HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Montreal Canadiens
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

What's wrong with Max?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-09-2014, 01:26 PM
  #151
Habs Icing
Formerly Onice
 
Habs Icing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 8,485
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post



The smart thing is to use both.
Which is why Andrew Berkshire's article is pointless. His stats are interesting and helpful but when you make a judgement solely on those numbers you get into trouble. Berkshire's stats & numbers don't explain and didn't predict Patches disappearance in important games.


Also, Mr Berkshire pulled a fast one. He started the stats in the 11-12 season thus throwing out Patches first years where he was learning and used Patches "veteran" years against Kane's first years. Talk about twisting stats to make them say what you want.


Last edited by Habs Icing; 05-09-2014 at 01:37 PM..
Habs Icing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2014, 01:42 PM
  #152
Mats NAslund
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Ottawa
Posts: 4,178
vCash: 50
Personally I think Briere needs more ice time with quality line mates

Pacioretty Briere Vanek
Gallagher Plekanec Bournival
Bourque Eller Gionta
Prust Moen Weise

Give DD a day in the press box....He's getting killed out there!

D- pairings stay the same

Just no more Weaver and Murray to start a OT

Therien you knob!

Mats NAslund is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2014, 01:51 PM
  #153
overlords
youmyboyblou!
 
overlords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Planet Squanch
Posts: 26,844
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
Which is why Andrew Berkshire's article is pointless. His stats are interesting and helpful but when you make a judgement solely on those numbers you get into trouble. Berkshire's stats & numbers don't explain and didn't predict Patches disappearance in important games.


Also, Mr Berkshire pulled a fast one. He started the stats in the 11-12 season thus throwing out Patches first years where he was learning and used Patches "veteran" years against Kane's first years. Talk about twisting stats to make them say what you want.
Most likely because that was the first year maxpac played a full season. His numbers the year before were quite sparkly until he got his neck broken, so it wouldn't change anything to go back an extra year. And it's not like kane lit the world on fire that year. Max was definitely outplaying him there as well. You can compare their 22 year old seasons, if you want. They both played more or less the entire year.

I don't think the stats need to stand as some definitive, groundbreaking proof that Max is way better, but at the very least you should admit that it shows there is no evidence to suggest trading him for Kane. None. It's just another example of the grass is always greener complex.

And nobody only uses stats to come to conclusions, don't be silly.

overlords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2014, 02:11 PM
  #154
Habs Icing
Formerly Onice
 
Habs Icing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 8,485
vCash: 500
So you went from this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
In no world is trading patches for kane a way to look smart.
to this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post

I don't think the stats need to stand as some definitive, groundbreaking proof that Max is way better, but at the very least you should admit that it shows there is no evidence to suggest trading him for Kane. None.
You went from implying that trading for Kane is not the smartest move to it's just changing 4 quarters for a buck.

Except Patches has had three occasions to prove he can stand the heat (last year's playoffs, this year's playoffs & the Olympics) and was and still is MIA. Kane has had only one opportunity: junior championships as an 18 year old and as I mentioned he dominated. Small sample size I know but he still performed when asked.

Also, it's only next year that Kane will enter the curve that Berkshire used from Patches' career to compare the two players. I hope you realize that isn't a fair or meaningful comparison. You do know there's a three year difference in their ages, right?


Last edited by Habs Icing; 05-09-2014 at 02:18 PM..
Habs Icing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2014, 02:16 PM
  #155
habscup*
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 2,052
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
So you went from this:



to this:



You went from implying that trading for Kane is not the smartest move to it's just changing 4 quarters for a buck.

Except Patches has had three occasions to prove he can stand the heat (last year's playoffs, this year's playoffs & the Olympics) and was and still is MIA. Kane has had only one opportunity: junior championships as an 18 year old and as I mentioned he dominated. Small sample size I know but he still performed when asked.

Also, it's only next year that Kane will enter the curve that Berkshire used from Patches' career to compare the two players. I hope you realize that isn't a fair or meaningful comparison.
forgott bout datsyuk eh?

habscup* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2014, 02:18 PM
  #156
overlords
youmyboyblou!
 
overlords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Planet Squanch
Posts: 26,844
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
So you went from this:



to this:



You went from implying that trading for Kane is not the smartest move to it's just changing 4 quarters for a buck.

Except Patches has had three occasions to prove he can stand the heat (last year's playoffs, this year's playoffs & the Olympics) and was and still is MIA. Kane has had only one opportunity: junior championships as an 18 year old and as I mentioned he dominated. Small sample size I know but he still performed when asked.

Also, only ext year will Kane enter the curve that Berkshire used from Patches' career to compare the two players. I hope you realize it's wasn't a fair or meaningful comparison.
I didn't say it was like changing 4 quarters for a buck. I said that even if you didn't want to believe that all the evidence in that article proves without a shadow of a doubt that max was the superior player, that at the very least you couldn't go on saying there was evidence to the contrary. Right now,, it's pretty clear to me that max is the better player. In the future, who knows? But you'd have to go on a leap of faith to make that trade, because right now it makes no sense from the habs point of view.

And this year's season for kane doesn't match up with 11-12 with kane? They are/were both 22, no?

overlords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2014, 02:22 PM
  #157
Habs Icing
Formerly Onice
 
Habs Icing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 8,485
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Right now,, it's pretty clear to me that max is the better player. In the future, who knows?
You see, that's where we differ. I think Kane brings dimensions that Patches isn't even aware exist.

Habs Icing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2014, 03:02 PM
  #158
overlords
youmyboyblou!
 
overlords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Planet Squanch
Posts: 26,844
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
You see, that's where we differ. I think Kane brings dimensions that Patches isn't even aware exist.
That's nice and all, but until those extra dimensions start translating into goals and making his teammates better, which right now isn't the case, Max pac is the more useful player.

overlords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2014, 03:26 PM
  #159
rockjngo
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 2,457
vCash: 500
Max Pacioretty is NOT a playoff guy. He's a regular season guy.

In 12 playoff games he has 1 goal. Players like this doesn't bring it in the playoffs. Lack of mental toughness and floats.

The same can be said with David Desharnais 1 goal in 18 playoff games.



Max Pacioretty and David Desharnais for Evander Kane and Bryan Little?

rockjngo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2014, 03:30 PM
  #160
red devil
Registered User
 
red devil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 761
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habscup View Post
forgott bout datsyuk eh?
Agreed, in Datsyuk's first 35 games of his play off career he had 12 points with only 3 goals. Some players take some more time to adapt to playing in the playoffs, so hopefully Max is able to turn it around with more experience

Also, in Zetterberg's first 16 games he had 3 goals and 5 points, I'm pretty sure the Wings are glad they didn't give up on these guys. Now do I want Max to start producing, absolutely and hopefully he can turn it around right away.


Last edited by red devil; 05-09-2014 at 03:38 PM.. Reason: Added: Second Paragraph
red devil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2014, 03:41 PM
  #161
Rapala
Chasin'TheCup
 
Rapala's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,735
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by red devil View Post
Agreed, in Datsyuk's first 35 games of his play off career he had 12 points with only 3 goals. Some players take some more time to adapt to playing in the playoffs, so hopefully Max is able to turn it around with more experience
Why does everything always have to come down to points?
If you want to use Datsyuk as an example you'd better be very clear that he is/was regarded as
the very best defensive player in the league. He was bringing a lot more to his team than what Max is giving us. The first thing Max needs to do is get some PK level compete into his game.
Once that is achieved everything else will take care of itself.

Rapala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2014, 03:46 PM
  #162
Watsatheo
Error 503 Service
 
Watsatheo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 34,773
vCash: 883
Quote:
Originally Posted by rockjngo View Post
Max Pacioretty is NOT a playoff guy. He's a regular season guy.

In 12 playoff games he has 1 goal. Players like this doesn't bring it in the playoffs. Lack of mental toughness and floats.

The same can be said with David Desharnais 1 goal in 18 playoff games.



Max Pacioretty and David Desharnais for Evander Kane and Bryan Little?
Kane and Little have 0 playoff points. Can't even raise their game for regular season.

Watsatheo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2014, 03:50 PM
  #163
red devil
Registered User
 
red devil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 761
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapala View Post
Why does everything always have to come down to points?
If you want to use Datsyuk as an example you'd better be very clear that he is/was regarded as
the very best defensive player in the league. He was bringing a lot more to his team than what Max is giving us. The first thing Max needs to do is get some PK level compete into his game.
Once that is achieved everything else will take care of itself.
Datsyuk in his early playoff career was criticized for not stepping up his game in the playoffs and he wasn't the same type of player he was in his first few seasons, as he grew into later in his career.

red devil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2014, 04:20 PM
  #164
Rapala
Chasin'TheCup
 
Rapala's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,735
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by red devil View Post
Datsyuk in his early playoff career was criticized for not stepping up his game in the playoffs and he wasn't the same type of player he was in his first few seasons, as he grew into later in his career.

Huge dip his sophmore year but that was the entire team.
Not to mention Datsyuk did a lot more than register points for the Wings like I said.
So not only is Max not scoring he isn't bringing anything else to the dance either.

Rookie year 3/3 6pts +1 Stanley Cup Champion
no points the following year in 4 games
followed up in sccession with:
6 pts in 12 games
3 points in 5 games
16 points in 18 games
23 points in 22 games Stanley Cup Champion.

Rapala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2014, 04:27 PM
  #165
red devil
Registered User
 
red devil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Country: Canada
Posts: 761
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rapala View Post
Huge dip his sophmore year but that was the entire team.
Not to mention Datsyuk did a lot more than register points for the Wings like I said.
So not only is Max not scoring he isn't bringing anything else to the dance either.

Rookie year 3/3 6pts +1 Stanley Cup Champion
no points the following year in 4 games
followed up in sccession with:
6 pts in 12 games
3 points in 5 games
16 points in 18 games
23 points in 22 games Stanley Cup Champion.
Pacioretty needs to step his game up soon, but I'm not ready to give up on our best goal scorer we've had in a long time. We need to get him get going and I thought the goal against Tampa was going to do that, but unfortunately it hasn't yet. This is only his 2nd playoffs in his career so I'm still being patient with the guy, but that won't last forever, but maybe he will get lucky break and bounce one of someone and go in.

red devil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2014, 04:48 PM
  #166
Rapala
Chasin'TheCup
 
Rapala's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,735
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by red devil View Post
Pacioretty needs to step his game up soon, but I'm not ready to give up on our best goal scorer we've had in a long time. We need to get him get going and I thought the goal against Tampa was going to do that, but unfortunately it hasn't yet. This is only his 2nd playoffs in his career so I'm still being patient with the guy, but that won't last forever, but maybe he will get lucky break and bounce one of someone and go in.
We need to break his mindset.
Way too much pressure on him to score.
Play him with Plecks let him focus on the D side of his game.
He'll get his chances with Plecky and it only takes one.
I kinda think that helped with Borky putting him with Eller and Gio.

Rapala is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2014, 05:28 PM
  #167
Lafleurs Guy
Global Moderator
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 43,018
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by red devil View Post
Datsyuk in his early playoff career was criticized for not stepping up his game in the playoffs and he wasn't the same type of player he was in his first few seasons, as he grew into later in his career.
Datsyuk's another good example. He was ripped for not being a "playoff guy" too.

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2014, 05:29 PM
  #168
la25ecoupe
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,150
vCash: 500
I think it's time to say byebye DD

la25ecoupe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2014, 05:37 PM
  #169
Habs Icing
Formerly Onice
 
Habs Icing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 8,485
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
That's nice and all, but until those extra dimensions start translating into goals and making his teammates better, which right now isn't the case, Max pac is the more useful player.
Yeah because Patches wonderful skills have translated into way more goals and he definitely has made other players better. These playoffs really proved your point. And when you say useful do you mean as a punching bag for opposing teams?

Habs Icing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2014, 05:42 PM
  #170
Habs Icing
Formerly Onice
 
Habs Icing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 8,485
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by habscup View Post
forgott bout datsyuk eh?
Yeah cause Patches brings all those other elements that Datsyuk brought.

Habs Icing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2014, 05:43 PM
  #171
overlords
youmyboyblou!
 
overlords's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Planet Squanch
Posts: 26,844
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
Yeah because Patches wonderful skills have translated into way more goals and he definitely has made other players better. These playoffs really proved your point. And when you say useful do you mean as a punching bag for opposing teams?
Yeah, Kane's playoff numbers are so much better, OH WAIT.


Apples with apples, please.


And it's not like his linemates have been anything better. Vanek has been worse, DD has been arguably just as bad if not worse.

overlords is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2014, 05:44 PM
  #172
Habs Icing
Formerly Onice
 
Habs Icing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 8,485
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
Datsyuk's another good example. He was ripped for not being a "playoff guy" too.
Really? Cause as long as Datsyuk has been in the league he was considered as one of the top 5 players. Where do you guys come up with this crap?

Habs Icing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2014, 05:44 PM
  #173
Lafleurs Guy
Global Moderator
 
Lafleurs Guy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 43,018
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
Yeah cause Patches brings all those other elements that Datsyuk brought.
He was ripped mercilessly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by onice View Post
Really? Cause as long as Datsyuk has been in the league he was considered as one of the top 5 players. Where do you guys come up with this crap?
You have a short memory.

Lafleurs Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2014, 05:45 PM
  #174
Habs Icing
Formerly Onice
 
Habs Icing's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Montreal
Posts: 8,485
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
He was ripped mercilessly.
I don't remember him being ripped apart. I remember everyone claiming he was one of the top 5 players in the league.

Habs Icing is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
05-09-2014, 05:48 PM
  #175
LyricalLyricist
Retired
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Montreal
Country: Canada
Posts: 30,000
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by la25ecoupe View Post
I think it's time to say byebye DD
If the idea is to upgrade on DD then by all means.

If the idea is scapegoating DD for Max that's a bad move.

LyricalLyricist is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:17 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. @2017 All Rights Reserved.