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Old
05-09-2014, 12:04 PM
  #126
hototogisu
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madam Kadri View Post
Thornton at least has a pretty stat sheet despite his choker reputation. Pacioretty is not even doing that.
If I knew where to find the breakdown of the stats I'm sure I could find numerous examples of star players who struggled to translate their regular season success to the post-season in their first dozen playoff games. It doesn't/didn't make them garbage, it made them players who look some time to figure it out. That's all.

I feel like the same people bashing Pacioretty now were probably the same ones calling him a bust when we sent him back to the AHL the second time, just to reinforce their beliefs that "only crashing the net works in the playoffs, there's no room for finesse players!" even though that's silly and patently untrue. Pacioretty will figure it out, like he figured out how to score in the regular season, and those people will look foolish, yet again.

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05-09-2014, 12:09 PM
  #127
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I don't think he's been as bad as many are saying but he's on a cold streak where nothing is going right for him. Sadly, the only way his line will contribute offensively is if he starts scoring and that probably makes it even easier to defend against him. Hard to imagine Habs winning without him producing, only so far the 3rd/4th lines can carry a team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
patches is a superior puck possession player to kane. We've been over this. In no world is trading patches for kane a way to look smart.
Keep Pacioretty, trade for Kane, re-sign Vanek, move Galchenyuk to center.

LW
Pacioretty
E.Kane/Vanek

RW
Vanek/E.Kane
Gallagher

C
Plekanec
Galchenyuk

*drool*


Last edited by Watsatheo: 05-09-2014 at 12:16 PM.
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05-09-2014, 12:15 PM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madam Kadri View Post
Thornton at least has a pretty stat sheet despite his choker reputation. Pacioretty is not even doing that.
Thornton at 25, has 0 points in 7 playoff games. He subsequently broke out the following season with the Sharks. Most great players struggle at some point. All Patches needs to do is score a couple goals, notch some assists and bam, his playoff production will skyrocket.

It's not a matter of if it will happen, just when.

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05-09-2014, 12:17 PM
  #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Watsatheo View Post
I don't think he's been as bad as many are saying but he's on a cold streak where nothing is going right for him. Sadly, the only way his line will contribute offensively is if he starts scoring and that probably makes it even easier to defend against him. Hard to imagine Habs winning without him producing, only so far the 3rd/4th lines can carry a team.



Keep Pacioretty, trade for Kane, re-sign Vanek, move Galchenyuk to center.

LW
Vanek/E.Kane
Pacioretty

RW
Vanek/E.Kane
Gallagher

C
Plekanec
Galchenyuk

*drool*
Pacioretty - Galchenyuk - Vanek
Kane - Plekanec - Gallagher

Can I cry? That is just so beautiful.

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05-09-2014, 12:23 PM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
If I knew where to find the breakdown of the stats I'm sure I could find numerous examples of star players who struggled to translate their regular season success to the post-season in their first dozen playoff games. It doesn't/didn't make them garbage, it made them players who look some time to figure it out. That's all.

I feel like the same people bashing Pacioretty now were probably the same ones calling him a bust when we sent him back to the AHL the second time, just to reinforce their beliefs that "only crashing the net works in the playoffs, there's no room for finesse players!" even though that's silly and patently untrue. Pacioretty will figure it out, like he figured out how to score in the regular season, and those people will look foolish, yet again.
That's because so-called finesse players that produce in the playoffs do go to the dirty areas. Even the Sedins don't shy away from the boards and they come out with the puck more than they lose it. Pacioretty can't hold a candle to those "soft" players. Pacioretty is fully on the board the Rick Nash train. Hell, when watching his goal highlights on NHL.com, seeing that none of them were any sort of garbage goals seems to confirm that he really doesn't have it in him anymore to do things that even reputably "soft" skill players do. A faster Moulson or a less skilled Nash is what he is.

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05-09-2014, 12:25 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madam Kadri View Post
That's because so-called finesse players that produce in the playoffs do go to the dirty areas. Even the Sedins don't shy away from the boards and they come out with the puck more than they lose it. Pacioretty can't hold a candle to those "soft" players. Pacioretty is fully on the board the Rick Nash train. Hell, when watching his goal highlights on NHL.com, seeing that none of them were any sort of garbage goals seems to confirm that he really doesn't have it in him anymore to do things that even reputably "soft" skill players do. A faster Moulson or a less skilled Nash is what he is.
All of this would have merit if it were contrary to what Pacioretty does in the regular season.

It's not. Pacioretty plays exactly like this for stretches in the regular season too. Until he remembers that moving his feet and attacking the net is how he has success, and then he'll start doing that and start scoring. But by all means, I won't stop you from writing him off. 12 games is enough to close the book on anybody.

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05-09-2014, 12:29 PM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
All of this would have merit if it were contrary to what Pacioretty does in the regular season.

It's not. Pacioretty plays exactly like this for stretches in the regular season too. Until he remembers that moving his feet and attacking the net is how he has success, and then he'll start doing that and start scoring. But by all means, I won't stop you from writing him off. 12 games is enough to close the book on anybody.
He's not going to remember. He's a breakaway guy, not even a board battle or hang around the net guy. Softer than much-maligned "soft" players like the Sedins or Vanek. Pacioretty certainly can't hold a candle to Cammalleri either.

Veterans don't drastically change their game. This is going to be what Pacioretty is for the future.

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05-09-2014, 12:30 PM
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bourne Endeavor View Post
Thornton at 25, has 0 points in 7 playoff games. He subsequently broke out the following season with the Sharks. Most great players struggle at some point. All Patches needs to do is score a couple goals, notch some assists and bam, his playoff production will skyrocket.

It's not a matter of if it will happen, just when.
Luck is "generated" through work in these clutch and grab playoffs, and Pacioretty isn't interested in such dirty work.

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05-09-2014, 12:31 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hototogisu View Post
Pacioretty plays exactly like this for stretches in the regular season too. Until he remembers that moving his feet and attacking the net...
Against Boston? Yeah right. They/Chara broke his back, remember? And say what you want about professional sports, etc., that s**t gets in your head. Pacioretty is avoiding the dirty areas. I don't blame him.

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05-09-2014, 12:33 PM
  #135
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Again Guy Lafleur story is faux-Guy played 3rd and 4th line role and played center most of 1st 3 seasons-Bowman nearly wrecked his career

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05-09-2014, 12:38 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by izzy75 View Post
Against Boston? Yeah right. They/Chara broke his back, remember? And say what you want about professional sports, etc., that s**t gets in your head. Pacioretty is avoiding the dirty areas. I don't blame him.
So maxpac hasn't played well against boston since the neck breaking thing?

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05-09-2014, 12:39 PM
  #137
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
patches is a superior puck possession player to kane. We've been over this. In no world is trading patches for kane a way to look smart.
What?!

Kane is superior to Patches in every aspect of the game except for the shot. Patches has a world class shot - when he hits the net. And I can't believe you think Patches has a puck possession game. When did he demonstrate this? He's constantly losing the puck along the boards and can make a pass only if he's not skating.

Kane is 22 & has roughly the same numbers that Patches has but Kane has done it three years earlier and on a team that one could claim has been worse than the Habs.

Patches may come off as someone who has his head screwed on right but it's obvious that the pressure of performing in important games gets to him. Kane on the other hand strikes me more like PK when it comes to important games. True he hasn't been in any playoffs but I can remember him in the junior championships, he brought his A game and was dominant. Patches hasn't been dominant at any level. He wilts under pressure.

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05-09-2014, 12:39 PM
  #138
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I semi agree with Madam Kadri.. Pacioretty is playing this like it's the regular season and that will always lead to disaster for a "perimeter" sniper.

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05-09-2014, 12:39 PM
  #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by izzy75 View Post
Against Boston? Yeah right. They/Chara broke his back, remember? And say what you want about professional sports, etc., that s**t gets in your head. Pacioretty is avoiding the dirty areas. I don't blame him.
I don't blame him either.

He is so very fortunate he wasn't paralyzed by the Chara stanchion. Many were sure he was in those first 5 min.

What he recovered from is very different from sitting in front of a TV/screen and criticizing.

To me he is heroic.

Max has one of the best wrist shots in the NHL... give him time (which is obviously running out) and he will deliver.

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05-09-2014, 12:40 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
What?!

Kane is superior to Patches in every aspect of the game except for the shot. Patches has a world class shot - when he hits the net. And I can't believe you think Patches has a puck possession game. When did he demonstrate this? He's constantly losing the puck along the boards and can make a pass only if he's not skating.

Kane is 22 & has roughly the same numbers that Patches has but Kane has done it three years earlier and on a team that one could claim has been worse than the Habs.

Patches may come off as someone who has his head screwed on right but it's obvious that the pressure of performing in important games gets to him. Kane on the other hand strikes me more like PK when it comes to important game. True he hasn't been in any important games but I can remember him in junior championships, he brought his A game and was dominant. Patches hasn't been dominant at any level.
http://www.habseyesontheprize.com/20...y-evander-kane

you're welcome.


Last edited by overlords: 05-09-2014 at 12:46 PM. Reason: overlords fail
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05-09-2014, 12:47 PM
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
What?!

Kane is superior to Patches in every aspect of the game except for the shot. Patches has a world class shot - when he hits the net. And I can't believe you think Patches has a puck possession game. When did he demonstrate this? He's constantly losing the puck along the boards and can make a pass only if he's not skating.

Kane is 22 & has roughly the same numbers that Patches has but Kane has done it three years earlier and on a team that one could claim has been worse than the Habs.

Patches may come off as someone who has his head screwed on right but it's obvious that the pressure of performing in important games gets to him. Kane on the other hand strikes me more like PK when it comes to important games. True he hasn't been in any playoffs but I can remember him in the junior championships, he brought his A game and was dominant. Patches hasn't been dominant at any level. He wilts under pressure.
I agree 100%

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05-09-2014, 12:53 PM
  #142
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Who is Andrew Berkshire? And I don't mean that as a putdown.

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05-09-2014, 12:55 PM
  #143
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Who is Andrew Berkshire? And I don't mean that as a putdown.
Just a blogger.

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05-09-2014, 12:56 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Just a blogger.
Well, at least you're honest.

Let me ask you, why do NHL teams bother sending scouts out to watch young players? Why don't they just hire a computer geek who can analysis spreadsheets?

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05-09-2014, 01:01 PM
  #145
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Originally Posted by onice View Post
Well, at least you're honest.
I tend to judge people on their arguments and not their title. Jean Perron has won a stanley cup as a coach and I wouldn't wipe my ass with his opinions, you know?

My favorite guy on that site is olivier bouchard, but unfortunately he got picked up by nhl.com and a few local franco papers so he doesn't write much there anymore.

Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
Well, at least you're honest.

Let me ask you, why do NHL teams bother sending scouts out to watch young players? Why don't they just hire a computer geek who can analysis spreadsheets?
The smart thing is to use both. Every team should be using every edge they can possibly find to win games.

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05-09-2014, 01:04 PM
  #146
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Corsi will have its Lucas critique equivalent in due time.

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05-09-2014, 01:17 PM
  #147
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The smart thing is to use both. Every team should be using every edge they can possibly find to win games.
Can you imagine if some NHL teams hired guys like Whitesnake and a few of us others who watch prospects practically every day as part of their scouting team. Pay a decent amount to watch hockey all day, every day and give scouting reports. Of course, lack of credentials put a kibosh on that all but it's fun to dream, right?

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05-09-2014, 01:19 PM
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Madam Kadri View Post
Luck is "generated" through work in these clutch and grab playoffs, and Pacioretty isn't interested in such dirty work.
Neither are many of the playoffs you cited. Cammalleri's bread and butter is a lightning fast wrist shot, while the Sedins fest off a cycle game. Sure, they can battle along the boards, but that is not how they produce their respective offense. Patches is simply not a grind heavy player and more of an opportunist. This is why he goes in frequent cold and hot spurts. He'll be fine.

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05-09-2014, 01:25 PM
  #149
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Too much is said about Max being "not a playoff performer".

It takes some people longer than others.

Max will be fine long term, I have zero concern there. I think he'll have a great game 6.

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05-09-2014, 01:26 PM
  #150
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Neither are many of the playoffs you cited. Cammalleri's bread and butter is a lightning fast wrist shot, while the Sedins fest off a cycle game. Sure, they can battle along the boards, but that is not how they produce their respective offense. Patches is simply not a grind heavy player and more of an opportunist. This is why he goes in frequent cold and hot spurts. He'll be fine.
Cycle game involves boardwork and the Sedins usually win theirs when the engage in it. Boardwork is not just for so-called power-forwards. In fact, I believe power forwards are simply the extreme end of a continuum and borderline mythical creature, and many players do the tasks a power forward does, just without the reputation.

They might be soft, but they weren't afraid of going to the prime areas or using their skillset. Pacioretty is both scared and not using any of the tools in his arsenal, not just physical play. His doesn't use his speed except on the backcheck, his shots are wide, and/or, he is not positioning himself into prime scoring areas.

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