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KHL Contraction Part I (Mod Warning - Post #15)

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Old
02-18-2017, 07:57 PM
  #426
malkinfan
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I like to see Kuznya in. I would like to see more of the bigger teams loaning players to them though. Not done nearly enough.

Its a KHL farm system within the KHL, what an interesting concept, other teams need to utilize better. It would keep a lot of guys from going to the CHL if it was IMO.

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02-19-2017, 01:02 AM
  #427
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The key question with Kuznya is that they have one of the most successful and prolific hockey schools in Russia (along with Yaroslavl, Chelyabinsk and others), and also a great valley of trial for young players, which is a lot of guys are hesitant to call for them getting thrown out.

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02-21-2017, 09:46 AM
  #428
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Originally Posted by Acallabeth View Post
The key question with Kuznya is that they have one of the most successful and prolific hockey schools in Russia (along with Yaroslavl, Chelyabinsk and others), and also a great valley of trial for young players, which is a lot of guys are hesitant to call for them getting thrown out.
One of the top 5 hockey schools in all of Russia, and certainly the best in Siberia. If the rest of Siberia would follow the Kuznya model, there would certainly be a doubling or tripling of top level players like Kaprizov to the KHL and National Teams.

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02-27-2017, 06:23 AM
  #429
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Originally Posted by Yakushev72 View Post
One of the top 5 hockey schools in all of Russia, and certainly the best in Siberia. If the rest of Siberia would follow the Kuznya model, there would certainly be a doubling or tripling of top level players like Kaprizov to the KHL and National Teams.
http://nsk.gazprom-neft.ru/press_cen...s/hokkey_nvkz/

Kuznya needs some support, while some artificial projects should try to survive wihout it.

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02-27-2017, 01:05 PM
  #430
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Could anyone please explain me briefly why and how Novokuznetsk has the best hockey school in Siberia? I mean, why not Novosibirsk or any other big city? Is there any specific answer to that? They're indeed like a machine when it comes to producing players. Yes, Novokuznetsk is not a small village either but still it seems kinda interesting that not anywhere else but Novokuznetsk has the best prospects. Is it some kind of a heritage from Soviet era or what? For a team like Metallurg, which has been pretty below average consistently through its existence, it's interesting.

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02-27-2017, 01:25 PM
  #431
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Could anyone please explain me briefly why and how Novokuznetsk has the best hockey school in Siberia? I mean, why not Novosibirsk or any other big city? Is there any specific answer to that? They're indeed like a machine when it comes to producing players. Yes, Novokuznetsk is not a small village either but still it seems kinda interesting that not anywhere else but Novokuznetsk has the best prospects. Is it some kind of a heritage from Soviet era or what? For a team like Metallurg, which has been pretty below average consistently through its existence, it's interesting.
This question is tough to answer without knowing all the methods, but generally the answer to this question is efficiency.

Some schools have unlimited budgets and just waste it, others make the most out of what they have.

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02-27-2017, 01:44 PM
  #432
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This question is tough to answer without knowing all the methods, but generally the answer to this question is efficiency.

Some schools have unlimited budgets and just waste it, others make the most out of what they have.
Personnel might also be important?

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03-01-2017, 12:04 AM
  #433
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Personnel might also be important?
But what makes Novokuznetsk personnel any better then others?

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03-13-2017, 06:20 AM
  #434
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i'd like to see finns out. too bad it's putin's crony who's backing them.
Its absurd that Finland accepts bad hockey from the Jokers, while they are more than used to see the Battle Axes & HIFK put on clinics in Liiga.

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03-29-2017, 12:26 PM
  #435
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There are rumors that the KHL is working on schedule for 26 teams. Yugra, Novokuznetsk and Medvescak are out according to reports. Of course this schedule is alternative if... KHL has always worked with more scenarios of the schedule, so perharps it is not a big deal. On the other hand we know about Chernyshenko´s speeches on contraction of teams. We will see how KHL Board of Directors will decide.

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03-29-2017, 01:48 PM
  #436
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What a shame.
Who wants to have a Moscow/Leningrad league?
I do not.

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03-30-2017, 10:14 AM
  #437
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Wouldn't be too happy with that! Yugra really? Doesn't the local gov pay for them

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03-30-2017, 11:17 AM
  #438
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Originally Posted by Rigafan View Post
Wouldn't be too happy with that! Yugra really? Doesn't the local gov pay for them
If I know Yugra has NO problem with financing, so no problem here. Even Novokuznetsk was OK this season from financial point of view.

I will write how I see the latest development. Of course I can be wrong.

Lets sum it up:

- KHL has 29 teams, 22 from Russia. Cheryshenko said that 30 or 32 is maximum.
- KHL has applications from "several" teams from Europe and Asia
- KHL is working on new 7 year development strategy
- Chernyshenko said that contraction of teams is one of possible scenarios for the league
- Russian media reported that KHL is working on 26 teams schedule for next season

New Strategy will consist of various scenarios for development of Russian hockey (not only KHL´s) for next five to seven years. If KHL wants to keep expanding, some teams have to leave. So the league has to consider what teams are not attractive for the league from long term perspective. So you compare attendance, arena, tv demand and quality of broadcasting, city, financing of a club including the decrease of state funding, growing potential of a club, results on the ice etc. IMO the list of teams which can leave the league - Vityaz, Severstal, Lada (?), Neftekhimik, Yugra, Novokuznetsk. If we look at them closely, Vityaz has special connections, Severstal has solid results from latest seasons, Neftekhimik is from Tatarstan with good hockey support, Yugra has nothing, Novokuznetsk have always had problems (yes, they have developed many good players). Yugra and Novokuznetsk are leading teams for contraction, Neftekhimik, Severstal and Vityaz is second wave. I am not sure about Lada. We will see if the KHL has the same opinion. It is not easy decision.

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03-31-2017, 06:31 PM
  #439
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
If I know Yugra has NO problem with financing, so no problem here. Even Novokuznetsk was OK this season from financial point of view.

I will write how I see the latest development. Of course I can be wrong.

Lets sum it up:

- KHL has 29 teams, 22 from Russia. Cheryshenko said that 30 or 32 is maximum.
- KHL has applications from "several" teams from Europe and Asia
- KHL is working on new 7 year development strategy
- Chernyshenko said that contraction of teams is one of possible scenarios for the league
- Russian media reported that KHL is working on 26 teams schedule for next season

New Strategy will consist of various scenarios for development of Russian hockey (not only KHL´s) for next five to seven years. If KHL wants to keep expanding, some teams have to leave. So the league has to consider what teams are not attractive for the league from long term perspective. So you compare attendance, arena, tv demand and quality of broadcasting, city, financing of a club including the decrease of state funding, growing potential of a club, results on the ice etc. IMO the list of teams which can leave the league - Vityaz, Severstal, Lada (?), Neftekhimik, Yugra, Novokuznetsk. If we look at them closely, Vityaz has special connections, Severstal has solid results from latest seasons, Neftekhimik is from Tatarstan with good hockey support, Yugra has nothing, Novokuznetsk have always had problems (yes, they have developed many good players). Yugra and Novokuznetsk are leading teams for contraction, Neftekhimik, Severstal and Vityaz is second wave. I am not sure about Lada. We will see if the KHL has the same opinion. It is not easy decision.
Looking at the teams in that way makes sense, obviously it would still be a shame to see any of them leave.

To me the KHL is still a Russian league. Russian spans the continent so they are still the 'Kontinental' league even if it were all Russian teams! I hope they don't start to kick out teams just because they live in a less desireable location an import X Foreign team in their place.

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04-01-2017, 01:38 AM
  #440
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
So you compare attendance, arena, tv demand and quality of broadcasting, city, financing of a club including the decrease of state funding, growing potential of a club, results on the ice etc.
CSKA - out!

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04-01-2017, 04:40 AM
  #441
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Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
CSKA - out!
Yes, Russian journalists and fans like to do this comparison. But you can not take one or two factors and make a decision. You need to compare all factors (including those I did not mention). Then CSKA is on another level than Novokuznetsk. I agree that KHL should say to CSKA "build new arena within a year or two or play in another Moscow´s arena."

I want Russian (and European) hockey to be as best as possible. To achieve that goal you need a strong 2nd league as well. It is not a shame to play VHL. I am aware of an argument - "no KHL in my city, no hockey at all" As we know VHL team has to have hockey school, if not, then they cannot play VHL. So I would not worry about youth hockey. Russian youth hockey has another problems, not if Yugra or Novokuznetsk play KHL or VHL.

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04-01-2017, 05:14 AM
  #442
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Originally Posted by Rigafan View Post
Looking at the teams in that way makes sense, obviously it would still be a shame to see any of them leave.

To me the KHL is still a Russian league. Russian spans the continent so they are still the 'Kontinental' league even if it were all Russian teams! I hope they don't start to kick out teams just because they live in a less desireable location an import X Foreign team in their place.
If they really exclude Yugra and Novokuznetsk (or others), then Chernyshenko will be doing what he wanted in 2005. As you know Chernyshenko worked with Fetisov in 2005 to launch EuroAsian Hockey League (google ЕАХЛ). They planned to invite best 9 teams from Russian Superleague (the league had 18 teams per wiki), plus a team from Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan. Next season they planned to invite a Latvian team (postponed due to visa system), 2 Russian teams and someone from Europe to have 16 teams. This ЕАХЛ did not happen, but Chernyshenko has not changed his vision. Now KHL has 22 Russian clubs (compare to 9 or 11 as Chernyshenko wanted). Chernyshenko wants to realize his ЕАХЛ vision, nothing more. Yes, it will be very difficult, because no team wants to leave and there is a pressure from all sides. But if they want to develop, they need to exclude "not attractive teams." Of course, they wont decrease number of teams to 15 or 20, it is not possible anymore. Russian clubs will be substituted by European/Asian clubs, like it or not. But it wont happen within a season if Chernyshenko enforces his vision (big IF). Chernyshenko is a man who wants to go slowly, step by step, to consider all aspects, to make a vision for next couple of years for newcomers and league and then, as last step, to make a decision of expansion. Btw, this Chernyshenko´s personality is a reason why KHL wont join CHL soon if ever.


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04-02-2017, 11:03 AM
  #443
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Originally Posted by vorky View Post
If they really exclude Yugra and Novokuznetsk (or others), then Chernyshenko will be doing what he wanted in 2005. As you know Chernyshenko worked with Fetisov in 2005 to launch EuroAsian Hockey League (google ЕАХЛ). They planned to invite best 9 teams from Russian Superleague (the league had 18 teams per wiki), plus a team from Ukraine, Belarus and Kazakhstan. Next season they planned to invite a Latvian team (postponed due to visa system), 2 Russian teams and someone from Europe to have 16 teams. This ЕАХЛ did not happen, but Chernyshenko has not changed his vision. Now KHL has 22 Russian clubs (compare to 9 or 11 as Chernyshenko wanted). Chernyshenko wants to realize his ЕАХЛ vision, nothing more. Yes, it will be very difficult, because no team wants to leave and there is a pressure from all sides. But if they want to develop, they need to exclude "not attractive teams." Of course, they wont decrease number of teams to 15 or 20, it is not possible anymore. Russian clubs will be substituted by European/Asian clubs, like it or not. But it wont happen within a season if Chernyshenko enforces his vision (big IF). Chernyshenko is a man who wants to go slowly, step by step, to consider all aspects, to make a vision for next couple of years for newcomers and league and then, as last step, to make a decision of expansion. Btw, this Chernyshenko´s personality is a reason why KHL wont join CHL soon if ever.
I hope that this is the route they stick to. As interesting as a London based team would be for example I'd rather not see one in place or an already established team like say Yugra.

His vision is interesting so I hope it continues

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04-02-2017, 11:52 AM
  #444
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I wanted to say that Chernyshenko´s vision is a league of "best of best," but he inherited the league of "everyone", because Medvedev had to make a compromis in 2008 to launch the KHL. The KHL would be in much better shape if there was no teams like Novokuznetsk, Vityaz (goon era), Khimik etc from the start. Chernyshenko wants to "fix the problem", but it is not easy. There are two main opinions in Russian hockey community, 1st claims that the KHL is only for Russian clubs (or old CCCP) and 2nd that the KHL is international league where best of Europe, Asia and Russia should play. The 1st opinion is especially between veterans and regional hockey structures and some hockey journalists. The 2nd opinion is represented by KHL leadership (not all) and some FHR officials (who came to FHR from KHL with Rotenbergs). Not easy life for the KHL.

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04-02-2017, 01:50 PM
  #445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vorky View Post
The KHL would be in much better shape if there was no teams like Novokuznetsk, Vityaz (goon era), Khimik etc from the start.
I don't agree. The KHL will always be a mostly Russian league, and for this to happen, there needs to be a good number of KHL teams, otherwise no club will raise players. Novokuznetsk developed a lot of great players, Yugra has a very good school which is starting to pan out.
Hockey in Russia should be as spread as possible, Europe is not America, here in Europe no one gives a **** of they play in second league, having 5000 to 10000 attendance in second or third league is possible only in America.
No one really cares much about the VHL as much as no one cares about mestis, DEL2, or similar low-level competitions. Of course, fans a part, but local fans alone won't get you anywhere. Teams simply will not get even a fraction of funding should they play in the VHL and this would mean that hockey outside of Moscow and Leningrad will die.

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04-02-2017, 04:33 PM
  #446
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No one really cares much about the VHL as much as no one cares about mestis, DEL2, or similar low-level competitions. Of course, fans a part, but local fans alone won't get you anywhere. Teams simply will not get even a fraction of funding should they play in the VHL and this would mean that hockey outside of Moscow and Leningrad will die.
DEL2 and Allsvenskan actually have a solid following.

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04-03-2017, 02:07 AM
  #447
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Originally Posted by Urbanskog View Post
DEL2 and Allsvenskan actually have a solid following.
So has the VHL and I think the mestis too.
I'm not talking about fans, as I outlined.

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04-03-2017, 07:08 AM
  #448
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Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
I don't agree. The KHL will always be a mostly Russian league, and for this to happen, there needs to be a good number of KHL teams, otherwise no club will raise players. Novokuznetsk developed a lot of great players, Yugra has a very good school which is starting to pan out.
Hockey in Russia should be as spread as possible, Europe is not America, here in Europe no one gives a **** of they play in second league, having 5000 to 10000 attendance in second or third league is possible only in America.
No one really cares much about the VHL as much as no one cares about mestis, DEL2, or similar low-level competitions. Of course, fans a part, but local fans alone won't get you anywhere. Teams simply will not get even a fraction of funding should they play in the VHL and this would mean that hockey outside of Moscow and Leningrad will die.
I understand you, but it is exactly what I said. The KHL as a league for Russian teams or a league for leading Russian, European and Asian teams? Chernyshenko is for second option, but yes, there are people who would like to see only Russian teams in the KHL.

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04-03-2017, 07:29 AM
  #449
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So has the VHL and I think the mestis too.
I'm not talking about fans, as I outlined.
Allsvenskan has enough quality teams that theoretically the SHL could beas large as 20 teams. But they prefer to have better competition on all tiers.

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04-03-2017, 09:26 AM
  #450
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Originally Posted by Alessandro Seren Rosso View Post
Hockey in Russia should be as spread as possible, Europe is not America, here in Europe no one gives a **** of they play in second league, having 5000 to 10000 attendance in second or third league is possible only in America.
Actually there is plenty of evidence that in Europe, as long as you have a market fans will show up in whichever league you play, in all the sports. Same applies to not having a market, fans won't show up no matter in that league or stage you play.

This is quite honestly one of the worst arguments I've seen because actually in America nobody cares about "second leagues". That's why they love junior/college sports. Because even though the level is worse these guys are competing for the best at given category. Something like NBA-D only got over 1 million of viewers per season in 2010, that's still bellow 3 thousand average attendance. Their are doing better now but that's still nothing compared to college basketball, for example.

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