HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Historic Hatred For Crosby (Mod Warning - Post #2)

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
05-16-2014, 07:52 AM
  #76
The Panther
Registered User
 
The Panther's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: Tokyo, Japan
Country: Japan
Posts: 514
vCash: 500
Crosby is now about the same age as Orr when he left Boston, and only one year younger than Gretzky when he was traded from Edmonton.

Does anyone know what he does, outside of hockey? I've never heard anything. Like, does he have an obsessive habit, like Jimmy Carson with business or Tim Horton with doughnut shops?

Maybe he'll surprise everyone and suddenly retire at age 28...

The Panther is offline  
Old
05-16-2014, 07:57 AM
  #77
livewell68
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,753
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by buffalowing88 View Post
This really no longer needs to be debated. All the issues have been covered. Crosby is a whiner. He was overexposed which saturates our interest in him. He is definitely not a transcendent player like Gretzky or Lemieux. All of that being said, he IS the best offensive player of the past 20 years. His consistency trump the highs and lows of his peers and top the peaks of guys like Naslund and St Louis before him.
You do realize that Jagr played over the past 20 years right? You know the player that won 5 Art Ross and was top 2 in points 7 times total? You know the very same player who was a Hart Finalist 6 times? Crosby is not the best offensive player of the past 20 years especially considering he lost an Art Ross to Sedin and the fact that he only has 2 Art Ross trophies in 9 years when Malkin has 2 in the same timeframe despite only playing 8 years in the league.

livewell68 is offline  
Old
05-16-2014, 08:04 AM
  #78
Ohashi_Jouzu
Registered User
 
Ohashi_Jouzu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Halifax
Country: Japan
Posts: 21,627
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
You do realize that Jagr played over the past 20 years right? You know the player that won 5 Art Ross and was top 2 in points 7 times total? You know the very same player who was a Hart Finalist 6 times? Crosby is not the best offensive player of the past 20 years especially considering he lost an Art Ross to Sedin and the fact that he only has 2 Art Ross trophies in 9 years when Malkin has 2 in the same timeframe despite only playing 8 years in the league.
The correct answer is probably still Mario, with his 7 seasons, but there's at least one way to show that Crosby is next behind him: Highest PPGs over the past 20 years. It's not necessarily the best way, or even a good way, but it's a way.

Ohashi_Jouzu is offline  
Old
05-16-2014, 08:57 AM
  #79
Boxscore
pre-Dead Puck Era
 
Boxscore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: 1985-94
Posts: 4,462
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
The reason why some hate Crosby is because we are told on countless occasions by the media and by some of his fans on how "amazing he is" and how he is the closest to Lemieux and Gretzky when in reality it's far from the truth.

Crosby makes a routine play in a game and someone like Pierre Maguire is frothing from the mouth on how "amazing that play is and how Crosby is the only player that can make that play". Seriously?

The reason some of us hate him so much is because of the media overexposure and saturation, the hyping, the unreasonable expectations (Crosby not being able to meet expectations), the overrating of every single one of his accomplishments, the excuses for his playoff failures....

There are many reasons and not to mention the fact that he's not a good ol' Canadian boy or an innocent by standard but rather he is a coward on the ice who cheap shots players (anyone remember his cheap shots on Giroux in the 2012 playoffss?) the whining, the diving, the coddling he receives from his team and media, the self entitlement he exudes.

All reasons why some of us hate him.

If someone lives in Toronto and can confirm this, I picked up the Toronto Star Thursday May 15th's edition this morning and turned it to the Sports section. They had an article about Crosby and the columnist basically blamed the Penguins organization for not giving Crosby the support he needs to play better in the playoffs. Why is that when they are finishing top 2 in the Eastern Conference every season, the Penguins and Crosby fans are boasting about how great their team is and how they are the favorites to win the Cup (2012-13 being the biggest example of this) but when Crosby especially and the rest of the team "chokes" it becomes everyone's fault but Crosby's?

"Great players" score and perform great in spite of how bad their teams are.

Gretzky did it, Lemieux did it, Jagr did it.

Crosby hasn't done it.

I can't recall a time where Crosby's team was the heavy underdog and where on his sheer brilliance and domination won the series. In fact I recall quite the opposite. Crosby has been in the middle of losing to huge underdogs Montreal, Philadelphia, Boston (not heavy underdogs but a lower seed than Pittsburgh who just missed out on winning the President's trophy in 2012-13 and this season against New York.

In comparison (Jagr a player who some posters say is not better than Crosby) has helped his sometimes heavy underdog teams to upsets over much higher seeded teams (sometimes even when he was injured), 1999 vs the Devils (Penguins 8th seed vs Devils 1st seed) or in 2000 vs the Capitals (Penguins 7th seed vs Capitals 2nd seed) and even in 2008 when the Rangers were the 6th seed and the Devils were the 3rd.

Crosby has never put his stamp on any series in that sense and yet is heralded as some "great playoff player" by some fans and I'm sorry but they were the favorites against the Capitals and if I recall Crosby did have 13 Pts but Malkin had 10 Pts and Ovechkin who basically had no one had 12 Pts in a losing cause.
Great post. You're absolutely right. You're point about the talking heads like Pierre is also bang on. Patrick Kane makes one of the most beautiful goals I've seen in a long time a couple of weeks ago and it is shown one night. Crosby makes a goal that is nice (but not as nice as the Kane goal) and it is oversold and shoved down our throats for a week or month.

Crosby really is the Justin Bieber of the NHL. He's great at what he does but he's small, whiny, irritating and the masses are just sick of hearing about him 24/7.

Boxscore is offline  
Old
05-16-2014, 09:49 AM
  #80
livewell68
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 6,753
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
The correct answer is probably still Mario, with his 7 seasons, but there's at least one way to show that Crosby is next behind him: Highest PPGs over the past 20 years. It's not necessarily the best way, or even a good way, but it's a way.
Or we can look at it this way. In full seasons (not 41 games or 22 game stretches) Crosby has had 2 seasons in which his PPG ( I'm being generous and giving Crosby the 36 games he had last season) was 1.50 or better. He has only played at a 120 pts pace twice in his career when playing 75% or more of the season. His top finishes are 1, 1, 2, 3, 3. Using PPG alone without context and games played is misleading.

Now on to Jagr; best finishes are 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 5, 5, 8, 9. That is a total of 11 top 10 finishes. Jagr played at a 120 pts pace or better 7 times in his career in which he played 75% of the games or more. In terms of PPG, he's had 6 seasons (where he played a minimum of 75% of the games) where his PPG was 1.50 or better.

In fact between 1994-95 & 2000-01 his PPG was 1.55. That's a string of 7 seasons where he played at a 126 pts pace. Add to the fact that he played almost as many games as Crosby has in 9 years in just 7 years and you see why PPG for Crosby is misleading.

livewell68 is offline  
Old
05-16-2014, 10:06 AM
  #81
Mantha Poodoo
Playoff Beard
 
Mantha Poodoo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Posts: 3,888
vCash: 500
To me, part of is that it's Crosby is Mr. Generic. Sure, there's some of the whining and stick antics and so forth you can point to, and that surely factors in. Other greats have overcome that, though.

Likewise, he doesn't have the biggest highlight reel generating style of play despite his offense. But again, other greats have overcome that.

The "problem" is that Crosby is like the corporate logo of NHL players. He's bland, he's safe. His interviews are usually "perfect" from a PR/PC/etc stance. Word never gets out about him doing anything "bad" away from hockey. Or much of anything for that matter. He's sort of the sterile corporate environment that people are coming to hate, in the form of a hockey player. The NHL, in the eyes of some, has been moving to this sterile image for sometime and he's more or less the player they've marketed as the front for that.

To the casual fan, they probably don't see or care about that so much. For the more hardcore fan that tends to frequent any sort of online social media and discuss hockey, they likely have a more romantic view of the sport, and find such sterility antithetical to the passion and flavor they want to see in the game. It's not just Crosby in particular, a fair bit of it is hating him as a symbol of "what the NHL is becoming." (No hit league, yadda yadda...)

Mantha Poodoo is offline  
Old
05-16-2014, 10:26 AM
  #82
shazariahl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,420
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
The reason why some hate Crosby is because we are told on countless occasions by the media and by some of his fans on how "amazing he is" and how he is the closest to Lemieux and Gretzky when in reality it's far from the truth.

Crosby makes a routine play in a game and someone like Pierre Maguire is frothing from the mouth on how "amazing that play is and how Crosby is the only player that can make that play". Seriously?

The reason some of us hate him so much is because of the media overexposure and saturation, the hyping, the unreasonable expectations (Crosby not being able to meet expectations), the overrating of every single one of his accomplishments, the excuses for his playoff failures....

There are many reasons and not to mention the fact that he's not a good ol' Canadian boy or an innocent by standard but rather he is a coward on the ice who cheap shots players (anyone remember his cheap shots on Giroux in the 2012 playoffss?) the whining, the diving, the coddling he receives from his team and media, the self entitlement he exudes.

All reasons why some of us hate him.

If someone lives in Toronto and can confirm this, I picked up the Toronto Star Thursday May 15th's edition this morning and turned it to the Sports section. They had an article about Crosby and the columnist basically blamed the Penguins organization for not giving Crosby the support he needs to play better in the playoffs. Why is that when they are finishing top 2 in the Eastern Conference every season, the Penguins and Crosby fans are boasting about how great their team is and how they are the favorites to win the Cup (2012-13 being the biggest example of this) but when Crosby especially and the rest of the team "chokes" it becomes everyone's fault but Crosby's?

"Great players" score and perform great in spite of how bad their teams are.

Gretzky did it, Lemieux did it, Jagr did it.

Crosby hasn't done it.

I can't recall a time where Crosby's team was the heavy underdog and where on his sheer brilliance and domination won the series. In fact I recall quite the opposite. Crosby has been in the middle of losing to huge underdogs Montreal, Philadelphia, Boston (not heavy underdogs but a lower seed than Pittsburgh who just missed out on winning the President's trophy in 2012-13 and this season against New York.

In comparison (Jagr a player who some posters say is not better than Crosby) has helped his sometimes heavy underdog teams to upsets over much higher seeded teams (sometimes even when he was injured), 1999 vs the Devils (Penguins 8th seed vs Devils 1st seed) or in 2000 vs the Capitals (Penguins 7th seed vs Capitals 2nd seed) and even in 2008 when the Rangers were the 6th seed and the Devils were the 3rd.

Crosby has never put his stamp on any series in that sense and yet is heralded as some "great playoff player" by some fans and I'm sorry but they were the favorites against the Capitals and if I recall Crosby did have 13 Pts but Malkin had 10 Pts and Ovechkin who basically had no one had 12 Pts in a losing cause.
This is a good post too. Fact is, people like an underdog. Gretzky came in small, weak, under sized. Critics were saying he couldn't make it, etc. Then he smashes every offensive record ever and sets marks that will never be beaten. And he was clutch - he came through in the playoffs over and over, even when his team didn't always perform at their best. He had heart - he played some of his best hockey internationally for his country when there was no reason to do so other than pride and love of the game.

Mario wasn't well liked until he got cancer, then makes one of the most amazing comebacks in all of professional sports. Jagr had a lot of the anti-European bias against him at the start of his career, which didn't really start to change until he'd won multiple scoring titles and proved that he was still good enough to play in his 40's. I think Jagr is more well-liked now than he was 10 years ago.

But with Crosby we're constantly being told he's the best. Like you mention, there's times he makes decent but not exceptional plays, and commentators are piling on the praise like it was the greatest feat since Hercules. The Pens were instantly the cup favorite since him and Geno both started playing together. He won a cup early - maybe too early, which made expectations so much higher. You can't be the underdog when we're constantly being told you're the best and you play on a team that is constantly expected to win cups. By the time Gretzky's Oilers were a dynasty and were expected to win, he'd already broken all the records, proven the critics wrong, and had reached the point of the "story" where the underdog overcomes the odds and wins the victory. Crosby started with the victory, and has been trying to get back there ever since.

shazariahl is offline  
Old
05-16-2014, 10:46 AM
  #83
Boxscore
pre-Dead Puck Era
 
Boxscore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: 1985-94
Posts: 4,462
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mantha Poodoo View Post
To me, part of is that it's Crosby is Mr. Generic. Sure, there's some of the whining and stick antics and so forth you can point to, and that surely factors in. Other greats have overcome that, though.

Likewise, he doesn't have the biggest highlight reel generating style of play despite his offense. But again, other greats have overcome that.

The "problem" is that Crosby is like the corporate logo of NHL players. He's bland, he's safe. His interviews are usually "perfect" from a PR/PC/etc stance. Word never gets out about him doing anything "bad" away from hockey. Or much of anything for that matter. He's sort of the sterile corporate environment that people are coming to hate, in the form of a hockey player. The NHL, in the eyes of some, has been moving to this sterile image for sometime and he's more or less the player they've marketed as the front for that.

To the casual fan, they probably don't see or care about that so much. For the more hardcore fan that tends to frequent any sort of online social media and discuss hockey, they likely have a more romantic view of the sport, and find such sterility antithetical to the passion and flavor they want to see in the game. It's not just Crosby in particular, a fair bit of it is hating him as a symbol of "what the NHL is becoming." (No hit league, yadda yadda...)
Very well said. You are tapping into the legitimate emotions of the NHL fan, and I agree with you. Most of what we instinctively "like" or "don't like" is, in fact, subconscious. If you meet someone, you instinctively make a "gut call" on them within the first 8 seconds... it's a proven and well-researched fact. When you look at product's packaging, we make a decision subconsciously and it trickles over to your conscious decision-making only when we create an intellectual alibi (a reason to consciously justify our emotions). That's why people say, "don't judge a book by its cover" because books (and products) are often judged that way.

I actually think your short post is one of the most bang-on and interesting posts regarding Sidney Crosby I've read in a long time. I'm firmly convinced that Crosby is lethally polarizing, even more so than Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux, Lindros, etc. because of what he "represents."

I've been a fan of this sport for 40 years or so and have followed, played and coached the game. It's my main passion in life, nothing comes close. I have a very vast and diverse hockey group of friends and associates. Here's what I've found:

Modern-day NHL fans (mostly on the younger side, 28 and under): Like Crosby and tend to overrate him.

Casual fans (people who consider hockey a secondary or fringe sport among their favorites): Think Crosby is among the best players of, perhaps, all-time.

Die-hard fans (non-Pens fans): Think Crosby is overrated and really can't stand him.

Hockey historians (unbiased thinkers who adore the history of the game in every facet): Think Crosby is a great player, maybe the best today, but feel he is overrated because he is top-of-mind and over-marketed.

At least this is the sense I get from the people I know, and how I divide them into groups.

But at that subconscious level, people loathe corporations. They hate what they represent and align them to deceit and deception. It's like the weight loss program that uses a perfectly sculpted model to "sell you" on the results YOU will have after trying their product for a month. It's advertising and marketing to play on your emotions.

Gary Bettman is a brilliant marketer. He also knows how to make a buck. He knew that Crosby was the "perfect face" for the NHL brand. Like the poster I quoted said, "he is safe." Bettman (and the NHL corporation) turned Crosby the player into Crosby the icon and have chosen to market him to the masses as "the greatest." And, just like with any other product, once you head down that marketing path, perception overtakes reality.

Those who are paid to cover the NHL know their job is to report the game but also increase interest and publicize the game because that's what ultimately drives revenue. And what is needed to generate interest? DRAMA. Story lines. Heroes and villains. Crosby has been forced down our throats as the label for everything "good" about the NHL and a portion of it is fabricated. That's not Crosby's fault... he's a pawn. But he doesn't help himself because he comes off as bratty and whiny.

It's interesting, the best film making book I ever read had a quotes from George Lucas and Steven King about developing brilliant characters. The one thing they both said is that, "People love good guys. People also love bad guys IF they are legitimately bad and good at what they do. But people do not like phonies and don't like to be deceived."

Not that Crosby is a phony, but I'd classify him as a great player who's legend has benefited from a corporate agenda and he's also "squirrely" which makes him unlikable to many people. What I mean by that is this:

VILLAINS: Matthew Barnaby, Sean Avery, Scott Stevens, Chris Chelios, Eric Lindros, Alex Ovechkin, Corey Perry, PK Subban and Milan Lucic. You either like them or hate them, but everyone knows what they are. A couple of them are villains because they are sinister, a few because they are mean and terrorizing, and one (Ovechkin) because the hockey world needed to create a "heel" to Sidney Crosby's "hero."

HEROES: Sidney Crosby, Jonathan Toews, Steven Stamkos, Martin St. Louis. These guys are all that is "good and pure" with the NHL and game of hockey.

The problem with Crosby is that, even though he's classified (and branded) as a hero, the reality doesn't match the perception. He's dirty in ways, he's whiny, he dives, he cries and complains. He doesn't inspire anyone with poetic or emotional speeches or promises. In many ways, he's actually very unlikable from an entertainment standpoint.

This is what makes Sid (the person) so polarizing. I really don't think there would be so much venom for Crosby if he was either a full-fledged VILLAIN or HERO. But he's a tweener who is over-marketed to begin with so he's become very annoying.


Last edited by Boxscore: 05-16-2014 at 10:56 AM.
Boxscore is offline  
Old
05-16-2014, 12:10 PM
  #84
Cyborg Yzerman
Remember Alf?
 
Cyborg Yzerman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Nowhere Land
Country: Sao Tome e Principe
Posts: 4,750
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DyerMaker66 View Post
Who are some elite players who do not act or behave the way that he does on the ice?
Pavel Datsyuk, Henrik Zetterberg, John Tavares, Steven Stamkos, and in the past,Joe Sakic, Steve Yzerman, among others.

Cyborg Yzerman is offline  
Old
05-16-2014, 12:19 PM
  #85
Boxscore
pre-Dead Puck Era
 
Boxscore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: 1985-94
Posts: 4,462
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborg Yzerman View Post
Pavel Datsyuk, Henrik Zetterberg, John Tavares, Steven Stamkos, and in the past,Joe Sakic, Steve Yzerman, among others.
Patrick Kane, Zach Parise, Jamie Benn, Claude Giroux, Anze Kopitar, Eric Staal, Martin St. Louis, Phil Kessel, Jason Spezza, Patrice Bergeron, Logan Couture, Nathan MacKinnon, Marian Hossa, etc. there's many.

Boxscore is offline  
Old
05-16-2014, 02:52 PM
  #86
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,374
vCash: 500
I guess here's another tidbit. Ray Shero and Dan Bylsma got fired today. That's a shame really. Crosby underacheives and they get the boot. Even a trip to the Cup final would have saved their jobs. This is the third coach who has been fired since Crosby has entered the NHL on Pittsburgh. He will enter his 10th season next year with his 4th coach. Alright, no big deal right? Coaches get fired all the time and Ovechkin the noted "coach killer" has had the same issue.

The thing is, this was a great tandem for a long time. Shero was always able to make bold moves and never stopped trying to make the team better. Bylsma might not be the best coach in the world, but he let Malkin and Crosby do their thing and didn't keep a leash on them. They just might not be so lucky next year. They could have a Ken Hitchcock-type coach who makes life miserable for them................or in that case they could just grab their assistant coach Jacques Martin.

I guess if you compare things, Gretzky only had one coach the entire time he was on Edmonton. Gretzky just never seemed to get pandered to as much. He thrived in every situation, with any type of linemate and he never stopped producing.

Did we just put some unrealistic expectations on Crosby from day one? Did we WANT him to be another Gretzky? Did we push it because we were so desperate to see it again? I think we did, and I think after his second season when he racked up 120 points as a teenager we just naturally assumed he would continue to get better and his offense would gradually improve. Or when he won in 2009 who among us thought he'd still have just one by 2014? I didn't. That Pens team was young (still is), had two of the top 3 players in the game, a supposedly clutch goalie, a strong defense and one of the best supporting players in the game in Staal. I honestly thought this team could win 4 in a row. So maybe it is our fault that this happens. Maybe the fact that Gretzky did all of those magnificent things is an example of how he is a once in a lifetime player and we shouldn't expect anyone to do anything close to that again.

Big Phil is offline  
Old
05-16-2014, 03:17 PM
  #87
Cruor
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 420
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Did we just put some unrealistic expectations on Crosby from day one? Did we WANT him to be another Gretzky? Did we push it because we were so desperate to see it again? I think we did, and I think after his second season when he racked up 120 points as a teenager we just naturally assumed he would continue to get better and his offense would gradually improve. Or when he won in 2009 who among us thought he'd still have just one by 2014? I didn't. That Pens team was young (still is), had two of the top 3 players in the game, a supposedly clutch goalie, a strong defense and one of the best supporting players in the game in Staal. I honestly thought this team could win 4 in a row. So maybe it is our fault that this happens. Maybe the fact that Gretzky did all of those magnificent things is an example of how he is a once in a lifetime player and we shouldn't expect anyone to do anything close to that again.
Good post, and I think you are right. I remember the Lindros hype, and it was massive even in Europe. The "Next One" narrative was rolled out in full force by Nike/NHL. I don't think he ever realized that need for a heir to 66/99 so people jumped on Crosby with all the more fervour.

Cruor is offline  
Old
05-16-2014, 04:25 PM
  #88
Boxscore
pre-Dead Puck Era
 
Boxscore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: 1985-94
Posts: 4,462
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
I guess here's another tidbit. Ray Shero and Dan Bylsma got fired today. That's a shame really. Crosby underacheives and they get the boot. Even a trip to the Cup final would have saved their jobs. This is the third coach who has been fired since Crosby has entered the NHL on Pittsburgh. He will enter his 10th season next year with his 4th coach. Alright, no big deal right? Coaches get fired all the time and Ovechkin the noted "coach killer" has had the same issue.

The thing is, this was a great tandem for a long time. Shero was always able to make bold moves and never stopped trying to make the team better. Bylsma might not be the best coach in the world, but he let Malkin and Crosby do their thing and didn't keep a leash on them. They just might not be so lucky next year. They could have a Ken Hitchcock-type coach who makes life miserable for them................or in that case they could just grab their assistant coach Jacques Martin.

I guess if you compare things, Gretzky only had one coach the entire time he was on Edmonton. Gretzky just never seemed to get pandered to as much. He thrived in every situation, with any type of linemate and he never stopped producing.

Did we just put some unrealistic expectations on Crosby from day one? Did we WANT him to be another Gretzky? Did we push it because we were so desperate to see it again? I think we did, and I think after his second season when he racked up 120 points as a teenager we just naturally assumed he would continue to get better and his offense would gradually improve. Or when he won in 2009 who among us thought he'd still have just one by 2014? I didn't. That Pens team was young (still is), had two of the top 3 players in the game, a supposedly clutch goalie, a strong defense and one of the best supporting players in the game in Staal. I honestly thought this team could win 4 in a row. So maybe it is our fault that this happens. Maybe the fact that Gretzky did all of those magnificent things is an example of how he is a once in a lifetime player and we shouldn't expect anyone to do anything close to that again.
Big Phil this is a great post. I think this thread is now developing some very interesting conversation. I guess my response to you would be, "yes and no" and here's why:

I honestly don't think fans like you, me, or many on this forum need to be "sold to" as hockey fans. We've lived through Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, etc. and realize how much of a treat those years were as hockey fans. But we've also lived through the late-90s to lockout years where the league had many stars like Sakic, Yzerman, Jagr, Bure, Lindros, Forsberg, Naslund, Thornton, etc. but not ONE main "immortal" and hockey was still entertaining.

But, I think the NHL saw the opportunity to create a "face" to their league and decided Crosby was going to be THE player they mass market. The social media boom and National TV growth in the States, including a 24 hour NHL Network, convinced them that the "average fan" needed a "Wayne Gretzky" or "Mario Lemieux" to latch onto.

The NHL stole a page right from the NBA playbook and it's not surprising considering Bettman's history and tutelage under the NBA umbrella. The NBA is the biggest fabricated league in professional sports by far. They've always been about "sizzle" and "fluff" since the days of Michael Jordan. They turned into a freak show of slam dunks, drama, heroes & villains and story lines. There's in-depth reports, and well-detailed stories on how the NBA has covered up corruption, conspiracy and even went as far to protect Michael Jordan's image because they feared the repercussions of latching their entire brand to his back... and if he went down, they'd go down with him.

The NHL saw the opportunity to follow suit and they jumped right in with both feet. The "glow puck," the "shootout"... all to help "sell" a product that the league didn't feel it could sell without gimmickry. Part of that plan was to market this new "face" every opportunity it could, and they did.

Here's the problem with that. Instead of stealing from the NBA playbook, the NHL should have taken a page from the NFL's playbook (perhaps the greatest run pro league in sports history). They don't market "one player." They market A BUNCH of players. They market their league. They market match-ups. They don't latch onto a single player as if the league couldn't exist without them. They market Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Adrian Peterson, Megatron, Aaron Rodgers, RG III, LeSean McCoy and Andrew Luck all equally. They market their teams and their fans (the Seahawks 12th man as an example). The make THE GAME an "event" and they wouldn't turn every Pens HNIC match-up into the "Sidney Crosby Show" like the NHL does... over and over and over and over again.

The way the NHL over-saturates their messaging with Crosby is like a brand running the SAME TV commercial multiple times every day. The message breaks through and becomes top-of-mind but it eventually becomes overbearing, annoying and offensive. The NHL has crossed that threshold 5 times over with "Sid the Kid." Where's all the publicity and love for Malkin? Stamkos? Ovechkin? Kane? Doughty? Karlsson? Lundqvist? Price? Subban? Toews? Kopitar? These guys get no marketing burn on the National stage. And, quite frankly, it's not even fair to Crosby. I'm sure he wouldn't mind being out from under the lamp for a little bit.

Boxscore is offline  
Old
05-16-2014, 04:40 PM
  #89
vadim sharifijanov
Registered User
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 8,955
vCash: 500
in the same way i think of shaq and lindros as analogous figures (though obviously with very different end results), i think you have to compare crosby to lebron. people absolutely hated lebron; he took more crap (some of it deserved) than probably any other athlete of the internet era. but even the most ardent lebron-hater has had to come to begrudgingly respect him because he channeled all of the pressure on his shoulders into catapulting himself into a historical conversation. he might not be jordan (or he might be; he might still be improving), but he's pushed himself into the upper echelon of all basketball players ever. and so as much as you might resent him being crowned "the king" before he earned it, as much as you might hate him for whining or choking or quitting on his team or leaving cleveland, in the end he came through on the hype and through sheer force of "i'll stop at nothing" won those championships.

crosby, i think, hasn't come through on the hype yet. maybe not his fault, but the standard set for him isn't yzerman/sakic; it's bobby hull at the lowest. but as big phil says above, probably an unrealistic standard and one he likely won't ever reach.

vadim sharifijanov is offline  
Old
05-16-2014, 06:44 PM
  #90
odin1981
Registered User
 
odin1981's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Canton Mi
Country: United States
Posts: 1,383
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by daver View Post
So an expected lowering of his PPG and a hypothetical scenario that hasn't happened over his previous 9 years means he isn't the best in the game?
No to judge his ppg as they are now is foolhardy imho. He hasn't left his prime so his #'s are inflated to this point without the regression that players he is being compared to that have played their entire careers already is favoring him solely. The only player to a degree that he could be compared to would be Lindros atm.

Stacking his numbers up against other hockey players that played threw regressions and as such there numbers fell as they aged when he hasn't even hit that point in his career arc is stupid.

Especially when you consider that while no one doubts he is skilled offensively he plays similiar to a grinder with a very north-south approach. Unless he matures his game as most greats have over the next 1-2 years for around a 2-3 year period to change his game to adjust his game as he ages there is a rather high likelyhood that he potentially could regress something rather fierce compared to greats that have have played on to later ages and made changes due to not being 25 or under anymore.

odin1981 is offline  
Old
05-16-2014, 06:50 PM
  #91
Cruor
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 420
vCash: 500
The whole PPG argument is a bit twilight zone, I remember a few years back when Foppa was being touted as great due to his ppg. The immediate answer from his detractors was that his numbers would drop significantly if he had to play a full injury free schedule.

But for Crosby it apparently cements his place as top three with Mario and Gretz.

Cruor is offline  
Old
05-16-2014, 08:19 PM
  #92
Boxscore
pre-Dead Puck Era
 
Boxscore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: 1985-94
Posts: 4,462
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruor View Post
The whole PPG argument is a bit twilight zone, I remember a few years back when Foppa was being touted as great due to his ppg. The immediate answer from his detractors was that his numbers would drop significantly if he had to play a full injury free schedule.

But for Crosby it apparently cements his place as top three with Mario and Gretz.
I think you're talking about a different variable of Crosby's (and Forsberg's) PPG points. You are referring to Forsberg's PPG being prorated over a "healthy" season. The other poster is referring to Crosby's eventual PPG lowering as he hits 32 and older and his game regresses. That's two different things.

When Lindros was 6 years into the league or so, his PPG were in the top 5-8 all-time range. But as he aged and his game began to fade as he bounced from NY to Toronto to Dallas, etc. his PPG dropped on the list.

Boxscore is offline  
Old
05-16-2014, 08:36 PM
  #93
odin1981
Registered User
 
odin1981's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: Canton Mi
Country: United States
Posts: 1,383
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxscore View Post
I think you're talking about a different variable of Crosby's (and Forsberg's) PPG points. You are referring to Forsberg's PPG being prorated over a "healthy" season. The other poster is referring to Crosby's eventual PPG lowering as he hits 32 and older and his game regresses. That's two different things.

When Lindros was 6 years into the league or so, his PPG were in the top 5-8 all-time range. But as he aged and his game began to fade as he bounced from NY to Toronto to Dallas, etc. his PPG dropped on the list.
+1 Thank you greatly for this I may have not adequately put my argument into proper context but you translated it very well mate.

odin1981 is offline  
Old
05-17-2014, 05:16 AM
  #94
daver
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Country: Norfolk Island
Posts: 3,343
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cruor View Post
The whole PPG argument is a bit twilight zone, I remember a few years back when Foppa was being touted as great due to his ppg. The immediate answer from his detractors was that his numbers would drop significantly if he had to play a full injury free schedule.

But for Crosby it apparently cements his place as top three with Mario and Gretz.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxscore View Post
I think you're talking about a different variable of Crosby's (and Forsberg's) PPG points. You are referring to Forsberg's PPG being prorated over a "healthy" season. The other poster is referring to Crosby's eventual PPG lowering as he hits 32 and older and his game regresses. That's two different things.

When Lindros was 6 years into the league or so, his PPG were in the top 5-8 all-time range. But as he aged and his game began to fade as he bounced from NY to Toronto to Dallas, etc. his PPG dropped on the list.
His career PPG was brought up to indicate that statistically he is the best player in the world right now which another poster questioned. Whether it regresses as he ages does not change his current standing as having the highest active PPG.

daver is online now  
Old
05-17-2014, 05:49 AM
  #95
begbeee
Registered User
 
begbeee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Slovakia
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 3,980
vCash: 500
Crosby is in a sense of a word more like disrespected than hated.
I think most of the people don't care about him rather than hate him - and of course they don't pay respect to him because of his actions.

In this sense I agree with OP: I don't remember anyone like him (in his performance tier). Gretzky, Lemieux or Jagr were hated, oh man, everyone has his enemies. But they were respected. Crosby is not.

begbeee is offline  
Old
05-17-2014, 10:45 AM
  #96
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 18,374
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxscore View Post
Big Phil this is a great post. I think this thread is now developing some very interesting conversation. I guess my response to you would be, "yes and no" and here's why:

I honestly don't think fans like you, me, or many on this forum need to be "sold to" as hockey fans. We've lived through Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, etc. and realize how much of a treat those years were as hockey fans. But we've also lived through the late-90s to lockout years where the league had many stars like Sakic, Yzerman, Jagr, Bure, Lindros, Forsberg, Naslund, Thornton, etc. but not ONE main "immortal" and hockey was still entertaining.

But, I think the NHL saw the opportunity to create a "face" to their league and decided Crosby was going to be THE player they mass market. The social media boom and National TV growth in the States, including a 24 hour NHL Network, convinced them that the "average fan" needed a "Wayne Gretzky" or "Mario Lemieux" to latch onto.

The NHL stole a page right from the NBA playbook and it's not surprising considering Bettman's history and tutelage under the NBA umbrella. The NBA is the biggest fabricated league in professional sports by far. They've always been about "sizzle" and "fluff" since the days of Michael Jordan. They turned into a freak show of slam dunks, drama, heroes & villains and story lines. There's in-depth reports, and well-detailed stories on how the NBA has covered up corruption, conspiracy and even went as far to protect Michael Jordan's image because they feared the repercussions of latching their entire brand to his back... and if he went down, they'd go down with him.

The NHL saw the opportunity to follow suit and they jumped right in with both feet. The "glow puck," the "shootout"... all to help "sell" a product that the league didn't feel it could sell without gimmickry. Part of that plan was to market this new "face" every opportunity it could, and they did.

Here's the problem with that. Instead of stealing from the NBA playbook, the NHL should have taken a page from the NFL's playbook (perhaps the greatest run pro league in sports history). They don't market "one player." They market A BUNCH of players. They market their league. They market match-ups. They don't latch onto a single player as if the league couldn't exist without them. They market Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Adrian Peterson, Megatron, Aaron Rodgers, RG III, LeSean McCoy and Andrew Luck all equally. They market their teams and their fans (the Seahawks 12th man as an example). The make THE GAME an "event" and they wouldn't turn every Pens HNIC match-up into the "Sidney Crosby Show" like the NHL does... over and over and over and over again.

The way the NHL over-saturates their messaging with Crosby is like a brand running the SAME TV commercial multiple times every day. The message breaks through and becomes top-of-mind but it eventually becomes overbearing, annoying and offensive. The NHL has crossed that threshold 5 times over with "Sid the Kid." Where's all the publicity and love for Malkin? Stamkos? Ovechkin? Kane? Doughty? Karlsson? Lundqvist? Price? Subban? Toews? Kopitar? These guys get no marketing burn on the National stage. And, quite frankly, it's not even fair to Crosby. I'm sure he wouldn't mind being out from under the lamp for a little bit.
Fair points Boxscore, and yes I agree the NBA style of marketing isn't fool proof. They had too much luck with Jordan and because everything was hinging on him they did hide a lot of things he did. I'm not sure if people even knew the type of person - or husband - Jordan was back in the day that it would have mattered but I think the NBA thinks it would have. Either way, a lot of what made the NBA was riding on Jordan's image.

So now the NHL has Crosby in the same boat and they shouldn't even though Crosby seems like a much better person in general than Jordan did. I mean, the Hawks could win their 2nd Cup in a row and their 3rd in 5 years. This is what the NHL's story should be about right now - a potential dynasty. Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabrook, Hossa, Crawford, etc. That should be the envy of the NHL should the Hawks win again. The promotion should be a melting pot of great storylines in the NHL. We can't always depend on Habs/Bruins rivalries each year for two weeks, it may not happen.

Even during the Olympics there was an obsession about how we could get Crosby going. We were winning for crying out loud! Let it go. How about Drew Doughty's play? Anyways, in conclusion I agree with you, the NFL never runs out of things to talk about.

Big Phil is offline  
Old
05-17-2014, 12:19 PM
  #97
Boxscore
pre-Dead Puck Era
 
Boxscore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: 1985-94
Posts: 4,462
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by begbeee View Post
Crosby is in a sense of a word more like disrespected than hated.
I think most of the people don't care about him rather than hate him - and of course they don't pay respect to him because of his actions.

In this sense I agree with OP: I don't remember anyone like him (in his performance tier). Gretzky, Lemieux or Jagr were hated, oh man, everyone has his enemies. But they were respected. Crosby is not.
This is also a true point. Not only Crosby's actions, but the sense of entitlement and overselling.

Gretzky had to PROVE himself and it took multiple years to do so, despite tearing up the NHL.

Lemieux lived in Gretzky's shadow early and was considered aloof and had his detractors. It wasn't until the 87 Canada Cup where Mario started to get his just due.

Jagr lived in Mario's shadow and couldn't shake the "Mario Jr" moniker until he was dominating the league.

Messier, Forsberg, Sakic, Yzerman, etc. all had to fight for their recognition and had to earn it through accomplishments.

Lindros was the closest thing to Crosby where he was labelled "The Next One" before he even stepped foot into the NHL. Then he was vilified for the way he treated the OHL and the Nordiques. He was a REAL "villain" in the NHL.

Then Crosby appears, on the heels of the NHL lockout. The league came out with guns loaded with the whole "New NHL" gimmick... screaming from the rooftops that the game "has never been better" and here is this hockey prodigy "Sid the Kid" who is the next big hockey superstar. The league, the media, the fans ate it up and NEVER let it go. Even when Ovechkin or Malkin were outplaying Crosby, the NHL was still forcing him down our throats. Even as other stars and great teams emerged, the NHL was still forcing him down our throats.

I think the die-hard Crosby fans feel he can do no wrong, no matter what. They think anyone who criticizes him is "jealous" and is unfairly picking on him, which of course is moronic. As begbee said, Crosby is not hated, he's disrespected because of his actions and the way the league overselling him. When he earns the praise, he deserves to get it (and there were definitely times he deserved all the praise he received). But he continually gets showered with praise even when he doesn't earn it. And what makes it worse is that OTHER PLAYERS don't get their just due because the NHL and media doesn't seem to want to "lose focus" on praising their "face" in Crosby.


Last edited by Boxscore: 05-17-2014 at 12:29 PM.
Boxscore is offline  
Old
05-17-2014, 04:38 PM
  #98
LeBlondeDemon10
Stack Shot Billy
 
LeBlondeDemon10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,725
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxscore View Post
This is also a true point. Not only Crosby's actions, but the sense of entitlement and overselling.

Gretzky had to PROVE himself and it took multiple years to do so, despite tearing up the NHL.

Lemieux lived in Gretzky's shadow early and was considered aloof and had his detractors. It wasn't until the 87 Canada Cup where Mario started to get his just due.

Jagr lived in Mario's shadow and couldn't shake the "Mario Jr" moniker until he was dominating the league.

Messier, Forsberg, Sakic, Yzerman, etc. all had to fight for their recognition and had to earn it through accomplishments.

Lindros was the closest thing to Crosby where he was labelled "The Next One" before he even stepped foot into the NHL. Then he was vilified for the way he treated the OHL and the Nordiques. He was a REAL "villain" in the NHL.

Then Crosby appears, on the heels of the NHL lockout. The league came out with guns loaded with the whole "New NHL" gimmick... screaming from the rooftops that the game "has never been better" and here is this hockey prodigy "Sid the Kid" who is the next big hockey superstar. The league, the media, the fans ate it up and NEVER let it go. Even when Ovechkin or Malkin were outplaying Crosby, the NHL was still forcing him down our throats. Even as other stars and great teams emerged, the NHL was still forcing him down our throats.

I think the die-hard Crosby fans feel he can do no wrong, no matter what. They think anyone who criticizes him is "jealous" and is unfairly picking on him, which of course is moronic. As begbee said, Crosby is not hated, he's disrespected because of his actions and the way the league overselling him. When he earns the praise, he deserves to get it (and there were definitely times he deserved all the praise he received). But he continually gets showered with praise even when he doesn't earn it. And what makes it worse is that OTHER PLAYERS don't get their just due because the NHL and media doesn't seem to want to "lose focus" on praising their "face" in Crosby.
Good post. In another thread I questioned whether Crosby was still the best player in the game today. Maybe by default, but I really think its up for grabs at this point. Sure he won the Art Ross, but was average at the Oly's and playoffs. His reign of the torch is not only unfair to those players that are standing out, but unfair to him. He has had nothing but huge expectations heaped upon him since before he got to the NHL. Not too many players have had to play with this kind of pressure. Lafleur was passed the torch after Beliveau retired. Lindros was expected to be the "next one." But if you look at the other generational talents in the last 40 years, many of them had less constrictive circumstances to flourish. Lemieux went to Pittsburgh which was not really on the NHL radar like it is now. Gretzky wasn't really supposed to dominate like he did and many expected he wouldn't be able to handle the physicality of the NHL. Jagr is European so expectations were less and I think developing under Lemieux actually helped him. It took the spotlight away from him to do his thing. Crosby has had to follow in both of their giant footsteps. Personally, I think he is mentally exhausted from the huge expectations, 2 SC runs and 2 Oly's. Burned out.

LeBlondeDemon10 is offline  
Old
05-17-2014, 04:59 PM
  #99
canuck2010
Registered User
 
canuck2010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 764
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Messier View Post
With all of the talk about Crosby's cheapshots and overall villainy in this postseason thus far, I wanted to compare how he's viewed in comparison to other players that were considered the best of their generation. Richard, Howe, Orr, Gretzky, Lemieux, Jagr, all seemed to be viewed with reverence and respect by other fan bases leaguewide. I would love to get a more experienced perspective by those who have watched the game for decades longer than I have. In general, Crosby is not hated around the league for his skill and talent, but for his on-ice antics and general behavior. We all remember Lemieux getting a standing ovation in Philadelphia twice, in 93 when he returned from cancer treatments and 97 when he retired for the first time. I can't imagine Crosby getting such treatment when he retires. I wanted to get other views on this anomaly.
I don't like or dislike Crosby but you need to understand that his play in these playoffs is directly related to the lack of protection his team mates have offered him. Crosby is their meal ticket and they did a poor job of ensuring that he had time and space and wasn't cross checked or hacked to death. Hence the stick work etc. from Crosby. Nothing unusual in that.

canuck2010 is offline  
Old
05-17-2014, 05:07 PM
  #100
canuck2010
Registered User
 
canuck2010's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 764
vCash: 500
Gretzky just never seemed to get pandered to as much. He thrived in every situation, with any type of linemate and he never stopped producing.


Whoa I can't you get away with that. Gretzky was the biggest whiner going. He played in a different era i.e. the third man in penalty has stripped protection from the best players in the league. He didn't need top do what Crosby has to do to protect himself because of two gentlemen named Semenko and McSorley.

Oh and he also played with Kurri, Messier, Coffey, Anderson and Fuhr.

canuck2010 is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:50 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.