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The Sport of Ice Hockey

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05-16-2014, 08:17 PM
  #26
Killion
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^^^ Cute story.... but yes, youd think that if it was "much in vogue", a fad becoming a trend becoming a regular event & activity, games etc, somebody somewhere wouldve written about it in detail, even a snippet. Yet common sense would suggest that it simply must have been played in New England & the NE US. We even have that intriguing wisp of a reference from Virginia going back to 1802. Almost like the Lost Colony of Roanoke, mystery.

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05-16-2014, 08:21 PM
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I think it's basic human instinct that if you have a mass of frozen water, sticks, and something to beat with the sticks, people will gather and beat that thing around the ice with sticks. Ancient Americans crossing the land bridge probably passed the time by batting Sabretooth poop back and forth, keeping track of who let it past more often.

There's only so much to do on ice, after all; you can slide around, or you can slide other things around, or you can slide those things around while you slide around.

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05-16-2014, 09:32 PM
  #28
Robert Gordon Orr
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Again, mention that "hockey is very much the vogue in parts of New England & the United States" which if contemporaneous with the Victoria rink & date beneath that blurb puts it at 1862. So if the games "much the vogue" in the US, how come we cant find any newspaper clipping or stories from somewhere down in that area confirming as much? Very strange. Maybe just not mined properly by specifically a hockey historian looking. No idea. Mystery. Seems possible the game found its way north from south of the border.

There is a lot to uncover in New England for sure.
I looked into my files on what I have for New England before 1875

Newspapers

1858-01-29 - The Daily Dispatch (reproduced from The Worcester Bay State) – Hockey on skates

1859-12-31 – Cambridge Chronicle – Hockey on skates

1860-12-19 – Boston Daily Advertiser (and some other December editions i.e. Dec.21) – Hockey/Shinty and skates

1861-01-19 – Salem Observer (reproduced from Boston Evening Gazette) – Hurley on skates

1865-02-10 – The Vermont Phoenix – Shinny and skates

1871-01-12 – Boston Herald – Hockey on skates

1871-01-21 – National Aegis – Hockey on skates

1871-03-15 – Provincetown Advocate – Shinny on skates



Memories, Autobiographies and other books

1830s – William Thomas Davis - Hocky and skating

1840s – Nathaniel Paine – Hockey/Shinney on skates

1849 – Fictional story about William Saunders - Hockey on skates

1854 – James D’Wolf Lovett - Hockey on skates

1857 - 1865 - Ernest Wadsworth Longfellow – Hockey on skates

1859 – New England Farmer (Engraving)

1867 –Our Young Folks, An Illustrated Magazine for Boys and Girls – Hockey on skates

1873 - The Franklin third reader – Hockey on skates


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05-16-2014, 10:26 PM
  #29
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^^^ Seems pretty definitive. Multiple accounts. Any sign of Rules in any of those books, magazines or articles?

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05-17-2014, 07:03 AM
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^^^ Seems pretty definitive. Multiple accounts. Any sign of Rules in any of those books, magazines or articles?
Well, "Our Young Folks" describes the game and how to play it, both for ground and on skates. Although there are no rules per se.

Also, I have yet to find an organized game in the United States (not just New England) prior to 1875.
There were plenty of instances when the game was mentioned being played on the ice (with skates), but no documented, organized games.

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05-17-2014, 09:42 AM
  #31
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Starr Skates

Further to the skates question the following blurb about Starr Company from Nova Scotia is rather helpful. Also note that the company distributed Ice Hockey sticks - Mic Mac:

http://www.hockeyshome.ns.ca/starr.htm

From Michael McKinley, "Putting a Roof on Winter" it is stated that between 1877 and 1907 the Starr Company sold 11, 000, 000 skates world wide. Given the date the company entered the ice skate business and started distributing ice hockey specific sticks - look at the shape of the blade away from the shaft, it is possible to get a picture of the impetus that accelerated the interest in Ice Hockey as a pastime, eventually a sport. Standardized Equipment would be a large step forward in this regard.


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05-17-2014, 09:45 AM
  #32
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Rules vs Specifications

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Originally Posted by Robert Gordon Orr View Post
Well, "Our Young Folks" describes the game and how to play it, both for ground and on skates. Although there are no rules per se.

Also, I have yet to find an organized game in the United States (not just New England) prior to 1875.
There were plenty of instances when the game was mentioned being played on the ice (with skates), but no documented, organized games.
Think there has to be an appreciattion of the distinction between specifications(instructions) and rules(which tend to be more imperative in nature).

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05-17-2014, 12:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Further to the skates question the following blurb about Starr Company from Nova Scotia is rather helpful. Also note that the company distributed Ice Hockey sticks - Mic Mac:

http://www.hockeyshome.ns.ca/starr.htm

From Michael McKinley, "Putting a Roof on Winter" it is stated that between 1877 and 1907 the Starr Company sold 11, 000, 000 skates world wide. Given the date the company entered the ice skate business and started distributing ice hockey specific sticks - look at the shape of the blade away from the shaft, it is possible to get a picture of the impetus that accelerated the interest in Ice Hockey as a pastime, eventually a sport. Standardized Equipment would be a large step forward in this regard.

What would be interesting is to find the first contemporary source (i.e. advertisement) for specific ice hockey sticks.
The Daily Boston Advertiser had ads of Hockeys or Shinty sticks (not for field hockey) as early as December 1860, and I also think this was the case in New York.

It would be interesting to find out where these were "manufactured".
We always here about the "Mic Mac" sticks, but I have not seen any contemporary source of those being made before 1875.
I am sure they were, but are we aware of any contemporary source that can confirm this ?

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05-17-2014, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Think there has to be an appreciattion of the distinction between specifications(instructions) and rules(which tend to be more imperative in nature).
Totally agree with you. That distinction has to be made.

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05-18-2014, 12:43 PM
  #35
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Convergence

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Originally Posted by Robert Gordon Orr View Post
What would be interesting is to find the first contemporary source (i.e. advertisement) for specific ice hockey sticks.
The Daily Boston Advertiser had ads of Hockeys or Shinty sticks (not for field hockey) as early as December 1860, and I also think this was the case in New York.

It would be interesting to find out where these were "manufactured".
We always here about the "Mic Mac" sticks, but I have not seen any contemporary source of those being made before 1875.
I am sure they were, but are we aware of any contemporary source that can confirm this ?
There is an interesting convergence in Montreal around 1872 and 1873 in regard to ice hockey sticks and ice hockey skates. This convergence should be researched

James Creighton arrived in Montreal from Nova Scotia in 1872:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_C...on_(ice_hockey)

Henry Joseph does not recall seeing ice hockey sticks before 1873:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...5595%2C4611730

Starr Manufacturing, Halifax / Dartmouth Nova Scotia, is reported to have started selling skates in 1863 however it is unclear whether they were also selling ice hockey sticks at that time or when they started selling sticks:

http://www.hockeyshome.ns.ca/starr.htm

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05-18-2014, 01:58 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
There is an interesting convergence in Montreal around 1872 and 1873 in regard to ice hockey sticks and ice hockey skates. This convergence should be researched... Starr Manufacturing, Halifax / Dartmouth Nova Scotia, is reported to have started selling skates in 1863 however it is unclear whether they were also selling ice hockey sticks at that time or when they started selling sticks:
Ive seen a couple of different references to Starr selling sticks. The first being that they represented & had a deal with the Mi'kmaq's (the oldest known stick still in existence they made dating to between 1852/56) in offering sticks by mail order & at retail levels in the late 19th Century selling to Canadians & Americans.... then Ive come across references that suggest Starr bought out Mi'kmaq's who continued making the sticks but that Starr changeg the name to Mic Mac, those sticks available until the 1930's... Then theres a claim from Ontario in the range of the 1880's. That the area in & around Hespeler, Ayr & environs was the oldest, earliest & first in producing hockey sticks both manually by hand (carved) and then mechanically though with a considerable amount of hand finishing involved. Clearly that cant be right as the Mi'kmaq's were doing so at least as early as 1852 if not even earlier than that as some claim. Heres a link to the Hespeler story...

www.heritage-hockey.com/history/

You'd think as well that somewhere in Quebec, any number of small hand crafted stick makers wouldve sprung up, even saddle & harness makers, furniture manufacturers, anyone capable, sort of a cottage industry.... key though would be securing skates, so its on that basis that Id be inclined to give the tip to Starr's storyline as being the most accurate. Clearly hockey was played well before the first recorded games in Montreal with the "official rules" however... prior to that & contemporaneously, through the eras that have come & gone, a casual pursuit, fun, no real solid rules. Shinny.

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05-18-2014, 03:15 PM
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I am curious when the first Starr skates were made specifically for hockey, or when the first ads came where Starr skates were mentioned in conjunction with hockey. The same goes for the Mi'kmaq (Mic Mac) hockey sticks. When were they first advertised ?

I don't think I've seen any of the above before the 1890s. Maybe someone can dig up an ad before that.

Do we have any contemporary source that there were Mi'kmaq hockey sticks in the 1850s ?

Henry Joseph, the last surviving member from that "first" game on March 3, 1875 said that the first sticks that they used were obtained from Halifax by Creighton. The question is, were these sticks Halifax made, or had Halifax in turn imported them from England ?

In 1943 James Sutherland said that the first sticks used in Canadian games were imported from England and cost four shillings each.

Joseph as someone who participated in that "first" game hardly made that up, but as I said, I am curious if the sticks were Halifax made or if it was just a matter of Halifax having imported them from England.

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05-19-2014, 11:40 PM
  #38
Iain Fyffe
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Anyone seriously interested in this topic should join SIHR. An enormous amount of this research has been done already and is available on the SIHR site. Unless you're trying to reinvent the wheel, you should start there and see where the current state of the research stands.

In the past I've discussed the origins of the first ice hockey rules here. No inclination to try it again considering how it was received.

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05-20-2014, 03:20 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
Anyone seriously interested in this topic should join SIHR. An enormous amount of this research has been done already and is available on the SIHR site. Unless you're trying to reinvent the wheel, you should start there and see where the current state of the research stands.

In the past I've discussed the origins of the first ice hockey rules here. No inclination to try it again considering how it was received.

This is perfect, (not having to reinvent the wheel). I assume then that you can answer any of my questions above in the previous post.

- When (what year) were the first Starr skates made specifically for hockey ?
- When were the first ads published where Starr skates were mentioned in conjunction with hockey ?
- When were the first so called Mi'kmaq (Mic Mac) hockey sticks advertised ?

- Do we have any contemporary source of Mi'kmaq hockey sticks before 1875 ?

Were there specific Starr hockey skates and Mi’kmaq hockey sticks at the time of the 1875 game ?
It seems that you or SIHR might have that answer for us who are "trying to reinvent the wheel again".


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05-20-2014, 09:03 AM
  #40
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This is perfect, (not having to reinvent the wheel). I assume then that you can answer any of my questions above in the previous post.

- When (what year) were the first Starr skates made specifically for hockey ?
- When were the first ads published where Starr skates were mentioned in conjunction with hockey ?
- When were the first so called Mi'kmaq (Mic Mac) hockey sticks advertised ?

- Do we have any contemporary source of Mi'kmaq hockey sticks before 1875 ?

Were there specific Starr hockey skates and Mi’kmaq hockey sticks at the time of the 1875 game ?
It seems that you or SIHR might have that answer for us who are "trying to reinvent the wheel again".
For this specific information, you're probably better off contacting Martin Jones, who wrote Hockey's Home. It's a well-referenced book and as I recall it goes into some details about Starr skates. I don't agree with all of his conclusions but the book's approach is generally evidentiary.

His website is www.hockeyshome.ns.ca/

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05-20-2014, 10:52 AM
  #41
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Somewhat

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For this specific information, you're probably better off contacting Martin Jones, who wrote Hockey's Home. It's a well-referenced book and as I recall it goes into some details about Starr skates. I don't agree with all of his conclusions but the book's approach is generally evidentiary.

His website is www.hockeyshome.ns.ca/

The link was previously posted but the contents are some what lacking - example in the section about production of the Starr Skate mention is made of 11,000,000 skates. Does this mean pairs or units? When the basics lack clarity and specificity there is room for improvement.

Patent issues have been raised previously and were treated dismissively. Yet these same issues were the key to understanding the claims to "better".

http://www.birthplaceofhockey.com/origin/stock-vs-star/

Certainly better than the "mini toboggan" style skate of yore that were barely above the ice.

The Starr skates facilited alot of the skating movement necessary to playing ice hockey or other skating sports. the necessary edge use, the inevitable skill of sharpening, etc. This has to be researched, understood and explained as well. Also throw in the unique distribution network provided by a "nail manufacturing concern" that could put skates into hardware and general stores touching a populist retail market as opposed to a niche market.

Finally there is the issue of the Mic Mac ice hockey stick and the first ice hockey stick, the angled cut on the end of the blade and other attributes.

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05-20-2014, 11:05 AM
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Robert Gordon Orr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
For this specific information, you're probably better off contacting Martin Jones, who wrote Hockey's Home. It's a well-referenced book and as I recall it goes into some details about Starr skates. I don't agree with all of his conclusions but the book's approach is generally evidentiary.

His website is www.hockeyshome.ns.ca/
Thanks for the suggestion Ian. I have that book, and there are NO contemporary sources in that book answering any of my questions.
But you hinted that we (here at HFboards) are "reinventing the wheel" and that SIHR have those answers, so you are welcome to enlighten me and the other "wheel reinventers"

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05-20-2014, 11:29 AM
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Starr Skate Patents

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Thanks for the suggestion Ian. I have that book, and there are NO contemporary sources in that book answering any of my questions.
But you hinted that we (here at HFboards) are "reinventing the wheel" and that SIHR have those answers, so you are welcome to enlighten me and the other "wheel reinventers"
1863 and 1866 Starr Skate Patents:

http://www.birthplaceofhockey.com/ev...vequipchron-2/

Many sources have the answers, just a question of knowing where to look beyond a specific box.

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05-20-2014, 11:36 AM
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The link was previously posted but the contents are some what lacking
Which is why I suggested contacting Mr. Jones. Never said that site had all the answers. But it does have his contact information.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Patent issues have been raised previously and were treated dismissively.
The only time I recall this is when you presented a skate patent as evidence that skates resulted in the documented spike in hockey scoring in 1886. It was dismissed because it provided no evidence of a change in skates at that time, no evidence that such skates were being used in Montreal at the time, and no rationale as to why they would have led to higher scoring (moreso than the changes in sticks and the introduction of the rubber puck).

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05-20-2014, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Gordon Orr View Post
Thanks for the suggestion Ian. I have that book, and there are NO contemporary sources in that book answering any of my questions.
But you hinted that we (here at HFboards) are "reinventing the wheel" and that SIHR have those answers, so you are welcome to enlighten me and the other "wheel reinventers"
I'm not saying they have all the answers (or that SIHR necessarily has the answers to your specific questions), and to be blunt early sticks and skates are not my areas of expertise. But you're welcome to join the society and find out for yourself.

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05-20-2014, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
1863 and 1866 Starr Skate Patents:

http://www.birthplaceofhockey.com/ev...vequipchron-2/

Many sources have the answers, just a question of knowing where to look beyond a specific box.
Thanks Canadiens1958, I appreciate your effort, but that is not a contemporary source.

SIHR already looked into that, and this is what they said:

The Forbes Acme Skate
"In Puck (p.120, 121), Dr. Vaughan states that John Forbes (of the Starr Manufacturing Company) developed and patented in 1866 the “Starr Hockey Skate.” This suggests that hockey was sufficiently advanced by then that there was a market for a skate designed especially for the sport. Dr. Vaughan notes that the skate had a curved blade with rounded ends to allow for the quick turning of hockey. In looking at patent records for Nova Scotia, Canada and the United States, we have found only one under the name John Forbes for 1866. It is Nova Scotia patent application no. 171 for the “Forbes Acme Skate,” dated June 11, 1866. The document contains the petition, the claim, the specifications and a drawing. The device for which protection is sought constitutes “a simple and efficient and extremely convenient arrangement for securing the skates to the feet without the use of straps or screws.” The word “hockey” does not appear in the document, nor is there any description of a curved blade."

I still can't see a contemporary source. What a selfproclaimed hockey historian says 130+ years later is absolutely irrelevant to any serious hockey historian, unless that person can back it up with a contemporary source. That is the whole key, contemporary source.

That skates were used when various stick and ball games were played in the 19th century is nothing new, we have even seen engravings from 1796/97 which support that. What I am looking for is for anyone to provide me with contemporary evidence when Starr first manufactured skates specifically made for ice hockey, as well as the Mi'kmaq (Mic Mac) sticks. So far I have not seen anything before the 1890s.

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05-20-2014, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
I'm not saying they have all the answers (or that SIHR necessarily has the answers to your specific questions), and to be blunt early sticks and skates are not my areas of expertise. But you're welcome to join the society and find out for yourself.
Oh sorry, I thought SIHR (or you) had the answers, but apparently you are as clueless as all of us here at HFboards (the Wheel reinventers)

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05-20-2014, 12:02 PM
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Oh sorry, I thought SIHR (or you) had the answers, but apparently you are as clueless as all of us here at HFboards (the Wheel reinventers)
Someone in SIHR might very well have that information, which is why I suggested you check, and also check with Mr. Jones. I gave you a map, but I'm not hiring myself out as a guide just now.

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05-20-2014, 12:16 PM
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Someone in SIHR might very well have that information, which is why I suggested you check, and also check with Mr. Jones. I gave you a map, but I'm not hiring myself out as a guide just now.

Mr. Jones does not have the answers, otherwise he would have listed his contemporary sources, which he didn't. The SIHR will not provide me with the answers either.

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05-20-2014, 12:29 PM
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Mr. Jones does not have the answers, otherwise he would have listed his contemporary sources, which he didn't. The SIHR will not provide me with the answers either.
Who have you contacted in SIHR? I might be able to suggest some people you could try.

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