HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Non-Sports > Political Discussion - "on-topic & unmoderated"
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Political Discussion - "on-topic & unmoderated" Rated PG13, unmoderated but threads must stay on topic - that means you can flame each other all you want as long as it's legal

Ontario Politics - Provincial Election June 12, 2014

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-07-2014, 01:05 PM
  #76
Wetcoaster
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Out There
Posts: 54,870
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
I find that highly unlikely.

I don't know what liquor and beer store workers make these days.. but the second it goes private they will start being replaced by minimum wagers and self service on the private side and the province will surely notice less income tax and other consumption taxes from those people losing their jobs / having lower incomes.

Pricing will most likely come down on many items which will affect the amount the province is collecting on GST etc. included in the price of sales as well.

I would be stunned if it was revenue neutral.
Prepare to be stunned.

If anything it will result in more revenue because their will not be expenses of running the wholesale and retail distribution system - think cigarettes and gasoline.

And their is nothing to prevent the government from raising taxes on liquor.

Wetcoaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2014, 01:10 PM
  #77
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,854
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Prepare to be stunned.

If anything it will result in more revenue because their will not be expenses of running the wholesale and retail distribution system - think cigarettes and gasoline.
Those costs would still be baked in at smaller individual scales by all the private operators.

They don't disappear just because a someone else is doing it.


Quote:
And their is nothing to prevent the government from raising taxes on liquor.
Why would they need to do that if it was revenue neutral?

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2014, 01:12 PM
  #78
Do Make Say Think
& Yet & Yet
 
Do Make Say Think's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 34,620
vCash: 50
I see no reason why it couldn't be revenue neutral

As Wetcoaster just said there are a lot of expenses incurred from running these businesses: lose revenue but lose costs as well by dumping the LCBO

Lower prices generally leads to increased consumption

The best way to get out of debt is through growth and increased consumption is a great way to get there

Do Make Say Think is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2014, 01:18 PM
  #79
Wetcoaster
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Out There
Posts: 54,870
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Those costs would still be baked in at smaller individual scales by all the private operators.

They don't disappear just because a someone else is doing it.
They do disappear for the taxpayer.

The point is the provincial government would not be incurring the costs for sourcing buying, warehousing, distribution and retail sales of liquor. That would be borne by the private sector.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Why would they need to do that if it was revenue neutral?
Increase revenue - think cigarettes and gasoline.

Wetcoaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2014, 01:18 PM
  #80
Wetcoaster
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Out There
Posts: 54,870
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Do Make Say Think View Post
I see no reason why it couldn't be revenue neutral

As Wetcoaster just said there are a lot of expenses incurred from running these businesses: lose revenue but lose costs as well by dumping the LCBO

Lower prices generally leads to increased consumption

The best way to get out of debt is through growth and increased consumption is a great way to get there
There would not be a loss of revenue, just expenses.

Wetcoaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2014, 01:25 PM
  #81
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,854
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Do Make Say Think View Post
I see no reason why it couldn't be revenue neutral

As Wetcoaster just said there are a lot of expenses incurred from running these businesses: lose revenue but lose costs as well by dumping the LCBO
Sure there is the possibility - it just depends on whether the savings in cost will make up for the losses elsewhere.

Who has the numbers and where did they get them?

I really just think there are much larger fish to fry at the moment.


Quote:
Lower prices generally leads to increased consumption

The best way to get out of debt is through growth and increased consumption is a great way to get there

Which is great if you aren't also the one picking up the additional healthcare costs associated with increased consumption of alcohol.

Something which I am sure will be left out of the numbers.

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2014, 01:25 PM
  #82
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,854
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
There would not be a loss of revenue, just expenses.
Where are your numbers?

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2014, 01:37 PM
  #83
beowulf
Not a nice guy.
 
beowulf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 44,704
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to beowulf
Ohh Hudak....

And in election campaigns, Hudak is downright cringe-worthy.
Here's an example: On Monday, Hudak participated at an event at the MetalWorks, a recording studio which has received funding from the Ontario Music Fund. A photo-op supporting Canadian musicians was a good idea, but there was a bit of a problem: Hudak's Tories voted against the fund.Certainly, Hudak's handlers should have known better than to schedule such a campaign stop but Hudak, who is supposed to be a seasoned political pro, didn't handle it very well.

Things got even worse.
One of the PC's main themes of this election campaign is corporate tax breaks over corporate welfare. Journalists quickly pointed out, however, that one of his campaign stops on Tuesday was at a company that received $50,000 from the federal government.
It didn't stop there.
According to the Toronto Star, Hudak couldn't answer a question about his other big theme: jobs.
"When asked what Ontario’s unemployment rate is, he could not provide a number‎ at first, only that it was above the national average. On a second go around, he said it was more than 7 per cent.
"As of February, the Ontario unemployment rate is 7.3 per cent, above the national average of 6.9 per cent."
It's still early in the campaign, so Hudak does have a chance to redeem himself.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/cana...161404046.html

beowulf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2014, 01:38 PM
  #84
htpwn
Registered User
 
htpwn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Poland
Posts: 16,197
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Prepare to be stunned.

If anything it will result in more revenue because their will not be expenses of running the wholesale and retail distribution system - think cigarettes and gasoline.
The wholesale and retail distribution system turned over a $1.7 billion dividend to the Province last year.

That's not taxes, just a cut of the profit that the LCBO makes.

Quote:
And their is nothing to prevent the government from raising taxes on liquor.
Wouldn't that raise the price of liqueur and thus hurt consumers?

From my perspective, the LCBO is a case of "If ain't broke..."

It is a well-run organization that turns billions over to the Provincial Treasury annually.

Is it possible for a private model to be revenue neutral? In theory. Again, though, why is such a risk necessary? To suit ideological ends?

I said earlier that I don't trust the P.C.'s but does anybody trust anyone in this cast to be able to competently pull something like this off?

htpwn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2014, 01:39 PM
  #85
Gobias Industries
Registered User
 
Gobias Industries's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,203
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by htpwn View Post
The wholesale and retail distribution system turned over a $1.7 billion dividend to the Province last year.

That's not taxes, just a cut of the profit that the LCBO makes.



Wouldn't that raise the price of liqueur and thus hurt consumers?

From my perspective, the LCBO is a case of "If ain't broke..."

It is a well-run organization that turns billions over to the Provincial Treasury annually.

Is it possible for a private model to be revenue neutral? Theoretically, but I don't trust any of the cast (and especially, as I mentioned earlier, the Progressive Conservatives) to handle such a delicate process competently.
It is broke, it's inconvenient.

Gobias Industries is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2014, 01:40 PM
  #86
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,854
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
They do disappear for the taxpayer.
So does the profit it generates.

Or do you think that the private guys are going to do it out of the goodness of their heart?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
It is broke, it's inconvenient.
I don't see anyone going without booze.

Much bigger fish to fry, imo.

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2014, 01:42 PM
  #87
beowulf
Not a nice guy.
 
beowulf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 44,704
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to beowulf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
It is broke, it's inconvenient.
I don't think that counts as being "broken"

beowulf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2014, 01:47 PM
  #88
Gobias Industries
Registered User
 
Gobias Industries's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,203
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
I don't think that counts as being "broken"
Well having just spent a few weeks in Europe, I sure as hell find it to be.

I swear it feels like I'm living in a police state with how we treat alcohol compared to places in Spain.

Gobias Industries is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2014, 01:50 PM
  #89
htpwn
Registered User
 
htpwn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Toronto
Country: Poland
Posts: 16,197
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
It is broke, it's inconvenient.
People have been living with that minor inconvenience all their lives.

How many give it a second thought?

htpwn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2014, 01:58 PM
  #90
Wetcoaster
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Out There
Posts: 54,870
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Where are your numbers?
Why do you need numbers?

You are pulling significant expenses incurred by government out of the equation - the revenue stream (i.e. taxes) continues.

No more extensive wholesale/retail infrastructure, no management/employee wages, salaries and benefits, etc.

Wetcoaster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2014, 01:59 PM
  #91
beowulf
Not a nice guy.
 
beowulf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Ottawa
Country: Canada
Posts: 44,704
vCash: 500
Send a message via MSN to beowulf
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
Well having just spent a few weeks in Europe, I sure as hell find it to be.

I swear it feels like I'm living in a police state with how we treat alcohol compared to places in Spain.
Don't even have to go to Europe for easier access, just over in Quebec it is a fair bit easier, even with it being government run. Heck Quebec has different levels of SAQ stores which I have not see here in Ontario. They have SAQ Classic which is the most common, good size and selection with normal business hours. There is the SAQ Sélection which also has normal business hours but is much larger with much more selection.

The most interesting one is the SAQ Express which are small, stocked with the most popular products usually, but have special business hours.

So while an SAQ Classic or Sélection's business hours look like this

BUSINESS HOURS

Sunday 12:00 to 17:00
Monday 10:00 to 18:00
Tuesday 10:00 to 18:00
Wednesday 10:00 to 18:00
Thursday 10:00 to 21:00
Friday 10:00 to 21:00
Saturday 09:30 to 17:00

The Express' look like this

BUSINESS HOURS

Sunday 11:00 to 22:00
Monday 11:00 to 22:00
Tuesday 11:00 to 22:00
Wednesday 11:00 to 22:00
Thursday 11:00 to 22:00
Friday 11:00 to 22:00
Saturday 11:00 to 22:00

beowulf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2014, 02:06 PM
  #92
Do Make Say Think
& Yet & Yet
 
Do Make Say Think's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 34,620
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
There would not be a loss of revenue, just expenses.
The LCBO has revenue though and I have to think runs a profit

Dumping the LCBO would necessarily entail a loss of revenue for the government

I don't think the LCBO runs a deficit

In the long run it could be revenue neutral or even positive but in the short term I think the government would lose out on money as the market adapts

Do Make Say Think is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2014, 02:09 PM
  #93
BraveCanadian
Registered User
 
BraveCanadian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,854
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wetcoaster View Post
Why do you need numbers?
To see if you are just seeing unicorns and rainbows based on opinion or if there are any facts/estimates backing up your opinion.


Quote:
You are pulling significant expenses incurred by government out of the equation - the revenue stream (i.e. taxes) continues.
Right now taxes are not the only part of the revenue they get.

Quote:
No more extensive wholesale/retail infrastructure, no management/employee wages, salaries and benefits, etc.
Yes and also no more profit from sales.

BraveCanadian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2014, 02:14 PM
  #94
CaptainCrunch67
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,707
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by beowulf View Post
Ohh Hudak....

And in election campaigns, Hudak is downright cringe-worthy.
Here's an example: On Monday, Hudak participated at an event at the MetalWorks, a recording studio which has received funding from the Ontario Music Fund. A photo-op supporting Canadian musicians was a good idea, but there was a bit of a problem: Hudak's Tories voted against the fund.Certainly, Hudak's handlers should have known better than to schedule such a campaign stop but Hudak, who is supposed to be a seasoned political pro, didn't handle it very well.

Things got even worse.
One of the PC's main themes of this election campaign is corporate tax breaks over corporate welfare. Journalists quickly pointed out, however, that one of his campaign stops on Tuesday was at a company that received $50,000 from the federal government.
It didn't stop there.
According to the Toronto Star, Hudak couldn't answer a question about his other big theme: jobs.
"When asked what Ontario’s unemployment rate is, he could not provide a number‎ at first, only that it was above the national average. On a second go around, he said it was more than 7 per cent.
"As of February, the Ontario unemployment rate is 7.3 per cent, above the national average of 6.9 per cent."
It's still early in the campaign, so Hudak does have a chance to redeem himself.

https://ca.news.yahoo.com/blogs/cana...161404046.html
I'm surprised that the Conservatives and NDP haven't gone after the Liberal's track record corruption and outright incompetance, and their fairy tail election promises.

As someone on the outside looking in, I think this should be a really interesting campaign that borders on nasty.

Unfortunately I kind of feel bad for the choices that people in Ontario have, none of them are very good.

CaptainCrunch67 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2014, 02:22 PM
  #95
IWD
...
 
IWD's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 5,845
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
Well having just spent a few weeks in Europe, I sure as hell find it to be.

I swear it feels like I'm living in a police state with how we treat alcohol compared to places in Spain.
I'm not sure using Spain to slam the LCBO is a good idea. The Spaniards could do with a little more booze regulation. There are some serious booze-related issues here, many of which are related to their high-unemployment and partying-until-6-and-then-driving-home practices.

IWD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2014, 02:26 PM
  #96
IWD
...
 
IWD's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 5,845
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch67 View Post
I'm surprised that the Conservatives and NDP haven't gone after the Liberal's track record corruption and outright incompetance, and their fairy tail election promises.

As someone on the outside looking in, I think this should be a really interesting campaign that borders on nasty.

Unfortunately I kind of feel bad for the choices that people in Ontario have, none of them are very good.
Yep. The Liberals have scandals up the ass, the PC's are radical wing-wingers, and the NDP government would be short-term pain for long-term gain (which no one is interested in).

Those of us who were fed up have left the country altogether.

IWD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2014, 02:44 PM
  #97
Gobias Industries
Registered User
 
Gobias Industries's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 12,203
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by IWD View Post
I'm not sure using Spain to slam the LCBO is a good idea. The Spaniards could do with a little more booze regulation. There are some serious booze-related issues here, many of which are related to their high-unemployment and partying-until-6-and-then-driving-home practices.
I'm not advocating a Spanish style of regulation, but somewhere in the middle.

I saw it first hand in Granada, man they party there.

Gobias Industries is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2014, 03:14 PM
  #98
Do Make Say Think
& Yet & Yet
 
Do Make Say Think's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 34,620
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by IWD View Post
Yep. The Liberals have scandals up the ass, the PC's are radical wing-wingers, and the NDP government would be short-term pain for long-term gain (which no one is interested in).

Those of us who were fed up have left the country altogether.
How would the NDP be short-term pain for long-term gain?

Do Make Say Think is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2014, 03:21 PM
  #99
IWD
...
 
IWD's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 5,845
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gobias Industries View Post
I'm not advocating a Spanish style of regulation, but somewhere in the middle.

I saw it first hand in Granada, man they party there.
Yeah, they're really hardcore. I usually go to bed by 1 at the latest, and they're usually not leaving home until at least 2.

IWD is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-07-2014, 03:27 PM
  #100
IWD
...
 
IWD's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Country: United Kingdom
Posts: 5,845
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Do Make Say Think View Post
How would the NDP be short-term pain for long-term gain?
Left-wing policies generally cause kneejerk reactions by big businesses and increase government spending on social programs. Those things don't change the economy immediately, especially one that has been entrenched with right leaning policies for 20 years.

The capitalistic engine requires consumerism, and Hudak's policies certainly won't do that. Wynne's may, but who knows which promises they'll keep and which they'll break anymore.

I'm not necessarily against the exodus of executives, as there will always be up-and-comers who will still still make more as they rise the corporate ladder.

IWD is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:40 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2016 All Rights Reserved.