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Why are all our prospects too slow or too small ?

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Old
08-25-2005, 09:09 AM
  #26
Suiteness
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macman
I agree, it's no great mystery. Toronto is probably the worst drafting team in the league, especially in the first two rounds. In Antropov we actually managed to find one of the very few players to come out the former Soviet bloc who can't skate.

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08-25-2005, 09:19 AM
  #27
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The way I see it is they're too skilled or underrated..

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08-25-2005, 09:43 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
Really, it isn't that bad.
Look at some of Toronto's first rounders since 1969:

Ernie Mosher (never played a game in the league)
George Ferguson
Bob Neely
Jack Valiquette
Don Ashby
Trevor Johansen
Jim Benning
Gary Nylund
Al Iafrate
Scott Pearson
Scott Thornton
Rob Pearson
Steve Bancroft
Drake Berehowsky
Brandon Convery
Grant Marshall
Landon Wilson
Eric Fichaud
Jeff Ware
Luca Cereda

When you strike out that many times in the first round, especially considering the good draft positions the Leafs had most of those years, it is that bad.

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Old
08-25-2005, 09:46 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macman
Look at some of Toronto's first rounders since 1969:

Ernie Mosher (never played a game in the league)
George Ferguson
Bob Neely
Jack Valiquette
Don Ashby
Trevor Johansen
Jim Benning
Gary Nylund
Al Iafrate
Scott Pearson
Scott Thornton
Rob Pearson
Steve Bancroft
Drake Berehowsky
Brandon Convery
Grant Marshall
Landon Wilson
Eric Fichaud
Jeff Ware
Luca Cereda

When you strike out that many times in the first round, especially considering the good draft positions the Leafs had most of those years, it is that bad.
What's wrong with Iafrate?

and where's the good picks like Wendel?

Subjective lists make baby Jesus cry.

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Old
08-25-2005, 09:47 AM
  #30
ULF_55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macman
Look at some of Toronto's first rounders since 1969:

Ernie Mosher (never played a game in the league)
George Ferguson
Bob Neely
Jack Valiquette
Don Ashby
Trevor Johansen
Jim Benning
Gary Nylund
Al Iafrate
Scott Pearson
Scott Thornton
Rob Pearson
Steve Bancroft
Drake Berehowsky
Brandon Convery
Grant Marshall
Landon Wilson
Eric Fichaud
Jeff Ware
Luca Cereda

When you strike out that many times in the first round, especially considering the good draft positions the Leafs had most of those years, it is that bad.
What do any of them have to do with the current management group?

Actually, they aren't all strike-outs. Many of those players had decent careers.

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08-25-2005, 09:51 AM
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macman
I agree, it's no great mystery. Toronto is probably the worst drafting team in the league, especially in the first two rounds. In Antropov we actually managed to find one of the very few players to come out the former Soviet bloc who can't skate.
Yet he did very well in the Russian league last season.

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Old
08-25-2005, 09:53 AM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
What do any of them have to do with the current management group?

Actually, they aren't all strike-outs. Many of those players had decent careers.

Look again. There were very few "decent careers" on this list.

However, a list of almost any team's first rounders will be a litany of mediocrity.

Obviously, with a few exceptions, first round choices are not much of a science. In all athletics, its difficult to predict success when drafting young players.

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08-25-2005, 09:54 AM
  #33
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Uh, Jim Benning was a defenseman who routinely scored 25+ points for us (51 points in 1983/1984, 44 points in 1984/1985). Actually, a lot of those players had very productive NHL careers. Did you just look at a list and mark down names you didn't recognize?


Last edited by Garbs: 08-25-2005 at 09:59 AM.
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Old
08-25-2005, 09:55 AM
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SSJTOM
What's wrong with Iafrate?

and where's the good picks like Wendel?

Subjective lists make baby Jesus cry.
Of course there were good picks, especially when you're picking No. 1 like they did in '85. You're bound to get it right occasionally, but by any objective measure the Leafs draft record has been abysmal. I can't believe anyone would even try to argue otherwise.

Iafrate was a complete headcase who never lived up to his vast potential.

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08-25-2005, 09:57 AM
  #35
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I can't believe anyone would even try to argue otherwise.
Nobody is arguing as much as they're saying, who really gives a damn who Toronto drafted in 1976?

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Old
08-25-2005, 10:12 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Garbs
Uh, Jim Benning was a defenseman who routinely scored 25+ points for us (51 points in 1983/1984, 44 points in 1994/1955). Actually, a lot of those players had very productive NHL careers. Did you just look at a list and mark down names you didn't recognize?
I was actually at the draft when Benning was picked, so yeah, I recognize the name. I also know he was taken sixth overall ahead of guys like Grant Fuhr, James Patrick and Al MacInnis and was pretty bad defensively.

Scott Thornton is one of the few guys on my list who you could reasonably say has had a productive career. But at third overall for a guy who has been a plugger his entire career, it wasn't a smart pick.

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08-25-2005, 10:14 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Recidivist
Look again. There were very few "decent careers" on this list.
Neely, Thornton, Berehowsky, Wilson, Iafrate, Marshall, Ferguson, Johanson all played multiple years in the NHL.

These players had good careers Quennville, Anderson, Muni, Boschman, Carlye, ...

There were lots of regular NHL players selected by the Leafs over these years. Mind you they've had their Brendls, Fatas, Tzachuks, Clearys in there as well.

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Old
08-25-2005, 10:27 AM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Yet he did very well in the Russian league last season.
I don't know about that. AK Bars cut him after he scored just twice and he latched on with Yaroslavl, where he potted four.

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Old
08-25-2005, 10:50 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
Neely, Thornton, Berehowsky, Wilson, Iafrate, Marshall, Ferguson, Johanson all played multiple years in the NHL.

These players had good careers Quennville, Anderson, Muni, Boschman, Carlye, ...

There were lots of regular NHL players selected by the Leafs over these years. Mind you they've had their Brendls, Fatas, Tzachuks, Clearys in there as well.

Most of these you mention had careers, but not particularly impressive ones. They were usually dispensible parts that could easily be replaced.

A first rounder, to be considered a successful first round pick, should be an important part of the team.

These guys you mention were no better than many picked in much lower rounds.

Mediocrities can always be found in the fifth round.

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08-25-2005, 10:52 AM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macman
I don't know about that. AK Bars cut him after he scored just twice and he latched on with Yaroslavl, where he potted four.
Antropov had 19 points in 26 games with Yaroslavl which was about the rate of their leading scorer and along with Yashin helped lead the team to the finals.

Reportedly he had very good offers to stay in Russia which I assume wouldn't be made to a guy who sucks and can't keep up.

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08-25-2005, 10:55 AM
  #41
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Scoring in the RSL isn't abundant, and Antropov was cut because wasn't AK bars the one signing a ton of all-stars like Lecavalier?

I remember articles about how they liked Antropov and he did well for them.

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08-25-2005, 10:56 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mooseOAK
Antropov had 19 points in 26 games with Yaroslavl which was about the rate of their leading scorer and along with Yashin helped lead the team to the finals.

Reportedly he had very good offers to stay in Russia which I assume wouldn't be made to a guy who sucks and can't keep up.
mooseOAK: I dare you to say something remotely critical about Toronto

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08-25-2005, 11:15 AM
  #43
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Shhhh don't ***** about Ferguson's drafting or MLSE will throw Rob Babcock at us.

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08-25-2005, 11:19 AM
  #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zamboner
mooseOAK: I dare you to say something remotely critical about Toronto
LOL

Antropov did play pretty decent for the RSL. The scoring is much lower.

Trivia question: Who was the 2nd leading scorer last season?

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08-25-2005, 11:22 AM
  #45
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Originally Posted by Zamboner
mooseOAK: I dare you to say something remotely critical about Toronto
The traffic sucks.

You can go away now.

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Old
08-25-2005, 11:25 AM
  #46
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK
The traffic sucks.

You can go away now.

I second the motion. All in favour signify by posting about something that will and can never occur.

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08-25-2005, 12:12 PM
  #47
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Folks,

The draft is a crapshoot unless you're drafting at the top of a draft where there is a consensus no. 1 like a Crosby, Lindros (everyone had him pegged as "The Next One"), Lemieux, or Lacavilier (I think he was the no. 1 overall his draft year).

Even then, it is not a given -- see Alexandre Daigle for exhibit A.

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08-25-2005, 12:23 PM
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macman
Look at some of Toronto's first rounders since 1969:

Ernie Mosher (never played a game in the league)
George Ferguson
Bob Neely
Jack Valiquette
Don Ashby
Trevor Johansen
Jim Benning
Gary Nylund
Al Iafrate
Scott Pearson
Scott Thornton
Rob Pearson
Steve Bancroft
Drake Berehowsky
Brandon Convery
Grant Marshall
Landon Wilson
Eric Fichaud
Jeff Ware
Luca Cereda

When you strike out that many times in the first round, especially considering the good draft positions the Leafs had most of those years, it is that bad.
Why is Al Iafrate on that list?

Nevermind, that question has already been asked.

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Old
08-25-2005, 12:39 PM
  #49
Macman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenadyan
Folks,

The draft is a crapshoot unless you're drafting at the top of a draft where there is a consensus no. 1 like a Crosby, Lindros (everyone had him pegged as "The Next One"), Lemieux, or Lacavilier (I think he was the no. 1 overall his draft year).

Even then, it is not a given -- see Alexandre Daigle for exhibit A.
Calling it a crapshoot just excuses inept drafting and poor management. Sure, luck plays a role but how do you explain how well a team like New Jersey drafts every year from where they usually are in the standings? They've put more of an emphasis on scouting than Toronto has and it shows.

The Leafs have finally recognized the need to draft better and have upgraded their scouting considerably. It's about time.

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Old
08-25-2005, 12:44 PM
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mithras
Just a couple of things...

Colaiacovo is now 6'1" & 205lbs That's not even near the area of small...

Wellwood was 0.1 sec slower than the AHL average at the All-star game last year. That isn't slow, he just isn't lightning fast...
You proved my point with Colo. But watch Wellwood, sure he has speed once he is moving, but he is slow to get moving and can't turn and go. He's not as slow as some suggest, but he is a little slow for the NHL. But then again look at Jason Allison

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