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Food for thought: Kovalchuk (merged)

View Poll Results: Is Kovalchuk worth 3-4 1st round picks?
Yes 96 56.14%
No 75 43.86%
Voters: 171. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-25-2005, 03:48 AM
  #1
Draft Guru
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Food for thought: Kovalchuk

The Rangers have a lot of cap space to play with over the next few years. They also have a solid group of prospects that will hopefully make an impact in the next few years. Does anyone feel it's worth it to offer a maximum multi-year contract to Kovalchuk and, if Atlanta doesn't match which might be possible, cough up 3-4 1st round picks? I certainly do. I'm sure if they front-load the contract, like they did to Sakic's, Atlanta wouldn't be able to match. And the average yearly salary of the contract is what is applied against the cap. So offering Kovalchuk a 39 million, 5 year contract (7.8 x 5), with $15 million the first year, just may be too rich for Atlanta's blood.

Saw an article by Garrioch in which he said there was rumors Sather may have been preparing to make an offer sheet to Nash and or Lecavalier (http://ottsun.canoe.ca/Sports/Hockey...84302-sun.html).

I'd personally take Kovalchuk over either of them.


Last edited by Draft Guru: 08-25-2005 at 04:03 AM.
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Old
08-25-2005, 03:58 AM
  #2
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There's our franchise player to build around for years to come.

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08-25-2005, 08:25 AM
  #3
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I guess it would depend

on if the offer is going to be made today or if it will be made next summer.

Reason being is that even with Kovalchuk we are still going to be a bad team this season and getting a high 1st would be great if then signing him to an offer sheet next season.

Also, I'd me more inclined to offer him the same money as Hossa at this point.

I'd also look to lock him up for longer than 5 years, maybe 6-7.

He'd still not reach 30 by the time that deal runs out.

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08-25-2005, 08:26 AM
  #4
Anthony Mauro
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Absolutely YES! He's not even in his prime yet, but has established himself as a superstar.

I'd be leery of giving him the max, but if you mean it just to make sure that ATL has no chance of matching I say fine. If the Rangers can somehow come away with a 23 yr old, 6'2'' 230 LW Superstar, I'd be more than happy to wrap those 4 first rounders and send em off. This guy is a sniper, but still puts up rounded numbers and is not one sided in goals like Nash. I love his fire and passion on the ice and believe that he has matured in time. I'm thinking we have basically a 10 percent chance of getting a guy comparable by ourselves in the draft, so why not do it? I say give DW a call, be courteous as much as possible, and then say you want Ilya and will not stop till he's NYR. If DW wants to sub in players or prospects for one or two of the firsts than so be it. I've been thinking of this for awhile now. The only thing that is a negative is the timing. This year seems too early to be picking up a guy of Ilya's ilk and would throw us into contention mode asap. But I still can't see how you dont do this. And I agree that I'd want Ilya before Nash and Thornton.

Also, you never know how Ilya feels about this Heatley trade. Maybe he'd like to try a change of scenery himself, as he's lost a good friend in Heater. From an interview, Kovalchuk had been in constant contact with Heatley over the lockout and I'm sure not playing with him now could be hard for him. You know the NY market=more $$.

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08-25-2005, 08:33 AM
  #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draft Guru
The Rangers have a lot of cap space to play with over the next few years. They also have a solid group of prospects that will hopefully make an impact in the next few years. Does anyone feel it's worth it to offer a maximum multi-year contract to Kovalchuk and, if Atlanta doesn't match which might be possible, cough up 3-4 1st round picks? I certainly do. I'm sure if they front-load the contract, like they did to Sakic's, Atlanta wouldn't be able to match. And the average yearly salary of the contract is what is applied against the cap. So offering Kovalchuk a 39 million, 5 year contract (7.8 x 5), with $15 million the first year, just may be too rich for Atlanta's blood.

Saw an article by Garrioch in which he said there was rumors Sather may have been preparing to make an offer sheet to Nash and or Lecavalier (http://ottsun.canoe.ca/Sports/Hockey...84302-sun.html).

I'd personally take Kovalchuk over either of them.
This sounds vaguely familure. Someone's ripping me off, hoo hoo. Tell em fred.

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08-25-2005, 09:07 AM
  #6
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theyll be able to match
they will match
and i dont know, hed be the one player right now in the league id consider doing that for (crosby too but not even remotely realistic)

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08-25-2005, 09:15 AM
  #7
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No way!

I might get ripped apart for this, but we should definitley not trade 4 first round draft picks for Ilya Kovalchuk. Maybe if we were a playoff team and needed that one big scorer to make our team complete, but right now we are one of the worst teams in the league, and we need more than a one dimensional scorer to get us off the ground.

Don't get me wrong I love Kovalchuk, I think he is one of the most exciting players to watch, but it's not someone I think we could (or should, rather) build our team around. Doing so would being like building our team around a Bure or Fleury, players who are good but don't win you hockey games. Don't we already have Jaromir Jagr? He is just a good of a scorer, more experienced, more to offer in other areas and although older shows no sign of slowing down anytime soon.

I would much rather go out and either draft or acquire a Sakic-Thorton-Lecavalier-Spezza-Heatley type of player. I feel those are the players you want as your cornerstones to help build a championship team. Call me a traditionalist but I really think you need that gamebreaking center to headline your team (although of course Heatley is not.)

Futhermore I don't think it would even be possible with other teams who would probably be more willing to pay more and give up draft picks of which would be higher in the order.

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08-25-2005, 09:21 AM
  #8
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Not on this Rangers team...

3-4 #1 picks could be a couple top liners and a decent defenseman. If the Rangers had a lot more depth in terms of top-level prospects, yes, but they do not. I think Kovalchuk's a huge talent, albeit a one-dimensional player, but that is not right for the Rangers.

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08-25-2005, 09:35 AM
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dakose
I might get ripped apart for this, but we should definitley not trade 4 first round draft picks for Ilya Kovalchuk. Maybe if we were a playoff team and needed that one big scorer to make our team complete, but right now we are one of the worst teams in the league, and we need more than a one dimensional scorer to get us off the ground.
You'll only get ripped apart by the childish ones. Others like to discuss like normal people.

I see some flaws in that logic however. Trading 4 draft picks while seems like a lot, is much less when you factor in the risk and uncertainty of them. Using the Rangers as an example, they've had first round picks but haven't really gotten a player of Kovalchuk's caliber, or a top line forward as it doesn't have to be Ilya. I'd take my chances getting a proven guy like Kovalchuk and look to deal for a first here and there in the next four years. Actually Kovalchuk is exactly what this team needs and lacks. We have no legitimate player/prospect that can step in and be the face of the team. On offense, we have questionmarks in Dawes/Jessiman/Korpikoski. This future team will be so full of character and two way play that even if Kovalchuk hasn't fixed his one dimensional problems, it wouldn't be that big of a deal. All I know is the guy is ELECTRIC.

Quote:
Don't get me wrong I love Kovalchuk, I think he is one of the most exciting players to watch, but it's not someone I think we could (or should, rather) build our team around. Doing so would being like building our team around a Bure or Fleury, players who are good but don't win you hockey games. Don't we already have Jaromir Jagr? He is just a good of a scorer, more experienced, more to offer in other areas and although older shows no sign of slowing down anytime soon..
I guess its a matter of preference. That and the fact that most teams want to keep those kind of two way guys with offensive flair. Actually, to nitpick Kovalchuk is more than Jagr and Bure. He's those two combined; he has the blinding speed and finesse moves of Bure and the physical size and strength of Jagr. He's someone that comes along once in a blue moon. We're not talking about Ovechkin here. (Had to throw in my cents of Kovalchuk>>>Ovechkin LOL)

Quote:
I would much rather go out and either draft or acquire a Sakic-Thorton-Lecavalier-Spezza-Heatley type of player. I feel those are the players you want as your cornerstones to help build a championship team. Call me a traditionalist but I really think you need that gamebreaking center to headline your team (although of course Heatley is not.).
I know you said "type", but if you say we should stay away from Kovalchuk because of said reasons, Spezza should be stayed away from even more. Like I said before, I think teams will go through a wall to ensure a captain, offensive whiz like Thornton/LeCavalier will not escape their grips. And I'm not sure even ATL wouldn't do that for Kovalchuk. But he's still on the market and NYR lack a premium forward greatly.

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08-25-2005, 09:39 AM
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
3-4 #1 picks could be a couple top liners and a decent defenseman. If the Rangers had a lot more depth in terms of top-level prospects, yes, but they do not. I think Kovalchuk's a huge talent, albeit a one-dimensional player, but that is not right for the Rangers.
It seems as though this is one of the most argued things here. That the Rangers are constructed to make a run at the playoffs yet again, will miss out, and end up with a 7-13 slot.

What if those people are right? That totally kills the idea of getting a couple top liners. And we have decent defensemen already in Tyutin, Kondratiev, Staal, and Sauer.

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08-25-2005, 09:40 AM
  #11
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No, although I think he'd be worth the picks... I'm not convinced that it's wise to use 20% of your salary on one player. In hockey you NEED a team... not even Iginla got max.

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08-25-2005, 09:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balej's Dance
It seems as though this is one of the most argued things here. That the Rangers are constructed to make a run at the playoffs yet again, will miss out, and end up with a 7-13 slot.

What if those people are right? That totally kills the idea of getting a couple top liners. And we have decent defensemen already in Tyutin, Kondratiev, Staal, and Sauer.
That's why we need to stink it up royally! Get Nylander out of here! Those types will not win get us a good pick OR into the playoffs.

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08-25-2005, 09:46 AM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Balej's Dance
It seems as though this is one of the most argued things here. That the Rangers are constructed to make a run at the playoffs yet again, will miss out, and end up with a 7-13 slot.

What if those people are right? That totally kills the idea of getting a couple top liners. And we have decent defensemen already in Tyutin, Kondratiev, Staal, and Sauer.
I'll just repost what was written another thread.

I don't like the two prong approach to rebuilding. We are getting absolutly awful draft picks because we are trying to make the playoffs and that is resulting in lower caliber players picked during the draft (not to mention an awful drafting team in the past).

Having said that; I believe that Sather will continue this approach but will also add aspect. I am guessing that Sather is currently in the market to sign 2 big RFA's. This would go along with the approach he currently has because we will keep getting awful picks (between 7-12) [which he'll be willing to lose in an RFA deal] trying to make the playoffs and will instantly address the lack of forward prospects this team currently has.

Look at the last 10 years of Ranger 1st round drafting, let me know if we drafted any player that has any kind of impact in the NHL. We have awful drafting and I think those picks would be better used in a RFA that has already prooved themselves.

1995: None (Christian Dube in the 2nd)
1996: Jeff Brown (22nd)
1997: Stefan Cherneski (19th) [Actually could of been something]
1998: Manny Malhotra (7th)
1999: Pavel Brendl and Lundmark (4th and 9th)
2000: None (Filip Novak in the 2nd)
2001: Dan Blackburn (10th) see Cherneski
2002: None (Lee Falardeau in the 2nd)
2003: Hugh Jessiman (12th)
2004: Al Montoya (6th)
2005: Marc Staal (12th)

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08-25-2005, 09:57 AM
  #14
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Balej...

if the Rangers make it to the playoffs, it will be on the strength of Jagr, Nylander, Rucinsky, Rucchin, and Straka, among others...they still need to pline talent that's under 30, or 25, or 20. That fact doesn't change.

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08-25-2005, 10:10 AM
  #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
if the Rangers make it to the playoffs, it will be on the strength of Jagr, Nylander, Rucinsky, Rucchin, and Straka, among others...they still need to pline talent that's under 30, or 25, or 20. That fact doesn't change.
I'm not sure I understand what your saying. Kovalchuk wouldnt be this "plined talent"?

For 4 drafts, you wouldn't have a 1st. Not really earth shattering, or atleast I think, as this team could get a highly regarded player on their list anyways. Sauer woulda went 16th had Staal not slipped, and we got him 45th. And Sather could always find alternative ways to pick up a 1st, sure seems like other teams have done alright while giving up their first round picks. And they weren't even dealt for a young guy like Ilya.

I feel good about these last 5 drafts. 2004 was a monster one in the respect of just getting alot of players and hoping some stick. 2005 was big as well considering the draft was stripped of two rounds. We have a lot of players now, and can focus on getting quality now IMO.

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08-25-2005, 10:13 AM
  #16
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depends

If the rangers were going to have high 1st rounds picks (maybe 3 in the top ten) then i dont think it would be worth it. If the first round picks were near the bottom of the first round then yea i would be more apt to sign him. I think its more likely that we would have lower first round picks.. i would be against this.

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08-25-2005, 10:34 AM
  #17
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7.8? Hells no. I would offer him $6 million per season, maybe a drop more. But he is worth the 3-4 first round picks.

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08-25-2005, 10:47 AM
  #18
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For four drafts...

the Rangers have no first, right? OK...fast-forward to three seasons from now... Jessiman's not a stud...Korpokoski's young...who are the other top line prospects in the Rangers organization? Bruce Graham? You just went three seasons without increasing the odds that you will have top six forwards. You're relying on Three or four guys working out, have Kovalchuk, and fill the rest of the top six with mercenaries - the same scenario that hasn't worked for yeasr. Not having four number 1's is huge - I cannot think of any successful NHL team that has gone without four straight #1 picks. The Rangers' top line talent is thin. At this juncture, it's a huge gamble not worth taking. Now, if Lundmark plays well this season, and Balej, and Immonen and Jessiman tears it up in the AHL, and Prucha looks good, and Dawes looks good, and Korpikoski progress, as well as others, then maybe you take a chance. Right now, I think each one has something to prove this season (Lundmark and Balej coming off low point seasons, Jessiman being injured, Dawes trying to take his small frame to the next level, ditto Prucha, and on a different continent, and Korps making it with the big guys, and even Graham not progessing points-wise and having a couple injuries). To me, it's not the time.

I feel OK about the last five drafts. There seems to be a heck of a lot of picks - of course in the second and third rounds. But there's much skepticism too, especially in those rounds. And, Sather's draft record doesn't make me feel any better - although, again, he did have a lot of picks and some decent slots. But still, I think it's a tough group to evaluate and sometime mid-season or so I think the Rangers will be in a better position to evaluate and make decisions.

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08-25-2005, 10:48 AM
  #19
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i would trade 5 1st rounders for him. reason being? the rangers cant draft. look at our 1st round picks from the last 5 years. its a joke. brendl, malhotra, lundmark etc. they all suck.

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08-25-2005, 11:19 AM
  #20
Anthony Mauro
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch
the Rangers have no first, right? OK...fast-forward to three seasons from now... Jessiman's not a stud...Korpokoski's young...who are the other top line prospects in the Rangers organization? Bruce Graham? You just went three seasons without increasing the odds that you will have top six forwards. You're relying on Three or four guys working out, have Kovalchuk, and fill the rest of the top six with mercenaries - the same scenario that hasn't worked for yeasr. Not having four number 1's is huge - I cannot think of any successful NHL team that has gone without four straight #1 picks.
See thats the kind of thinking thats gonna be hard to fix. Who says there gonna be "mercenaries"? Does every perennial playoff team have all their players in the top six drafted?

Tampa Bay drafted LeCavalier--someone who wasn't hard to pick-- and had very good luck with Richards at 64. TB got very lucky turning St. Louis out. Stillman, Modin were gotten thru trades. Fedotenko was gotten for Pitkanen for gods sakes!

To say a teams rebuild to become a consistent competitor is based solely on first round draft picks is nearsighted. Now if you don't think Sather can construct a team like TB did, well I can't help you with that. I'm not so sure myself. But if he gets a guy like Kovalchuk and surrounds him well, first round picks will mean jacksquat IMO. Its unchartered territory, thats why you have never seen it. Rangers haven't been in a position to select a gamebreaking player, so now you have to make ground. If we truly won't be in contention for a top 5 pick this year there's no point in passing up the opportunity to get Ilya.

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08-25-2005, 11:35 AM
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dakose
I might get ripped apart for this, but we should definitley not trade 4 first round draft picks for Ilya Kovalchuk. .
I agree, I would no way in hell give up 3/4 first rounders for him. yes Kovalchuk is a superstar already, but I would never give away something like that for just 1 guy. Those 3 or 4 first rounders will most likely become top six fowards and top 2 pairing d-man either or. So give up 4 top line players for one, , who is to say NYR cant a Kovalchuk with one of them picks.It is not impossible.

How could anyone want to take 3 or 4 picks a way for one guy, that is completely absurd to even think. This team is in a rebuild and given the point nYR really has not top line prospects this trade would give us Kovlachuk and who in the hell would he play with? Plus it sets this team back years to acquire the top flight players they need.

Hockey is a team sport what do you people think Kovalchuk is going to bring a cup to NY individually, he hasnt done it in Atlanta he wont do it here. Yes he could be a big piece to build around, but he is not worth 4 first rounders.

 
Old
08-25-2005, 11:37 AM
  #22
in the hall
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BALEJS DANCE

- you said kovalchuk is on the market?
are you just saying that or is he really on the market? what is wrong with the Thrashers?

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08-25-2005, 11:41 AM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by in the hall
BALEJS DANCE

- you said kovalchuk is on the market?
are you just saying that or is he really on the market? what is wrong with the Thrashers?
Oh no, I mean on the market as a RFA and able to be poached. I said it like that because most of the others have signed-Thornton, Iginla, Hossa, Heatley- and IK is one of the few quality ones left.

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08-25-2005, 12:07 PM
  #24
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i would consider giving up 4 first rounders for a guy like him...but not this year. after next years draft i'd do it. this should be our bottoming out year (hopefully) so i'd rather not lose out on a potential top 5 pick this year as well as 3 more first rounders.

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08-25-2005, 12:16 PM
  #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NYC Aim 4588
I agree, I would no way in hell give up 3/4 first rounders for him. yes Kovalchuk is a superstar already, but I would never give away something like that for just 1 guy. Those 3 or 4 first rounders will most likely become top six fowards and top 2 pairing d-man either or. So give up 4 top line players for one, , who is to say NYR cant a Kovalchuk with one of them picks.It is not impossible.
I'll again make this point; who in the last 10 years of NYR 1st round drafting has turned out to be a top six forward or top two d-pairing? I am using the past to predict the future not just ignoring the past and hoping for a better future. I find it hard to believe that one of the four NYR first rounders would turn out to be an Ilya class of player. Also take into consideration that Sather isn't going to stop trying to make the playoffs (giving us a 7-12 pick) than I find it even harder to agree.

Let me try and play odds.

Let's say for the next four years there is only one Ilya class of player. That's means we have 4 chances to beat the 3.33% chance. Now add to that that given the nature of our GM; we will not be in the top 5 of the draft. I very much doubt that you will find an Ilya class of player (since the NHL went to 30 teams) in the 6-30th position over the next 4 years. I haven't done the research but I doubt it. So you think we can beat those odds; seeing how our drafting squad hasn't done it in atleast the last 10 years.

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