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Kypreos: TOR shopping Phaneuf to the West - Part II

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Old
05-13-2014, 08:09 AM
  #76
Phatic
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Originally Posted by Spazmatic Dan View Post
Sorry my friend, but those aren't realistic. I think we need to dial back those expectations a bit.
Can't trust a post that finds nothing interesting with the sharks.

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05-13-2014, 08:09 AM
  #77
madmike77
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Not a single one of those is realistic.

The Leafs simply cannot trade Phaneuf for a package built around futures. They need an immediate impact player in return.
I don't know. Even when the Leafs were flying high, pretty much every stat available said they were a bad team and it turned out the stats were right.

I don't think the Leafs are a win-now team. Phaneuf is part of the problem, but he's far from the only one. I don't think a mini-rebuild should be out of the question.

Some of the trade proposals here are crazy. I don't think there's any way Phaneuf returns a high first round pick. Nor is he going to net a ROR type.

How many teams really need a 30-year-old defenceman with a huge, long-term contract? He's still a solid player, but most contending teams either don't need him or wouldn't be able to fit him under the cap.

And rebuilding teams aren't really in the market for an older defenceman on a long-term deal.

In the end I don't see him going anywhere.

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Old
05-13-2014, 08:10 AM
  #78
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you don't know much about rielly because he's better than trouba.
no he's not.. I would take Trouba on my team way before Rielly

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05-13-2014, 08:10 AM
  #79
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Originally Posted by LickTheEnvelope View Post
You honestly can't name 15 d-men you'd take over Phanuef?

- Weber
- Kieth
- Chara
- Subban
- Seabrook
- OEL
- Pietrangelo
- Bouwmeester
- Hamhuis
- Karlsson
- Doughty
- Giordano
- Kronwall
- Suter
- McDonagh
- Josi
- Hedman
- Fowler
- Enstrom

... off the top of my head...
I definitely think Phaneuf is better than a couple on this list (namely Fowler, Enstrom, etc.). None the less, Phaneuf is not a top 15 D man in the league. He will probably fall between 20 and 30 (probably near the latter half). People have to consider who plays with Phaneuf and who Phaneuf plays against. A Trouba vs. Phaneuf comparison is insane. Phaneuf's stats would be much better if he was playing sheltered minutes.

Leafs may package Phaneuf with Lupul or Kadri to pull back a key piece. Or package him with more to dump that horrendous contract (Clarkson)...but that may be just dreaming haha

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05-13-2014, 08:10 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Not a single one of those is realistic.

The Leafs simply cannot trade Phaneuf for a package built around futures. They need an immediate impact player in return.
Is there a reason the Leafs couldn't turn these young assets into a proven talent via trade with another team?

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05-13-2014, 08:12 AM
  #81
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Maybe direct swap with LAK (Richards) and TOR eat salary to meet Richards cap at the moment?

(so basically there would be no change regarding cap for TOR and LAK, just players would be swaped)

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05-13-2014, 08:14 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
Both this, and the suggestion of Trouba or Scheifele would be ridiculously bad for Winnipeg. Just awful.

How about Buff for JVR? Or Buff for Rielly + 3rd + 4th? Sound great to leaf fans?
You can think this sounds bad all you want but it's fair. Buff for JVR is not a comparable. I would expect pétan instead of picks.

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05-13-2014, 08:17 AM
  #83
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The reality is Phaneuf is worthless, he is a 4-5 million dollar player making 7 million.. Thanks No-Nuts, I appreciate you screwing the league over. Anyways, if we trade Phaneuf + 2nd (conditional) and retain 1m to Columbus for Jack Johnson

Phaneuf < Johnson
Age difference: Johnson is 27 while Phaneuf is 29. The money gap is also an issue. but the 2nd takes care of the small age gap and the retention of salary should even it out a bit more. Columbus is a smaller market with less pressure on players and it might help Phaneuf play a little better.

**Conditions on the pick,
If Johnson has a 45+ point season it becomes a 1st.

(I hate phaneuf.)


Last edited by SoupNazi: 05-13-2014 at 08:21 AM. Reason: QDP
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05-13-2014, 08:23 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by TheyCallMeKato View Post

The reality is Phaneuf is worthless, he is a 4-5 million dollar player making 7 million.. Thanks No-Nuts, I appreciate you screwing the league over. Anyways, if we trade Phaneuf + 2nd (conditional) and retain 1m to Columbus for Jack Johnson

Phaneuf < Johnson
Age difference: Johnson is 27 while Phaneuf is 29. The money gap is also an issue. but the 2nd takes care of the small age gap and the retention of salary should even it out a bit more. Columbus is a smaller market with less pressure on players and it might help Phaneuf play a little better.

**Conditions on the pick,
If Johnson has a 45+ point season it becomes a 1st.

(I hate phaneuf.)
I think we've established dion is a 6mil defender already. And why on earth would Columbus bother?


Last edited by SoupNazi: 05-13-2014 at 08:26 AM. Reason: QEP
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05-13-2014, 08:26 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by likid View Post
Maybe direct swap with LAK (Richards) and TOR eat salary to meet Richards cap at the moment?

(so basically there would be no change regarding cap for TOR and LAK, just players would be swaped)
That would be something the Leafs would definitely consider retaining salary for I think.

But I think the deal could be expanded a bit so that salaries wouldn't have to be retained as much.

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05-13-2014, 08:28 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Not a single one of those is realistic.

The Leafs simply cannot trade Phaneuf for a package built around futures. They need an immediate impact player in return.
When players like Phaneuf are traded, futures is typically the return. Moving him for a similar impact player would be nearly impossible.

If he is moved, a package deal of much lesser impact players (in the now) is a far more likely return.

Quote:
Originally Posted by likid View Post
Maybe direct swap with LAK (Richards) and TOR eat salary to meet Richards cap at the moment?

(so basically there would be no change regarding cap for TOR and LAK, just players would be swaped)
While Toronto could use a player like Richards, that's a fair amount of cap to eat to get a struggling player like that.

Not sure I'd like Richards at $7 mil.

I would think with that much cap being eaten, Phaneuf would carry more value. I would imagine eating cap in and of itself would invoke reluctance on the Leafs part.

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05-13-2014, 08:28 AM
  #87
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I think we've established dion is a 6mil defender already. And why on earth would Columbus bother? Let's avoid the help face in future posts shall we? Not really fair to be poking fun at other fans.
Fair enough. But I'm not sure who said he's a 6mil defence. He is not a top two and I can see why any team would want a 3 or 4 dman for 6 mil. Phaneuf eats minute, yes, but anyone can eat minutes if they're in shape, but not everyone can play effectively at 24+ minutes a game. And Phaneuf is one of them, he needs to play less to be effective, and in Toronto he has to eat minutes. the unfortunate truth is not only is he not worth 6mil he's barely worth 5.

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05-13-2014, 08:29 AM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
Both this, and the suggestion of Trouba or Scheifele would be ridiculously bad for Winnipeg. Just awful.

How about Buff for JVR? Or Buff for Rielly + 3rd + 4th? Sound great to leaf fans?
The only thing awful are your comparisons.

Phaneuf >> Buff

JVR/Rielly >>> Schiefele

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05-13-2014, 08:30 AM
  #89
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Says who? Who's to say after the 3rd straight collapse, that leafs mgmt thinks it's time to sell some of these players who have been around for the collapses and plan for the future? I'm not saying you're wrong, I just haven't seen any reports that points to what direction the leafs execs are wanting this team to go.
Because there's absolutely no patience or tolerance for a losing culture to be perpetuated in Toronto. Look at the Raptors, or TFC. For better or worse, the Leafs have committed themselves to icing a winning team, and they're in absolutely no poistion to lose their best defenceman and have any expectation of doign that.

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Shanahan keeping Randy around surely suggests that, but trading Phaneuf for an impact player whilst changing the culture of the Toronto Maple Leafs is easier said than done.
Of course, that's why GM's are paid millions to figure out how to do that.

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Originally Posted by madmike77 View Post
I don't know. Even when the Leafs were flying high, pretty much every stat available said they were a bad team and it turned out the stats were right.

I don't think the Leafs are a win-now team. Phaneuf is part of the problem, but he's far from the only one. I don't think a mini-rebuild should be out of the question.

Some of the trade proposals here are crazy. I don't think there's any way Phaneuf returns a high first round pick. Nor is he going to net a ROR type.

How many teams really need a 30-year-old defenceman with a huge, long-term contract? He's still a solid player, but most contending teams either don't need him or wouldn't be able to fit him under the cap.

And rebuilding teams aren't really in the market for an older defenceman on a long-term deal.

In the end I don't see him going anywhere.
The Leafs are absolutely a win-now team. They just signed Phaneuf & Kessel to massive UFA deals, and have been desparate to eradicate the culture of losing that has infected them for so long.

As for how many teams need Phaneuf? Well, nobody technically "needs" anyone that doesn't help them reach the cap floor / roster minimum. Teams will want Phaneuf, because he's by far the best defenceman rumoured to be available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Four1 Lead View Post
Is there a reason the Leafs couldn't turn these young assets into a proven talent via trade with another team?
If you have a 3-way trade idea, I'd love to hear it. Otherwise, there's no reason to assume the Leafs would be able to do so.

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05-13-2014, 08:31 AM
  #90
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People will call you nuts, but the truth is, this IS Phaneuf's value.

HF posters will be surprised if Dion is moved, surely. Mob mentality, nobody can think for themselves nowadays.
If that was his value then why didn't he return that much the first time he was traded??? I mean it's not like he has done ANYTHING to actually increase his value. If teams thought he was worth that much then they would have offered more than the leafs did when they first acquired him.

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05-13-2014, 08:35 AM
  #91
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no he's not.. I would take Trouba on my team way before Rielly
We'll see how the cookie crumbles over the years, but for now Trouba is certainly the more valuable player.

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05-13-2014, 08:36 AM
  #92
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Yes we all know there were rumours that the Leafs are maybe shopping Phaneuf, so here is a quick and dirty proposal.

Toronto trades Phaneuf and Reimer to Vancouver

Vancouver trades Bieksa, Burrows and a 3rd round pick

Why Toronto does it....Basically because they feel they need a culture change, and most Toronto fans and media are too slow witted to realize that Phaneuf is their best Defenceman and has been since he arrived. But because he has a 7m cap hit, even though it isn't their money, they feel he is grossly overpaid. And because he is the captain he should fight all challengers, score 20 goals, sell popcorn between periods, and shrink the provincial deficit. Since he doesn't do those things, they feel he should be ripped of the C, and sent on his Merry way.

Why Vancouver does it....well their current core's best years are well behind them. While Bieksa is a good Dman, and a little cheaper than Phaneuf, the Nucks get a little younger in this deal and get out from the contract of Burrrows at 4.5m. Yes Burrows can still turn it around, but at age 32 and after his lackluster 13-14 season, I thinks the Canucks would be happy to package the two for Phaneuf. And why Reimer? Well Eddie Lack is unproven and Markstrom isn't a very good NHL player. Yes he is still 24, but he has never played well against NHL shooters (and he has been given many chances). Reimer provides some competition for Lack and gives them a more stable back end position to build from. And he is still pretty cheap and a western boy.
Ummm no and no.

Watched the Dion for years in Calgary as a Canuck fan and in his first two years I was dreading Vancouver facing him for the next dozen years. Then a funny thing happened to the Dion, he stopped being effective. By the end of his tenure on the Flames he was a liability when he was on the ice and would get beaten like a rented mule a few times a game. I was sad to see him go when he was shipped to TO.

Personally I wouldn't trade Bieksa straight up for Dion at this point in time as KB at 4.6mil a year is a whole lot better than Dion at 7.

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05-13-2014, 08:37 AM
  #93
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Fair enough. But I'm not sure who said he's a 6mil defence. He is not a top two and I can see why any team would want a 3 or 4 dman for 6 mil. Phaneuf eats minute, yes, but anyone can eat minutes if they're in shape, but not everyone can play effectively at 24+ minutes a game. And Phaneuf is one of them, he needs to play less to be effective, and in Toronto he has to eat minutes. the unfortunate truth is not only is he not worth 6mil he's barely worth 5.
I once thought he'd be better playing fewer minutes as well. Then I looked at his numbers and found the opposite is true. I'm not saying he's a 1A Dman but he's definitely a solid 1B or #2. Calling him anything less is being unfair. The 6mil came from thread 1. Most fan bases wanted roughly 1mil retained.

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05-13-2014, 08:41 AM
  #94
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Not a single one of those is realistic.

The Leafs simply cannot trade Phaneuf for a package built around futures. They need an immediate impact player in return.
McDavid is the impact the Leafs will be gunning for if they trade Phaneuf

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05-13-2014, 08:43 AM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Phatic View Post
You can think this sounds bad all you want but it's fair. Buff for JVR is not a comparable. I would expect pétan instead of picks.
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Originally Posted by Avec Fromage View Post
The only thing awful are your comparisons.

Phaneuf >> Buff

JVR/Rielly >>> Schiefele
Keep reaching for the stars!

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05-13-2014, 08:44 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Not a single one of those is realistic.

The Leafs simply cannot trade Phaneuf for a package built around futures. They need an immediate impact player in return.
Just like Gillis insisted on a hockey trade when attempting to trade Luongo.

If you're trying to get rid of a huge contract, you're the beggar. Not the chooser.

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05-13-2014, 08:47 AM
  #97
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Maybe direct swap with LAK (Richards) and TOR eat salary to meet Richards cap at the moment?

(so basically there would be no change regarding cap for TOR and LAK, just players would be swaped)
the world is flat, and Richards fell off the edge. ...stop living in the past, Richards is a ghost of his former self, and not worth Dion in any way.

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05-13-2014, 08:48 AM
  #98
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Just like Gillis insisted on a hockey trade when attempting to trade Luongo.

If you're trying to get rid of a huge contract, you're the beggar. Not the chooser.
Too bad Gillis didn't understand this and it cost him his job .

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05-13-2014, 08:50 AM
  #99
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no he's not.. I would take Trouba on my team way before Rielly
Meh... He definitely had a better rookie year than Rielly but it's too early in their careers to say that for certain.

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05-13-2014, 08:52 AM
  #100
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I think we've established dion is a 6mil defender already. And why on earth would Columbus bother?
oh please, if DP made it to UFA status he would have gotten more $$ than his contract right now.
worth has little to do with it, when some teams have a hard time getting players to want to play there they overpay, or if 2 same division teams are competing for the same player one will always break the bank.

Leafs may take a lesser deal and not retain a penny, or, he gets offered to 2 teams in direct competition.

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