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Historic Hatred For Crosby (Mod Warning - Post #2)

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05-14-2014, 07:39 AM
  #51
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Originally Posted by Boxscore View Post
I think this is absolutely correct and a large part of the negative perceptions about Crosby. However, here is my full take.....
First, I want to say this is a great post in general.

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Originally Posted by Boxscore View Post
1. As you said, Social Media and coverage saturation online with YouTube and on TV with the NHL Network, fans outside of Pittsburgh are sick of everything NHL being reduced to Crosby, Crosby, Crosby. If Crosby makes a great play, the hockey media beats it to death, almost ignoring the fact that thousands of plays have been made that are equal or better.
So true. Do some hate Crosby for being a great hockey player? Maybe. Do some hate being continually force fed how great he supposedly is? Definitely.

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Originally Posted by Boxscore View Post
2. Preferential treatment. I know there is a balance here between Sid fans crying foul and non-Sid fans saying he ALWAYS gets the benefit of the doubt, but in all honesty, Crosby and the Penguins have gotten the better end of the stick more often than not. Granted, Crosby is not the ONLY superstar to receive some special treatment but (as stated above) everything is seen, passed along on Twitter and evaluated these days.
He seemed to get some preferential treatment early in his career. I wonder if all his diving, crying, and antics have negated that, and since he is treated more like any other player now, some equate that to him getting the short end of the stick.

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Originally Posted by Boxscore View Post
3. Crosby is a great player but not nearly AS GREAT as the media and NHL marketing machine make him out to be. Anyone who has watched this game for decades can tell with their own eyes how great Sid is (and isn't) but according to those in charge of "selling" the game, you would think Crosby is better than Gretzky and Lemieux combined. This is NOT Sid's fault but it gets irritating after years of it. I'll go on record as saying, I honestly think he is the best out of a group of hockey players who overall are not AS GREAT as players in the mid-80s to 2000. The Greztkys, Lemieuxs, Yzermans, Bourques, Coffeys, Messiers, Sakics, Forsbergs, Chelioses, Lidstroms etc. are better than the best players today. When you look at players like Selanne and Jagr still being GREAT at 40-42 against players like Crosby and Malkin in their prime, it's scary to imagine what these guys would do today in their primes the way penalties are being called and players have greatly reduced the amount of clutching, grabbing and brutality.
Spot on. He may be the best of his generation, but even that is still debatable at this point. I think Ovechkin may have had the better peak, and I might pick someone like Malkin or Kane over him in a big game/series, all other things being equal. The main edge he has is his consistency, when healthy, and at one point his playoff record... however, his edge in the latter seems to be quickly evaporating.

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Originally Posted by Boxscore View Post
4. Was the Crosby draft fixed? Again, this is all speculation and hearsay, but it HAS been bantered about by many fans. The Crosby "lottery" was done so cloak and dagger it reeked of the NHL doing the Pens and Mario a solid by ensuring Sid ended up a Penguin. Although it will never be (or unlikely to be) proven, there are fans of the game who feel Bettman and the NHL manipulate circumstances to help teams and ownerships in need. Do I personally think the Crosby draft was rigged? If I had to bet my life on it, I'd say NO... but the thought has crossed my mind more than a few times. I put nothing past Bettman & co. when finances and franchises hang in the balance.
I don't want to speculate on the unknowable. However, an instance where alarm bells really went off was when the Pens won the Cup. I couldn't believe that they moved up the schedule about a week. As far as I could remember, once the conference finals' schedules were set, the SCF schedule was always set in stone. It seemed suspicious, given the injuries Detroit had coming out of the WCF. Then, down 2-0, the refs told the Pens they had too many men on the ice, and allowed one to skate off... I think that would have negated a PP on which they later scored, keeping them in the game and the series.

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But, here's where I think Crosby shares some blame...

5. Outside of the Olympic OT goal, Crosby is a living legend created by the NHL marketing machine for the most part. Again, he is the best player in the game today, but his legend far exceeds his accomplishments. Right now Sid is 15th in playoff scoring and he's played MORE games than 9 of the players AHEAD of him. When was a healthy, PRIME Gretzky or Lemieux 15th in playoff scoring when playing as many playoff games as their peers?! The year the Penguins won the Cup, Crosby left game 7 before anything happened and, thanks to Talbot, the Pens edged the Wings in that game. Yet people talk about Sid like "he won the Pens the Cup" (almost like Lemieux did). What if Talbot wasn't clutch and the Pens LOST to the Wings and Sid had no Cup? What then? He'd probably be criticized as an underachiever the way Ovechkin is today. The way I see it, if Crosby is AS GREAT as people want you to believe... step up, grab the league by the throat, and dominate it for a 5 year span during the season and in the playoffs the way the Gretzkys and Lemieuxs did. I'm not talking about just winning Harts and Art Rosses (against inferior talent that what 99 and 66 competed against) but dominating when it matters most. The year Crosby got all the "praise" for winning Gold for Canada in the Olympics, he was average all tournament UNTIL that one goal. Meanwhile, in 1987 Mario Lemieux and Wayne Gretzky DOMINATED the Red Army team (far better than any team Crosby ever played against) and they scored the BIG goals too. This year in the Olympics, Sid was just "good" again. That doesn't cut it for many fans... if Sid is labelled this incredible, generational talent. Just being honest.
I agree for the most part. Part of the blame again goes to the marketing machine force feeding us Crosby at every opportunity. I don't completely blame Crosby for being merely "good" rather than great during the Olympics, or being shut down in that SCF, although it's definitely important to consider. However, it does get sickening when he's constantly touted as having "captained the Pens to a Cup", when the real heroics came from the likes of Malkin and Talbot (with an assist from the league and refs). Without that series win, which Crosby contributed little to, what would be the signature series win for the post-lockout Pens? I'm not sure, but probably a 7 game win vs. a Caps team that has never made it past the second round? That wouldn't be much to hang their hat on, given how good the Pens have been during the regular seasons.

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Originally Posted by Boxscore View Post
6. Crosby's attitude and bratty approach at times. Other stars like Shore, Lindsay, Lindros and Chelios were loathed because they were nasty. But Sid is hated because he is whiny, embellishes without question, and is dirty (not tough). Him and Malkin are the kings of "acting tough" after the whistle once the linesmen are in to protect them. Crosby also lacks respect for his peers... evident the way he was disrespecting a legend like Forsberg as a rookie when Forsberg told him to stop diving. There are a collection of videos on YouTube that focus on Sid's diving, embellishing, cheap play and whining to players and officials alike. Yes, he's a great player, but there are things about his approach that are very unlikable to some fans who've watched this game for a long time.
This is one area where Crosby most deserves the blame, besides his disappearance in the playoffs of late... and the two often seem to be related. When it's put up or shut up time, against the real contenders and/or tougher teams, Crosby usually does neither. Instead, he cries and tries to be a pest, then runs and hides behind the refs when things really start brewing.

I didn't know Forsberg called him out for diving, but like TDMM said, that's really something. The thing is, he wasn't alone among superstars of the true Dead Puck Era to call him out for that. Jagr called him out during their playoff series in '08, and Selanne did so at this past Olympics. In the latter two cases, those superstars seemed to outperform Crosby, even at their advanced ages, and even while playing on inferior teams to Crosby's.

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Originally Posted by Boxscore View Post
To bottom line it, I think the Pens (and Sid) fans have every right to cheer him on and only look at the great things. That's what being a fan is. But unbiased fans see Crosby is a slightly different light. And it's not just because of the team he plays for. Lemieux and Jagr as examples of other Penguins who were polarizing at times but they were SO GREAT that, at the end of the day, season or game, fans gave them their just due. Crosby hasn't earned that free pass with the masses yet because he hasn't lived up to the "billing" yet.

Personally, I like Crosby a bit. I'm not his biggest fan, but I consider him a great player and probably a great role model for kids today. But I can see why there are a group of fans that just don't think he's all that. I certainly don't think he's as great as advertised.
Again, I agree. I don't want to dissuade fans of Crosby from being fans of his, that's their choice and right. However, I think he's portrayed in an unrealistic light by some. One Olympic goal does not forever make him "clutch." Being above average at faceoffs and digging some pucks out of the corner does not suddenly make him a great two-way player, nor Selke candidate. Sitting on the bench, even with a legitimate injury, during game 7 of the SCF isn't really a testament to his "leadership" nor to his "captaining the Pens to a Cup."

All in all, it's probably a bit unfair to him. AFAIK, he didn't ask to be the centerpiece for the NHL's marketing. Maybe if he wasn't constantly hyped from the very beginning of his NHL career, many of us would more appreciate what he is and what he's done, instead of what he isn't and what he hasn't done.

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05-14-2014, 09:25 AM
  #52
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God help Connor Mcdavid if he fails to quickly establish himself as the second coming once he joins the NHL in two years.

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05-14-2014, 09:38 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Only 3 recent players really come to mind. Yzerman, Sakic and Lidstrom.

When it comes to Crosby's actions, just ask yourself this...could you or have you seen any of the 3 aforementioned player doing the same thing?
The answer, 99% of the time is no.


Imagine if Crosby had've done that today (or when he initiated similar fights with Gregory Campbell and Matt Niskanen). Nothing's really changed, just the speed in which information gets around and haters can respond with.

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05-14-2014, 09:41 AM
  #54
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Did you see Cherry's clips? I have never seen a star player in the league take that much. Aside from the odd body check, Gretzky never took 99% of the abuse Crosby is getting. And that was because of Semenko. Same with Bossy who had Gillies, Lafleur and Robinson.
Yes I saw the clips and I have to disagree with you.

They all had to put up with being beat on. Bossy is a particularly poor example for your case considering his back got mangled by being cross checked constantly in front of the net.

The difference to me, as I said in my previous post and you allude to in your latest one, is that before when you took liberties with a star you were going to get paid back.

No one seems to be doing that for Crosby.

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05-14-2014, 10:19 AM
  #55
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Richard, Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr,
He's not as good as these guys and since 09 his maturity has regressed to the point where Mario had to tell him after game 6 not to argue with the refs. Roenick said he would start a franchise with Toews. Post 09 I don't think you can win a Cup with The Kid unless he's wearing the A and you have a strong leader as Captain who can keep him in line and focused on playing hockey and winning playoff games.

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05-14-2014, 11:22 AM
  #56
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I think it started because of NHL overexposing him and progressed because of his repeated failures in the last few playoffs. He is not a lonely force on an underachieving team, he is underachieving with the team.

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05-14-2014, 03:55 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by PensFan101 View Post


Imagine if Crosby had've done that today (or when he initiated similar fights with Gregory Campbell and Matt Niskanen). Nothing's really changed, just the speed in which information gets around and haters can respond with.
Lesbihonest, here.

When was the last time Crosby actually fought someone who was antagonizing him in that way?

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05-14-2014, 05:55 PM
  #58
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Yes I saw the clips and I have to disagree with you.

They all had to put up with being beat on. Bossy is a particularly poor example for your case considering his back got mangled by being cross checked constantly in front of the net.

The difference to me, as I said in my previous post and you allude to in your latest one, is that before when you took liberties with a star you were going to get paid back.

No one seems to be doing that for Crosby.
True. Bossy's career ended prematurely at age 30 due to back problems, which he attributed to getting cross-checked repeatedly. This despite the fact that Gillies, one of the best fighters the game has ever seen, rode shutgun on his lines for years. For example, NYR Ed Hospodar cheapshotted Bossy one game at MSG. Gillies proceeded to break his jaw (I'm not exaggerating):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q0_3oosIHZY

Hard to overlook the fact that, with the one exception of Kunitz in Game Six, no one on the Pens made opponents answer for taking liberties with their Captain. And that is wrong...in 1984 or 2014. I imagine that under a coach like Hitchcock or Sutter, for example, that would NEVER happen.

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05-14-2014, 06:56 PM
  #59
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I didn't see the clips but star players in the 90s and in the DPE took a lot of abuse. Forsberg, Lindros, Bure, Neely. Derian Hatcher & Chris Therien were allowed to hang on your back all through the game and you had to watch out for cheapshots from Marchment, Dale Hunter & Ulf Samuelsson. Gretzky and the 80s perhaps a different story, but Crosby's no Gretzky in the first place as for playing style.
The DPE absolutely. The refs didn't call anything. And yes, in the early 90's the NHL turned a blind eye to cheap shots...kind of like they did to Matt Cooke this playoffs.

I also agree with BraveCanadian. Nobody seems to be protecting Crosby. I was unaware Bossy took so much abuse.

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05-14-2014, 09:10 PM
  #60
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I've said this before and will say it again. The best player in the NHL is always one where everyone else has envy towards. With social media and such we've just become even meaner as a sports loving society. It's almost more personal. But this stuff happened in Gretzky's day as well. I can remember it clearly. No one wanted a skinny kid to tear the NHL records apart. Hard to believe it took until 1982 for Gretzky to win the Pearson award. He just scraped through and won the Hart in 1981. Nothing against Liut, but Gretzky had a historical season where he shattered the points and assists record and the writers barely think he should have won the Hart. That tells you something there.

Then Mario in 1989 with a 199 point season not winning the Hart or Pearson. Hmmm. Tells you something a bit there doesn't it? This is how it was with Mario. He really didn't get respect until he had cancer. Or maybe got a bit of it from the two Cups, but his critics only then started to shut up in 1993 and I can remember his retirement in 1997 and his comeback in 2000 where the odd person would still say Mario didn't "care" about hockey and was a whiner. Here's a guy who has nothing left to prove, wins the scoring title in a season he has cancer and there are still people questioning his heart.

So I guess I am saying is that from modern memory Crosby has some company. They all "got it" when they were the best players. From that time before Crosby there were a mix of players. One like Jagr, Sakic, Iginla, Forsberg, etc. None of them got it bad at all except Jagr to an extent. There were always cries that he didn't try hard enough or that he should lead the Pens to a Cup ("he can't do it without Mario or Francis."). It never got to personal with Jagr for whatever reason. I guess we always thought of him more as that kid in our school who had a tough time speaking english. But he did get flack for that "salute" after he scored a goal. But Hasek drove everyone nuts outside of Buffalo. Sakic and Iginla were never outright the best in the sport and even then were hard to dislike either way.
I remember as a boy growing up just outside of Edmonton, my uncle complaining about Gretzky all the time. My uncle was a Hull, Howe, and Orr fan (in that order). He liked that all those guys were rough and tough and could hit, fight, and still score. Gretzky was this little weakling who was suddenly threatening the status quo. It was hard for him to accept that this scrawny little kid was destroying the records set by the idols he'd grown up with. It took him a lot time to finally start liking Gretzky for who he was and for what he did on the ice, but eventually he did.

And like you said, how does Gretzky only win 5 Pearsons? I mean, he had a 6 year span where he averaged over 200 pts - those should have all been guarantees. And before that, as you mention, we have 81 where he breaks the records for most assists and points in a single season. How does he not win there? There was just a lot of dislike for him because he didn't fit the "Don Cherry" type of player that people wanted.

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Another reason it is just pure jealousy is that I have conversations with fans and ask them who the best player in the world is. "It's NOT Crosby" they say. Hmmm. Why not? "Because he's a whiner."

"Alright, umm, sometimes when the camera is on a superstar 24/7 they are going to catch everything he does good or bad and the media likes to pick and choose the..................."

"I don't care, he's a whiner. A cry baby. Cindy Crosby!""

"Okay, well if you were a GM wouldn't you want him on your team?"

"No way, he's a whiner!"


Anyone else have conversations like this? They aren't all 14 year old kids. This is just people who make up their own mind with things and fly with it. But the media has created a monster and since the majority of our society lets the media dictate how they view life then they get a taste of Crosby all the time, good and bad and get resentful.

It will take some time, the kid is just 26 years old now. As I said, Jagr could drive people nuts back in the 1990s with his little quirks but today he's a 42 year old greybeard with lots of respect league wide. Time heals all wounds, you learn to appreciate a player once they are gone. I prefer living in the moment and enjoying them right now, but most people don't. Hence, you get the false idea that all of these all-time greats had the red carpet rolled out for them during their playing days, and they didn't.
And like you say here, part of it is just time. When Gretzky played he got a lot of this. So did Lemieux. So did Jagr in the 90's. After Crosby's been retired for 10 years, he'll probably be much more highly regarded.

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Originally Posted by BadgerBruce View Post
Crosby lacks the mythology associated with his predecessors. It’s that simple to me.

The Rocket? Just read “The Hockey Sweater” or the back of the old $5 bill. Think about that: the most read hockey book is about the Rocket and the Canadian Mint excerpted its opening on the back of our currency, complete with a picture of little number 9s on the skating rink. The story itself? Richard is a Christ figure, a fighter for francophone Canada. The man who inspired school children across the province to strike back, and some scholars link him directly to the Quiet Revolution. The Richard Riot. 5 consecutive “get even with them bigwigs” Stanley Cups to end his career. Last man called out to the ice when the forum was closing down, recipient of a genuine State Funeral.

Big Gordie? Now there’s a story about “the natural” of humble origins and even humbler character. A dirt poor kid from Saskatchewan, his mother buys a pair of old skates from a depression era beggar woman and Gordie has to (eventually) nab the second skate from his sister. Legendary physical strength (remember the story about him carrying a bag of concrete on each shoulder and one in his teeth?) Overlooked by the Rangers, signed by the Wings, nearly dies from a skull fracture in 1950, but miraculously returns to the game to shine once more the following season. Could have been the heavyweight champ, knocked balls clear out of Tiger Stadium, and defies father time for decades. Returns to the game after a 2 year hiatus to play with his sons and then even joins them in the NHL for one last hurrah and his FIFTH decade of professional hockey! Now there’s a mythological story!

Bobby Orr? Was the phrase “Boy Wonder” used before Orr’s emergence? Born in a small town, stumbled upon by a Bruins’ bird-dog while playing in a tournament in Gananoque (I dare you to try pronouncing that without any hiccups) as a 100 lb. 12 year old. Performer of on-ice feats beyond compare, revolutionizes the d-man position, eventually immortalized in a single photograph where he is flying through the air like a bird. And then tragedy: he’s not Atlas but instead Achilles (but with a bum knee) and tearfully retires, but not before thrilling his nation one last time by taking on the evil Soviets and leading Canada to victory. And he is still a boy! The horror of Evil Betrayal follows the tragedy as news of Eagleson’s treachery becomes common knowledge and Canadians from across the land curse the villainy of he who would crap upon our HERO and leave him a penniless bankrupt.

Gretzky? That’s easy, and I will be really quick here. Creation of the Sage Grandpa-like Walter, a true hockey savant (378 goals in a single Atom season?) and then a teenage sensation, shatters all records imaginable. Fistful of Stanley Cups in Edmonton and then weds a so-called Hollywood starlet in a ceremony broadcast coast to coast and called “Canada’s Royal Wedding.” He’s the man, the star, the greatest ever, a true patriot . . . and then he is betrayed and banished to a foreign land, his tears flowing on national television break our collective hearts and we weep along with him as our treasure is shipped off like a barrel of crude oil to the ugly and greedy Americans.

So why doesn’t Crosby get the love we bestow on the Rocket, Howe, Orr and Gretzky? Because there’s no universally accepted narrative yet, no myth-inspired life story that has worked its way into our collective consciousness to the point of becoming genuinely transcendent. But if you look closely at the Crosby story so far, many of the raw materials are already in place to construct just such a story.
And this here is the best post in this entire thread. And you are right - Crosby doesn't have the epic story yet that others have. But there's still time for him to write it on the ice.

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05-14-2014, 11:27 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by BadgerBruce View Post
Crosby lacks the mythology associated with his predecessors. It’s that simple to me.

The Rocket? Just read “The Hockey Sweater” or the back of the old $5 bill. Think about that: the most read hockey book is about the Rocket and the Canadian Mint excerpted its opening on the back of our currency, complete with a picture of little number 9s on the skating rink. The story itself? Richard is a Christ figure, a fighter for francophone Canada. The man who inspired school children across the province to strike back, and some scholars link him directly to the Quiet Revolution. The Richard Riot. 5 consecutive “get even with them bigwigs” Stanley Cups to end his career. Last man called out to the ice when the forum was closing down, recipient of a genuine State Funeral.

Big Gordie? Now there’s a story about “the natural” of humble origins and even humbler character. A dirt poor kid from Saskatchewan, his mother buys a pair of old skates from a depression era beggar woman and Gordie has to (eventually) nab the second skate from his sister. Legendary physical strength (remember the story about him carrying a bag of concrete on each shoulder and one in his teeth?) Overlooked by the Rangers, signed by the Wings, nearly dies from a skull fracture in 1950, but miraculously returns to the game to shine once more the following season. Could have been the heavyweight champ, knocked balls clear out of Tiger Stadium, and defies father time for decades. Returns to the game after a 2 year hiatus to play with his sons and then even joins them in the NHL for one last hurrah and his FIFTH decade of professional hockey! Now there’s a mythological story!

Bobby Orr? Was the phrase “Boy Wonder” used before Orr’s emergence? Born in a small town, stumbled upon by a Bruins’ bird-dog while playing in a tournament in Gananoque (I dare you to try pronouncing that without any hiccups) as a 100 lb. 12 year old. Performer of on-ice feats beyond compare, revolutionizes the d-man position, eventually immortalized in a single photograph where he is flying through the air like a bird. And then tragedy: he’s not Atlas but instead Achilles (but with a bum knee) and tearfully retires, but not before thrilling his nation one last time by taking on the evil Soviets and leading Canada to victory. And he is still a boy! The horror of Evil Betrayal follows the tragedy as news of Eagleson’s treachery becomes common knowledge and Canadians from across the land curse the villainy of he who would crap upon our HERO and leave him a penniless bankrupt.

Gretzky? That’s easy, and I will be really quick here. Creation of the Sage Grandpa-like Walter, a true hockey savant (378 goals in a single Atom season?) and then a teenage sensation, shatters all records imaginable. Fistful of Stanley Cups in Edmonton and then weds a so-called Hollywood starlet in a ceremony broadcast coast to coast and called “Canada’s Royal Wedding.” He’s the man, the star, the greatest ever, a true patriot . . . and then he is betrayed and banished to a foreign land, his tears flowing on national television break our collective hearts and we weep along with him as our treasure is shipped off like a barrel of crude oil to the ugly and greedy Americans.

So why doesn’t Crosby get the love we bestow on the Rocket, Howe, Orr and Gretzky? Because there’s no universally accepted narrative yet, no myth-inspired life story that has worked its way into our collective consciousness to the point of becoming genuinely transcendent. But if you look closely at the Crosby story so far, many of the raw materials are already in place to construct just such a story.
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Originally Posted by shazariahl View Post
And this here is the best post in this entire thread. And you are right - Crosby doesn't have the epic story yet that others have. But there's still time for him to write it on the ice.
i tend to agree. but it's not like people haven't tried to write that weepy canadiana story for crosby (remember all those maritime stories: edge of canada... land that time forgot... then came a kid... climbed up the brae with skateguards on...)
it's just that none of them have stuck. writers haven't piled onto one narrative with enough gusto to give it legs, and fans haven't latched on to make it legend. something less than likable about that kid; the people are speaking by not speaking.

will that change? i don't know. mario had to get cancer.

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05-15-2014, 12:23 AM
  #62
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The reason people "hate" Crosby is because media AND fans make the blanket statement that he's the best player when his on ice production simply isn't that of a best player. When it is all said and done I am not sure he'll be remembered as the best player on his own team

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05-15-2014, 05:28 AM
  #63
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The reason people "hate" Crosby is because media AND fans make the blanket statement that he's the best player when his on ice production simply isn't that of a best player. When it is all said and done I am not sure he'll be remembered as the best player on his own team
What? Who does have the on-ice production to be named the best player then?

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05-15-2014, 12:55 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
The reason people "hate" Crosby is because media AND fans make the blanket statement that he's the best player when his on ice production simply isn't that of a best player. When it is all said and done I am not sure he'll be remembered as the best player on his own team
Crosby's fourth all-time in PPG. How can you even begin to say this?

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05-15-2014, 04:34 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
The reason people "hate" Crosby is because media AND fans make the blanket statement that he's the best player when his on ice production simply isn't that of a best player. When it is all said and done I am not sure he'll be remembered as the best player on his own team
Look I know this is a big moment to pile on and everything and personally I am pretty disappointed in him at this moment as well. But if there are criticisms of the kid it comes from an all-time sense that he isn't doing what many of the giants of the game did before him. As for the current crop in the NHL, he is still the best player in the game. Right now we are in the heat of the moment and we are focused solely on the players remaining. Toews is a good example of a player who comes through when the chips are down but are we just one round away from complaining about Toews if they lose to L.A/Anaheim and praising how "clutch" Getzlaf is?

Right now taking everything into account, the regular season, the playoffs, the scoring title, etc. I still can't see where it is that Crosby is anything but the best in today's game still. One lousy playoff won't change the fact that just a month ago we were praising him because he led the NHL field in points by 17 which is the best in 15 years.

To truly be the best in the game you have to look at the whole picture and the whole picture still favours Crosby. It's slipping, but no one has grabbed the mantle quite yet. You might put Toews a clear #2 if the Hawks win the Cup though, if not already.

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05-15-2014, 05:07 PM
  #66
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I'm hoping that doesn't happen. I'm just intrigued by the idea that for the first time in NHL history, the best player of his generation will be remembered as a whiner and a diver by the majority of hockey fans, and not revered and loved.
Super, Jagr, Wayne among the most winning and best players of all time. Crosby isn't a top 10 ever.
Personality wise I don't care for Did. The aforementioned are better players who have better leadership qualities and more interesting personalities. Lemeuix was so dominate for instance yet so humble. He battled cancer to come back and reek havoc. He did it with such professionalism. Most players whine and complain so Sidney isn't in an exclusive club. Star players don't usually play a questionable game that borders on dirty. For me Sid isn't unlikable but he kind of reminds me of Arod.

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05-15-2014, 06:11 PM
  #67
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The reason why some hate Crosby is because we are told on countless occasions by the media and by some of his fans on how "amazing he is" and how he is the closest to Lemieux and Gretzky when in reality it's far from the truth.

Crosby makes a routine play in a game and someone like Pierre Maguire is frothing from the mouth on how "amazing that play is and how Crosby is the only player that can make that play". Seriously?

The reason some of us hate him so much is because of the media overexposure and saturation, the hyping, the unreasonable expectations (Crosby not being able to meet expectations), the overrating of every single one of his accomplishments, the excuses for his playoff failures....

There are many reasons and not to mention the fact that he's not a good ol' Canadian boy or an innocent by standard but rather he is a coward on the ice who cheap shots players (anyone remember his cheap shots on Giroux in the 2012 playoffss?) the whining, the diving, the coddling he receives from his team and media, the self entitlement he exudes.

All reasons why some of us hate him.

If someone lives in Toronto and can confirm this, I picked up the Toronto Star Thursday May 15th's edition this morning and turned it to the Sports section. They had an article about Crosby and the columnist basically blamed the Penguins organization for not giving Crosby the support he needs to play better in the playoffs. Why is that when they are finishing top 2 in the Eastern Conference every season, the Penguins and Crosby fans are boasting about how great their team is and how they are the favorites to win the Cup (2012-13 being the biggest example of this) but when Crosby especially and the rest of the team "chokes" it becomes everyone's fault but Crosby's?

"Great players" score and perform great in spite of how bad their teams are.

Gretzky did it, Lemieux did it, Jagr did it.

Crosby hasn't done it.

I can't recall a time where Crosby's team was the heavy underdog and where on his sheer brilliance and domination won the series. In fact I recall quite the opposite. Crosby has been in the middle of losing to huge underdogs Montreal, Philadelphia, Boston (not heavy underdogs but a lower seed than Pittsburgh who just missed out on winning the President's trophy in 2012-13 and this season against New York.

In comparison (Jagr a player who some posters say is not better than Crosby) has helped his sometimes heavy underdog teams to upsets over much higher seeded teams (sometimes even when he was injured), 1999 vs the Devils (Penguins 8th seed vs Devils 1st seed) or in 2000 vs the Capitals (Penguins 7th seed vs Capitals 2nd seed) and even in 2008 when the Rangers were the 6th seed and the Devils were the 3rd.

Crosby has never put his stamp on any series in that sense and yet is heralded as some "great playoff player" by some fans and I'm sorry but they were the favorites against the Capitals and if I recall Crosby did have 13 Pts but Malkin had 10 Pts and Ovechkin who basically had no one had 12 Pts in a losing cause.


Last edited by livewell68: 05-15-2014 at 06:32 PM.
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05-15-2014, 10:09 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Right now taking everything into account, the regular season, the playoffs, the scoring title, etc. I still can't see where it is that Crosby is anything but the best in today's game still. One lousy playoff won't change the fact that just a month ago we were praising him because he led the NHL field in points by 17 which is the best in 15 years.
100% correct.

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Star players don't usually play a questionable game that borders on dirty.
Bryan Trottier...Denis Potvin...Bobby Clarke...Peter Forsberg...Mark Messier...want me to go on? The list is long. In fact, chippiness is one of the elements that made each of these players exceptional. Crosby's so called "dirtiness" (which I have never seen and if does exist, good for him) is light years removed from these greats.

***

Criticism of Crosby's postseason play is valid. But the attempted deconstruction of what is already a lock HOF career makes for interesting reading. Creative, fictional reading, that is.

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05-15-2014, 10:59 PM
  #69
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What? Who does have the on-ice production to be named the best player then?
Someone who hasn't been a minus in the playoffs three years in a row

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05-16-2014, 02:21 AM
  #70
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This really no longer needs to be debated. All the issues have been covered. Crosby is a whiner. He was overexposed which saturates our interest in him. He is definitely not a transcendent player like Gretzky or Lemieux. All of that being said, he IS the best offensive player of the past 20 years. His consistency trump the highs and lows of his peers and top the peaks of guys like Naslund and St Louis before him.

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05-16-2014, 03:05 AM
  #71
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Originally Posted by JaysCyYoung View Post
Crosby's fourth all-time in PPG. How can you even begin to say this?
He also is only 26 and isn't old enough yet to even begin to regress. He is at most only played 40% of his career so far with it all being prime and peak time with no age challenged years yet or even thought about (assuming no freak injury/occurance like some legends have had). I would safely wager that in 5-7 years he would be in the 80-90 point per year range if he plays 75+ games a year (as long as his team doesn't become loaded to all hell for a cap era team).

Also one thing about his ppg is also the league has Crosby's book now so unless he is playing a cellar dwelling team that simply put lacks the talent or structure to defend him the league is now aware of what you have to do to contain him now. It won't happen night in night out I give you but it isn't entirely a shock when he plays against a well kept team he isn't very "high impact" like when he plays some scrub team and then dusts off 3+ points on some garbage time results.

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05-16-2014, 04:17 AM
  #72
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It's funny, I was starting to like the guy again in the midst of his concussions. I felt sympathy for the guy, but that 2012 Flyers series made me repulsed by him all over again. He's extremely unlikable because of the way he acts and behaves on the ice.

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05-16-2014, 05:17 AM
  #73
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Originally Posted by PhillyBluesFan View Post
Someone who hasn't been a minus in the playoffs three years in a row
You need some footnotes to accompany this in-depth research.

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05-16-2014, 05:20 AM
  #74
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He also is only 26 and isn't old enough yet to even begin to regress. He is at most only played 40% of his career so far with it all being prime and peak time with no age challenged years yet or even thought about (assuming no freak injury/occurance like some legends have had). I would safely wager that in 5-7 years he would be in the 80-90 point per year range if he plays 75+ games a year (as long as his team doesn't become loaded to all hell for a cap era team).

Also one thing about his ppg is also the league has Crosby's book now so unless he is playing a cellar dwelling team that simply put lacks the talent or structure to defend him the league is now aware of what you have to do to contain him now. It won't happen night in night out I give you but it isn't entirely a shock when he plays against a well kept team he isn't very "high impact" like when he plays some scrub team and then dusts off 3+ points on some garbage time results.
So an expected lowering of his PPG and a hypothetical scenario that hasn't happened over his previous 9 years means he isn't the best in the game?

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05-16-2014, 05:28 AM
  #75
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Originally Posted by Cyborg Yzerman View Post
It's funny, I was starting to like the guy again in the midst of his concussions. I felt sympathy for the guy, but that 2012 Flyers series made me repulsed by him all over again. He's extremely unlikable because of the way he acts and behaves on the ice.
Who are some elite players who do not act or behave the way that he does on the ice?

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