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Why are all our prospects too slow or too small ?

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Old
08-25-2005, 01:59 PM
  #51
Roy G Biv*
 
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Originally Posted by mooseOAK
The traffic sucks.

You can go away now.
Wow, did that hurt?

I think deep down, you think that the traffic is underrated.

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Old
08-25-2005, 02:02 PM
  #52
ULF_55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Macman
Calling it a crapshoot just excuses inept drafting and poor management. Sure, luck plays a role but how do you explain how well a team like New Jersey drafts every year from where they usually are in the standings? They've put more of an emphasis on scouting than Toronto has and it shows.

The Leafs have finally recognized the need to draft better and have upgraded their scouting considerably. It's about time.
New-Jersey Devils Draft History
8 F Rocky Trottier
18 D Ken Daneyko
6 R John MacLean
24 D Shawn Evans
2 C Kirk Muller
23 G Craig Billington
3 D Craig Wolanin
24 G Sean Burke
3 C Neil Brady
24 D Todd Copeland
2 L Brendan Shanahan
23 D Ricard Persson
12 D Corey Foster
23 L Jeff Christian
5 R Bill Guerin
18 C Jason Miller
26 C Jarrod Skalde
20 G Martin Brodeur
24 D David Harlock
29 R Chris Gotziaman
3 D Scott Niedermayer
11 L Brian Rolston
18 D Jason Smith
13 C Denis Pederson
25 L Vadim Sharifijanov
18 C Petr Sykora
10 D Lance Ward
24 G Jean-Francois Damphous
26 D Mike Van Ryn
27 C Scott Gomez
27 G Ari Ahonen
22 D David Hale
28 C Adrian Foster
17 C Zach Parise
20 C Travis Zajac
23 R Nicklas Bergfors

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Old
08-25-2005, 02:17 PM
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NyQuil
LOL

Antropov did play pretty decent for the RSL. The scoring is much lower.

Trivia question: Who was the 2nd leading scorer last season?
Alexei Kaygorodov

Trivia question:

Name the 2nd leading scorer on St. Petersburg SKA Russia that finished with 2 more goals then Kaygorodov ....

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Old
08-25-2005, 02:20 PM
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess
Alexei Kaygorodov

Trivia question:

Name the 2nd leading scorer on St. Petersburg SKA Russia that finished with 2 more goals then Kaygorodov ....
Pavel Vororororororbiev?

What do I win? Vodka?

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Old
08-25-2005, 02:26 PM
  #55
Rusty Shackleford
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zamboner
Pavel Vororororororbiev?

What do I win? Vodka?
I'd prefer Orange gin.

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Old
08-25-2005, 02:35 PM
  #56
Kenadyan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
New-Jersey Devils Draft History
8 F Rocky Trottier
18 D Ken Daneyko
6 R John MacLean
24 D Shawn Evans
2 C Kirk Muller
23 G Craig Billington
3 D Craig Wolanin
24 G Sean Burke
3 C Neil Brady
24 D Todd Copeland
2 L Brendan Shanahan
23 D Ricard Persson
12 D Corey Foster
23 L Jeff Christian
5 R Bill Guerin
18 C Jason Miller
26 C Jarrod Skalde
20 G Martin Brodeur
24 D David Harlock
29 R Chris Gotziaman
3 D Scott Niedermayer
11 L Brian Rolston
18 D Jason Smith
13 C Denis Pederson
25 L Vadim Sharifijanov
18 C Petr Sykora
10 D Lance Ward
24 G Jean-Francois Damphous
26 D Mike Van Ryn
27 C Scott Gomez
27 G Ari Ahonen
22 D David Hale
28 C Adrian Foster
17 C Zach Parise
20 C Travis Zajac
23 R Nicklas Bergfors
Okay, New Jersey did have/does have a good scouting department, but that list is somewhat deceptive. Muller, Wolanin, Shanahan, and Guerin were taken in the top five. The Neidermayer pick was courtesy of the Harold Ballard Leafs (come on, giving up your no. 1 pick for Tom Kurvers? Even I was pissed at the time that trade happened).

Getting Brodeur at #20 was a steal, and the past few drafts have been very productive for them (Gomez, Ahonen, Parise, Hale, and Zajac), but who were the players selected around these players? And where were the Leafs picking thses years? Also, Van Ryn never played for New Jersey (anyone remember the Van Ryn loophole which is now closed?)

In hindsight (which is ALWAYS 20/20), it's easy to go back and cherry pick each draft and say, well, the Leafs could have had so-and-so, but these are 18-year old kids (19 as of next season) were talking about, and even good scouting may not be able to see what they might become (Bertuzzi, Datsyuk).

I mentioned that New Jersey has good scouting and they have put $$ into it, but there is also some luck involved with their players as many teams passed on some of these guys (not just the Leafs).

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Old
08-25-2005, 02:50 PM
  #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zamboner
Pavel Vororororororbiev?

What do I win? Vodka?
Since you're answer is completely wrong I guess ..

I'll give you a second chance before I ridicule you ..

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Old
08-25-2005, 02:52 PM
  #58
ULF_55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenadyan
Okay, New Jersey did have/does have a good scouting department, but that list is somewhat deceptive. Muller, Wolanin, Shanahan, and Guerin were taken in the top five. The Neidermayer pick was courtesy of the Harold Ballard Leafs (come on, giving up your no. 1 pick for Tom Kurvers? Even I was pissed at the time that trade happened).

Getting Brodeur at #20 was a steal, and the past few drafts have been very productive for them (Gomez, Ahonen, Parise, Hale, and Zajac), but who were the players selected around these players? And where were the Leafs picking thses years? Also, Van Ryn never played for New Jersey (anyone remember the Van Ryn loophole which is now closed?)

In hindsight (which is ALWAYS 20/20), it's easy to go back and cherry pick each draft and say, well, the Leafs could have had so-and-so, but these are 18-year old kids (19 as of next season) were talking about, and even good scouting may not be able to see what they might become (Bertuzzi, Datsyuk).

I mentioned that New Jersey has good scouting and they have put $$ into it, but there is also some luck involved with their players as many teams passed on some of these guys (not just the Leafs).
Okay, taking the tack that was used for the Leafs:

New-Jersey Devils Draft History
8 F Rocky Trottier
24 D Shawn Evans
23 G Craig Billington
3 C Neil Brady
24 D Todd Copeland
23 D Ricard Persson
12 D Corey Foster
23 L Jeff Christian
18 C Jason Miller
26 C Jarrod Skalde
24 D David Harlock
29 R Chris Gotziaman
25 L Vadim Sharifijanov
10 D Lance Ward
24 G Jean-Francois Damphous
27 G Ari Ahonen
28 C Adrian Foster

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Old
08-25-2005, 02:54 PM
  #59
ULF_55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess
Since you're answer is completely wrong I guess ..

I'll give you a second chance before I ridicule you ..
Oh, oh, oh ...

Up your nose with a rubber ... horseshaaaaaack.

Mr. Carteeeer I know that one ...

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Old
08-25-2005, 02:57 PM
  #60
darrylsittler27
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Yes its true ,but in their defense...

Since we gave away niedermayer for kurvers of luongo for clark or a first rounder for an over paid washed up nolan toronto has thrown away as many picks as the other gm's could scoop and have been too stupid to stock up on 2nd rounders to replace the lost talent.Its not the scouting that has improved,its the stupid policies of Quinn(I dont like young guys) and other gm's.Even ferguson could help but throw away some picks.Of course it was proven as a short sighted mistake we are paying for now.We have no top flight young talent in the pipes.We try and pretend covo is the next bourque and steen is the next something,but on other teams they wouldnt build around these guys.They are number 2 line talents but not future stars.Ferguson also dropped the ball on Pronger the guy we have needed for 30 years.The goal of toronto is to get in the playoffs but not to win the cup.Philly gets forsberg,boston gets better as do some other teams.We just traded nolan,nieuwendyk,roberts,leetch for o'neill,lindros,kharkonov and allison.Our prospect pool is weak and thin.So another year of pretending,another year of early exit,another year of trading picks.I guess Ballards will said "the leafs must never win the cup!"

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Old
08-25-2005, 03:01 PM
  #61
Mess
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
Oh, oh, oh ...

Up your nose with a rubber ... horseshaaaaaack.

Mr. Carteeeer I know that one ...


Yes Yes Arnold I know you know the answer ..

This contest is open to know-it-all Trolls only though ..

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Old
08-25-2005, 03:02 PM
  #62
ULF_55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darrylsittler27
The goal of toronto is to get in the playoffs but not to win the cup.Philly gets forsberg,boston gets better as do some other teams.We just traded nolan,nieuwendyk,roberts,leetch for o'neill,lindros,kharkonov and allison.Our prospect pool is weak and thin.So another year of pretending,another year of early exit,another year of trading picks.I guess Ballards will said "the leafs must never win the cup!"
So I take it you'd like to put all your eggs in one basket like Clarke did with oft injured Forsberg? So you must really love the fact that JFj picked up 2 players with elite level abilities for the same price.

A healthy Forsberg -- iffy

vs

A healthy Allison and Lindros -- iffy

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Old
08-25-2005, 03:03 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess


Yes Yes Arnold I know you know the answer ..

This contest is open to know-it-all Trolls only though ..


but I studied for this one

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Old
08-25-2005, 03:51 PM
  #64
ULF_55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mess
Since you're answer is completely wrong I guess ..

I'll give you a second chance before I ridicule you ..
Does someone need a 6'2" hint?

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Old
08-25-2005, 03:59 PM
  #65
Rusty Shackleford
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I thought the question was for the Ottawa trolls.

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Old
08-25-2005, 04:20 PM
  #66
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ok look

the only reason the leafs have contended the last recent yrs is because they decided to spend money with the big boys for a change.

for years they didnt and we all know what happened during those times

its not just been an inability to draft solid players,sometimes they have, but their lack of confidence in the prospects and poor player development or lack of patience has been renowned, and in turn they trade them off to other teams where they often mysteriously end up developing suddenly into good players


now we cant spend any more than most teams, at least not noticeably, and will have to look to the young players to provide the neccessary depth to make us a contender


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Old
08-25-2005, 04:37 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by think/blue
Because if you want a combination of speed and size, you generally have to be drafting in the early 1st round.

When you start drafting in the 3rd or 4th rd it makes it difficult to secure such talent

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Old
08-25-2005, 09:16 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Vincent_TheGreat
But watch Wellwood, sure he has speed once he is moving, but he is slow to get moving and can't turn and go. He's not as slow as some suggest, but he is a little slow for the NHL.
I find it sad that Wellwood has been so bashed, put down and underrated that even Leaf fans are grasping for reasons to write him off.

Remember this: Quinn kept Wellwood over Boyes. But last time I checked, Quinn doesn't really like short skilled centers (Steve Sullivan?)

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08-26-2005, 07:28 AM
  #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightsol
I find it sad that Wellwood has been so bashed, put down and underrated that even Leaf fans are grasping for reasons to write him off.
I'm not. I've always like the guy and I hope he gets a chance to play regularly this year with talented linemates like Lindros and/or Allison.

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08-26-2005, 07:51 AM
  #70
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To answer the original post.

The leafs don't have many if any top talented rookies coming.
some will make the big club and I am sure the leaf fans will like at lease a few of them.

But thier is no side-stepping the issues. While the leafs were trading away draft choices and trying to win a cup this has depleated the farm system.
Other clubs have been stockpileing good draft choices along the way and on top of that 2 years worth of rookies will hit the other clubs this year.
In 6 months lots of leaf fans will be lamenting, "where did all these good rookies come form and why don't we have any"

For the next 2-4 years it's time to pay the piper for the leafs and thier is no way out. Yes JFJ will do his best to stay competitive but it's going to be a hard road for a while.

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08-26-2005, 09:48 AM
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLC
To answer the original post.

The leafs don't have many if any top talented rookies coming.
some will make the big club and I am sure the leaf fans will like at lease a few of them.

For the next 2-4 years it's time to pay the piper for the leafs and thier is no way out. Yes JFJ will do his best to stay competitive but it's going to be a hard road for a while.
I guess the big difference between the Leafs and some clubs is that there are fewer disappointments for the Leafs than teams that have highly touted prospects who fail.

Where some teams have a Fata, Brendl, B.Allen, Hainsey, Komisarek, Lars Jonsson, L.Ward who bust, the Leafs just have no one because they've dealt those selections to other teams.

Leaf fans know they have few prospects guaranteed to make the NHL and are prepared for that, whereas those other teams make fools of themselves talking about all their can't miss prospects that do.

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08-26-2005, 09:52 AM
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RLC
To answer the original post.

The leafs don't have many if any top talented rookies coming.
some will make the big club and I am sure the leaf fans will like at lease a few of them.

But thier is no side-stepping the issues. While the leafs were trading away draft choices and trying to win a cup this has depleated the farm system.
Other clubs have been stockpileing good draft choices along the way and on top of that 2 years worth of rookies will hit the other clubs this year.
In 6 months lots of leaf fans will be lamenting, "where did all these good rookies come form and why don't we have any"

For the next 2-4 years it's time to pay the piper for the leafs and thier is no way out. Yes JFJ will do his best to stay competitive but it's going to be a hard road for a while.
This year's potential rookies in Wellwood, Colaiacovo, and Steen have all shown themselves to be very talented.

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Old
08-26-2005, 11:05 AM
  #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ULF_55
I guess the big difference between the Leafs and some clubs is that there are fewer disappointments for the Leafs than teams that have highly touted prospects who fail.

Where some teams have a Fata, Brendl, B.Allen, Hainsey, Komisarek, Lars Jonsson, L.Ward who bust, the Leafs just have no one because they've dealt those selections to other teams.

Leaf fans know they have few prospects guaranteed to make the NHL and are prepared for that, whereas those other teams make fools of themselves talking about all their can't miss prospects that do.
Pfft, you just wait until Komisarek knocks out Allison, Lindros and Belfour with one ice-rattling mega-hit. He will then grow to the size of three stacked double-decker buses, walk through the side of the ACC, and rip the Hockey Hall of Fame out of the ground by its foundations. He'll then fly back to Montreal (he can fly now) and bring the Stanley Cup back to Québec.

You just wait.

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08-26-2005, 11:13 AM
  #74
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Pfft, you just wait until Komisarek knocks out Allison, Lindros and Belfour with one ice-rattling mega-hit. He will then grow to the size of three stacked double-decker buses, walk through the side of the ACC, and rip the Hockey Hall of Fame out of the ground by its foundations. He'll then fly back to Montreal (he can fly now) and bring the Stanley Cup back to Québec.

You just wait.


-----------

hahaha that was an excellent post - i laughed for 10 min at it.

The leafs have a few good prospects and will be trying to build a good network of scouts. You'll have to give them some time.

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Old
08-26-2005, 12:46 PM
  #75
ULF_55
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Originally Posted by rhettmatic
Pfft, you just wait until Komisarek knocks out Allison, Lindros and Belfour with one ice-rattling mega-hit. He will then grow to the size of three stacked double-decker buses, walk through the side of the ACC, and rip the Hockey Hall of Fame out of the ground by its foundations. He'll then fly back to Montreal (he can fly now) and bring the Stanley Cup back to Québec.

You just wait.
Boy, that is quite a claim ... Allison, Lindros and Belfour all getting demoted to the ECHL.


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