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Hall of Fame Snubs: Defensemen Edition

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Old
05-14-2014, 11:01 PM
  #26
TheDevilMadeMe
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The biggest snubs are JC Tremblay and Carl Brewer and they were snubbed for similar reasons - left the NHL for the WHA for money (Tremblay) or for Europe after feuding with coach (Brewer).

Mark Howe was previously the biggest snub (picked the WHA over NHL to start his career), and the fact that the Committee finally got over their grudge for him makes me hope that at least Tremblay has a chance.

Doug Wilson is the best of the modern guys who has been snubbed IMO. I wouldn't consider Blake a snub yet, as he's only been passed over once so far.

Flash Hollett? Meh. Seems pretty Housley-like to me. Despite his stats, he was just a second team All Star once, then managed a first team when most of the best players were off to war. I don't really care what Adams said, that doesn't seem like the resume of a HHOFer to me.

To me, Zubov is like Desjardens. Guys who would be in if standards for defensemen were as low a they are for forwards, but not really guys who meet the established standard for defensemen.

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05-14-2014, 11:07 PM
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeBlondeDemon10 View Post
Housley was well past his prime by 96 wasn't he?

I'd vote for Sergei Zubov. Great passer and instrumental on 2 SC teams.
68 points in 95-96. A little below his peak, but still very productive. But man did Housley suck in his own zone. I'm a little biase against him because of what a sieve he was during his short stint in NJ (even playing for Jacques Lemaire), but I just can't see him ever being a top 4 defenseman for a contender ever.

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05-14-2014, 11:33 PM
  #28
tjcurrie
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
On some points you are right. The media fell in love with Niedermayer and the media will push who they want. Fortunately, some of us are smart enough to know that Nieds is nowhere near a top 10 d-man. Whoever even dreamed up the idea that he should even be in the conversation with Bourque is insane. Zubov as well gets a little underrated at times. Now, because of this there is a smaller gap between Nieds and Zubov than people would believe, but in my opinion there still is a big enough gap where Niedermayer comfortably gets into the HHOF while Zubov is still on the outside looking in and perhaps may not in his lifetime.

Zubov has this stat line for his highest Norris finishes: 3, 4, 8, 8, 9, 9, 9, 12, 13, 13
Niedermayer is as follows: 1, 2, 2, 5, 9, 10, 12, 13

I guess the issue is, how can Zubov offset the fact that he was only a top-5 defenseman twice? Being 8th and 9th is nice, but it should be in the background of your resume not something you are using to build a HHOF case. He does have the two Cups that he played brilliantly in. It would help if he was the #1 guy and not behind Leetch (1994) or Hatcher (1999). Being a 2nd team all-star once doesn't help a whole lot either, you want to see more of that. On the other hand there is certainly a case for him but I am afraid Niedermayer just had a higher ceiling and maintained that for longer, and to be quite honest here, I have always been a vocal critic about how Niedermayer didn't sustain his greatness for as long as his other HHOF peers (Stevens, MacInnis, Lidstrom, Pronger even Blake) but even so I can see some separation from him and Zubov.

I was just looking at Zubov and personally I can't remember why he wasn't a prominent figure with Russian Olympic teams. He played in the 1996 World Cup and that was it. Nothing for 1998, 2002 or 2006 Olympics. I know a lot of Russians just didn't play for the sake of it (Mogilny) but I am wondering the reasons with him, just can't remember them. Something like that might add a bit to his resume if he had been involved more.
The voting for All-Star Teams and trophies just go right along with the bias though. Had that bias not been there, voting would likely look different, and he very well could be in - if not yet then soon.

I know I looked it all up as this is probably about the 6th or 7th Zubov discussion I've been involved in on here. There certainly were seasons where he was snubbed, and certainly seasons where his numbers get severely overlooked because of missing a few games - so he drops down the point leaders list and nobody pays him any attention. I know you naturally lose votes the less you play, but just pure fanfare he gets overlooked. He has some seasons where his ppg would surprise you.

He was certainly sharper offensively than Niedermayer, certainly as much of a part of his team as Niedermayer, and I'd be willing to admit not naturally as good defensively though I think that aspect of his game gets underrated and overblown around here. He was decent defensively, and became excellent.

I dont agree with the Desjardins comparison by some either. Respect to Desjardins, but Zubov was far more lethal. Nearly 200 more points in 75 less games during reg season. Playoffs Zubov played 4 less games (164 to 168) and has 37 more points (117 to 80). Combined 79 less games and 233 more points. Pretty clear cut.

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05-14-2014, 11:36 PM
  #29
vadim sharifijanov
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^ would you accept that zubov and doug wilson are probably in the same ballpark?

because i'd say that nieds, while certainly overrated, is clearly above wilson's ballpark.

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05-14-2014, 11:38 PM
  #30
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
^ would you accept that zubov and doug wilson are probably in the same ballpark?

because i'd say that nieds, while certainly overrated, is clearly above wilson's ballpark.
When was Zubov ever the best defenseman in the league?

As for Zubov and Desjardins, IMO Desjardins was quite a bit better defensively over the course of his career. His All-Stat record is actually a little better than Zubov's, despite being much less flashy.

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05-14-2014, 11:45 PM
  #31
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When was Zubov ever the best defenseman in the league?
you have to give up a little to get a little, man.

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05-15-2014, 12:34 AM
  #32
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I don't really care if Zubov was never the best defenseman in the league to be honest. He was just underrated and does not get the respect he deserves.

I find it easier to compare him to Niedermayer since they went head to head and their careers overlapped almost identically. I wouldnt place either much ahead of Wilson.

Difficult for me to compare though. The most I recall of Wilson is his booming shot from the point vs my North Stars in the playoffs early 90s. I hated seeing him wind up.

Maybe I'm wrong here, but I feel like I'm not unrealistic. I think when making comparisons to players from different eras, all you can truly expect it to be realistic and in the ballpark. Unless of course there is truly a clear cut large gap. I dont really see one here. Which is why I dislike the fact that Niedermayer was carried in to the HOF and Zubov likely never gets in. That is extremely polarizing, while their abilities and their numbers were anything but. They were extremely close, regardless of who you prefer. It's simply popularity that is the biggest difference between the two. And like I said, easier for me to compare Zubov and Niedermayer so I feel very confident in my assessment.


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05-15-2014, 02:33 AM
  #33
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Gary Suter probably deserves serious consideration

I'd argue finishing in the top 15 all-time in scoring among D-men is more impressive than what Joe Mullen or Joe Nieuwendyk accomplished - Conn Smythe notwithstanding

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05-15-2014, 09:15 AM
  #34
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I actually expected something on the Top-3 defensemen not in the Hall, that is, Tremblay, Brewer and Thomson (not counting Blake and Zubov yet, due to their recent retirement).

On second thought, I'm not quite sure between Wilson and Thomson, but whatever.
I had forgotten about Brewer, maybe guessing he was already in, either way he was better than JC IMO but his being out of the NHL in his prime probably hurts his case a bit.

I don't think that Thomson has a claim over basically anyone else mentioned in the thread so far, would be interested to hear any arguments to the contrary.

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05-15-2014, 01:27 PM
  #35
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Gary Suter probably deserves serious consideration

I'd argue finishing in the top 15 all-time in scoring among D-men is more impressive than what Joe Mullen or Joe Nieuwendyk accomplished - Conn Smythe notwithstanding
Gary Suter is another one of those who racked up a lot of points in a high scoring era but has a pretty weak Norris record:

87-88: 3rd
88-89: 7th
92-93: 8th

Frankly, I think it would be a joke if either Suter or Housley got in before Zubov or Desjardins just because they were high scoring defensemen in a high scoring era. And like I said, I think Zubov and Desjardins tend to fall short of the standard set for defensemen.

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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I had forgotten about Brewer, maybe guessing he was already in, either way he was better than JC IMO but his being out of the NHL in his prime probably hurts his case a bit.

I don't think that Thomson has a claim over basically anyone else mentioned in the thread so far, would be interested to hear any arguments to the contrary.
Here's Jimmy Thomson's All-Star record:

47-48: 5th
48-49: 6th
49-50: 6th
50-51: 3rd
51-52: 4th
53-54: 6th
56-57: 12th

Add to that the fact that he was the #1 defenseman on a dynasty, and there is certainly an argument for him to be in the HHOF, though I can't see him there before Tremblay or Brewer. Thomson was highly involved in an abortive attempt to form a Player's Union, and I've seen speculation that's why he was kept out the first time.

No idea why the Veteran's Committee inducted generally low scoring power forward Harry Watson over Jimmy Thomson when they went back to induct another member of the 40s dynasty.

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05-15-2014, 03:48 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by tjcurrie View Post
The voting for All-Star Teams and trophies just go right along with the bias though. Had that bias not been there, voting would likely look different, and he very well could be in - if not yet then soon.

I know I looked it all up as this is probably about the 6th or 7th Zubov discussion I've been involved in on here. There certainly were seasons where he was snubbed, and certainly seasons where his numbers get severely overlooked because of missing a few games - so he drops down the point leaders list and nobody pays him any attention. I know you naturally lose votes the less you play, but just pure fanfare he gets overlooked. He has some seasons where his ppg would surprise you.

He was certainly sharper offensively than Niedermayer, certainly as much of a part of his team as Niedermayer, and I'd be willing to admit not naturally as good defensively though I think that aspect of his game gets underrated and overblown around here. He was decent defensively, and became excellent.

I dont agree with the Desjardins comparison by some either. Respect to Desjardins, but Zubov was far more lethal. Nearly 200 more points in 75 less games during reg season. Playoffs Zubov played 4 less games (164 to 168) and has 37 more points (117 to 80). Combined 79 less games and 233 more points. Pretty clear cut.
I don't see what bias you're trying to come up with here. Zubov was a high scoring defenseman on perpetually elite teams, and while you could argue whether he should have been 7th instead of 9th or some business like that, the two times his offense spiked he did very well in the Norris/All-Star voting and otherwise I don't see any year where he had much of a case.

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05-15-2014, 04:36 PM
  #37
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Zubov is a case of people taking how great he was in 2005-06 and then projecting it back over his whole career.

He was a defensive trainwreck for his first several seasons, and then once going to Dallas showed consistent improvement in that regard, but at the expense of his offensive production. Was never considered a top-5 defender (or even top-10, really) through this period.

He put it together for one brilliant season in 2005-06, which was one of the best years ever by a player not to win the Norris, then got old and hurt.

I think Niedermayer is horribly over-rated but he was elite for much longer, and was a key part of more successful teams.

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05-15-2014, 04:59 PM
  #38
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The voting for All-Star Teams and trophies just go right along with the bias though. Had that bias not been there, voting would likely look different, and he very well could be in - if not yet then soon.

I know I looked it all up as this is probably about the 6th or 7th Zubov discussion I've been involved in on here. There certainly were seasons where he was snubbed, and certainly seasons where his numbers get severely overlooked because of missing a few games - so he drops down the point leaders list and nobody pays him any attention. I know you naturally lose votes the less you play, but just pure fanfare he gets overlooked. He has some seasons where his ppg would surprise you.

He was certainly sharper offensively than Niedermayer, certainly as much of a part of his team as Niedermayer, and I'd be willing to admit not naturally as good defensively though I think that aspect of his game gets underrated and overblown around here. He was decent defensively, and became excellent.
Well I am just trying to think of his big years. 1994 for example. Great year, 89 points. However, look at the defensemen who got ranked ahead of him on the all-star teams. Bourque, Stevens, MacInnis and then his own teammate Leetch. I don't disagree with that at all. He wasn't better than either one of them.

2006 he finished behind Lidstrom and Niedermayer right? That's not bad at all. Certainly no bias against him. And the early 2000s or the whole decade itself was weaker in top end competition than the 1990s. Yet Zubov only has the one 2nd team all-star. He should do better than that. You want to see more than that and a longer string of being an elite defenseman. Comparing Niedermayer to Zubov up until 2003 and I would give you Zubov personally. But after 2003 is a different story. Niedermayer has that great run in 2003, wins the Norris in 2004, is a runner-up in 2006 and 2007 and wins the Cup and Conn Smythe in 2007. For 3-4 years this guy was the best defenseman outside of Lidstrom and at best Pronger. Zubov doesn't have a string like that.

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05-15-2014, 05:16 PM
  #39
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If Zubov gets elected to the Hall of Fame which I don't believe he should then both Housley and Blake are deserving. At this point I'm not sure what the HOF criteria is supposed to look like. Housley was so productive its unreal. Blake was a great all around dman. Zubov was as bad defensively as Housley early in his career. Three players with flaws/limitations. Three players who intrigue me more than any in sport when we talk HOF. When you think HOF do these guys immediately pop In your head as being great?
For me its very borderline. Housley needs a cup IMO. Blake and Zubov hmmmm.

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05-15-2014, 06:55 PM
  #40
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93-94 he led a 1st place/Cup Champ NYR in points and was just 2 behind Bourque for the league lead - Passed over for an AS nomination. Finished 4th in Norris voting - yet 5th in the AS voting. Basically biased voting and the points system screwed him out of an AS nomination. Gets a few more points, gets nominated for the AS Team, all of a sudden he's a better defenseman?

You can say "He wasnt better than any of the other 4" all you want, thats a matter of opinion, the fact is there are other seasons where that guy (the offensive stud) gets the nod - so why not that season? It's a matter of how I feel today as a voter. Thats what separated Zubov from an AS nod and nothing. Thats it.

94-95 - If you referred to the season finder on hockey-reference and looked up the leading scoring defensemen for this season, you wouldnt have seen Xubov. For a couple reasons. One - for some strange reason whoever made the list left him off. (Shows again how people undervalue him because he's not Mr.Popular), Two - he missed 8 games. He had 36 points in 38 games. Plays the whole season he finishes top 3 or 4 in points. Deserved of any AS nod? Guess not. He did miss.

95-96 - Did you look this season up on Hockey-Reference as well? If you did and you didnt see his name, he was left off of it again for some reason. 66 points in 64 games. Leetch and Bourque were the only other two ppg defensemen. Oh and he was a +28. Only Lidstrom +29 and Bourque +31 were better there. Again, missed some games. Fine.

96-97 - One of his worst offensively. Whether he was still one of the best defensemen in the league or not, 43 points in 78 games and finishing 15th in points doesnt get you anything.

97-98 - Finished 2nd in points behind just Lidstrom. Zubov had 57, Niedermayer had 57, and Lidstrom had 59. Except, Lidstrom played 80 games, Niedermayer played 81, and Zubov played just 73. He was first in ppg with 0.78 while Lidstrom was 0.74 and Niedermayer was 0.70. Of the top 10 point getters among defensemen, only Lidstrom, Murphy, and Numminen had better +/- stats. The Stars also finished 1st overall. YET, Zubov finished 8th in Norris voting and 9th in Norris voting.

You're gonna tell me he never got screwed over there? Give me a break. Delete your account if you think that.

98-99 - 51 points in 81 games. +9. Good year. Vital to the Stars. But deserved of any accolades? Maybe, but fine if he doesnt receive them. After all, it's been proven already that even when he clearly DOES deserve something, he doesnt get it. So why would he this season?

02-03 - 4th in scoring behind just Lidstrom, Macinnis, and Gonchar but finishes 8th in Norris voting. Not a huge deal, but still shows a snub.

05-06 - Second in scoring behind just Lidstrom. Among the top 20 scoring defensemen, only Lidstrom and Zubov had +/- ratings in double digits +21 and +20 respectively. Lidstrom named to the 1st AS Team, wins Norris. Fair. BUT, where does Zubov finish in the voting? Mr.Scott Niedermayer, 63 points and a +8 compared to Zubov's 71 points and a +20 gets the other 1st AS Team nod and finishes 2nd in Norris voting. Zubov named to the 2nd Team (I'm actually surprised!) and finishes 3rd in Norris voting (I'm actually surprised at that too).

Don't tell me that's not a snub.

From 1992-93 through 2006-07, only Lidstrom had more points. Lidstrom's ppg avg was 0.74 while Zubov's was 0.72. Of the top 10 scoring defensemen in those years, only Lidstrom (+302), Niedermayer (+185), and Macinnis (+182) had better +/- ratings than Zubov (+146)

Zubov ranks among the elite statistically over those years, and clearly had seasons where he was passed over. You may argue that even when he was statistically elite, there were guys below him who were still better. Okay. Fine. Thats your revisionist opinion. But why then does Erik Karlsson get himself a Norris? Why P.K. Subban? Why do they get voted to the 1st AS Teams? Why do the voting rules change for other players, but somehow they ALWAYS found a reason to knock Zubov down a few notches?

And saying he was "a train wreck defensively" is an absolute load of crap. That's called taking something someone once said and blowing it up in to something it's not. Does Keenan have him out on the ice for the final minute of game 7 in the SCF if he's a "train wreck" defensively? Give me a break.

Clearly he's much better than what most of you give him credit for, and yes, he DID have seasons where he was among the top few - just because a bunch of old clowns didn't vote him as such doesn't mean he wasn't. If you want to rely solely on the voting system, God help ya.

The fact that he had that career compared to his contemporaries and will likely never get in to the HOF while Niedermayer is carried in by chariot is ridiculous. The fact that Rob Blake is already getting high talk for the HOF while Zubov isnt even thought of is ridiculous. The fact that he left the game with no personal accolades except one 2nd Team AS nod is ridiculous. The fact that people here didnt even rank him in the top 60 defensemen of all-time is ridiculous. Refer to the voting all you want. I'll refer to reality.

Underrated. Undervalued. Overlooked. Sergei Zubov. Period.


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05-15-2014, 07:11 PM
  #41
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If Zubov gets elected to the Hall of Fame which I don't believe he should then both Housley and Blake are deserving. At this point I'm not sure what the HOF criteria is supposed to look like. Housley was so productive its unreal. Blake was a great all around dman. Zubov was as bad defensively as Housley early in his career. Three players with flaws/limitations. Three players who intrigue me more than any in sport when we talk HOF. When you think HOF do these guys immediately pop In your head as being great?
For me its very borderline. Housley needs a cup IMO. Blake and Zubov hmmmm.
Blake should get in regardless. Right now, he and Carl Brewer are the only 2 eligible defensemen with 4 postseason All Star nods not to be enshrined. Blake is like the anti-Niedermayer. Had an early peak, then hung around for awhile, so people forgot how good he was early on.

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05-15-2014, 07:23 PM
  #42
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Blake should get in regardless. Right now, he and Carl Brewer are the only 2 eligible defensemen with 4 postseason All Star nods not to be enshrined. Blake is like the anti-Niedermayer. Had an early peak, then hung around for awhile, so people forgot how good he was early on.
Personally I don't think Blake was ever that good, and was hopelessly over-rated by award voters in the Eastern media who only saw him a couple times/year. If he'd played in a Canadian market, his defensive play would have received the Dion Phaneuf treatment. He had all the tools to be the Great Canadian Defender on paper, and when you watched him here and there, he looked great ... but when you watched him every night, he bled goals for the majority of his career and had guys like Norstrom and Foote doing the hard yards defensively for those teams.

However, his resume on paper certainly merits enshrinement so I can't argue it too much.

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05-15-2014, 07:43 PM
  #43
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The voting for All-Star Teams and trophies just go right along with the bias though. Had that bias not been there, voting would likely look different, and he very well could be in - if not yet then soon.

I know I looked it all up as this is probably about the 6th or 7th Zubov discussion I've been involved in on here. There certainly were seasons where he was snubbed, and certainly seasons where his numbers get severely overlooked because of missing a few games - so he drops down the point leaders list and nobody pays him any attention. I know you naturally lose votes the less you play, but just pure fanfare he gets overlooked. He has some seasons where his ppg would surprise you.

He was certainly sharper offensively than Niedermayer, certainly as much of a part of his team as Niedermayer, and I'd be willing to admit not naturally as good defensively though I think that aspect of his game gets underrated and overblown around here. He was decent defensively, and became excellent.

I dont agree with the Desjardins comparison by some either. Respect to Desjardins, but Zubov was far more lethal. Nearly 200 more points in 75 less games during reg season. Playoffs Zubov played 4 less games (164 to 168) and has 37 more points (117 to 80). Combined 79 less games and 233 more points. Pretty clear cut.
i'm curious: would you say zubov was more important/more impactful than hatcher in the glory years of the stars?

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05-15-2014, 09:35 PM
  #44
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i'm curious: would you say zubov was more important/more impactful than hatcher in the glory years of the stars?
People might be surprised to know that Zubov and Hatcher produced nearly identical offensive numbers at ES between 1997 and 2003.

Hatcher was clearly the alpha dog on the blueline through that time period for Dallas, was their minute leader and took all the tough matchups, and played heaps on the PK. Zubov was brilliant on the PP, yes. But #2 defenders who do well on the PP don't get Norris votes, and not because they're being 'snubbed' or there's a conspiracy against them.

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05-15-2014, 11:01 PM
  #45
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Gary Suter is another one of those who racked up a lot of points in a high scoring era but has a pretty weak Norris record:

87-88: 3rd
88-89: 7th
92-93: 8th

Frankly, I think it would be a joke if either Suter or Housley got in before Zubov or Desjardins just because they were high scoring defensemen in a high scoring era. And like I said, I think Zubov and Desjardins tend to fall short of the standard set for defensemen.
And how many times did Dino Cicarrelli, Joe Mullen or Joe Nieuwendyk finish in the top 5 in Hart voting?

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05-15-2014, 11:04 PM
  #46
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94-95 - If you referred to the season finder on hockey-reference and looked up the leading scoring defensemen for this season, you wouldnt have seen Xubov. For a couple reasons. One - for some strange reason whoever made the list left him off. (Shows again how people undervalue him because he's not Mr.Popular), Two - he missed 8 games. He had 36 points in 38 games. Plays the whole season he finishes top 3 or 4 in points. Deserved of any AS nod? Guess not. He did miss.
Coffey wins the Norris. Coffey, Bourque, Chelios and Murphy round out the all-star nods. The old guys all have one great season once more (I guess they were all still good in 1996 too). Can't see Zubov there.

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95-96 - Did you look this season up on Hockey-Reference as well? If you did and you didnt see his name, he was left off of it again for some reason. 66 points in 64 games. Leetch and Bourque were the only other two ppg defensemen. Oh and he was a +28. Only Lidstrom +29 and Bourque +31 were better there. Again, missed some games. Fine.
Hard to penetrate this one. Chelios, Bourque, Konstantinov and Leetch. Vladdy had an insane +/- and even finished ahead of his own teammate Coffey for the Norris. I'd have still put Coffey ahead of Zubov at this time for sure.

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97-98 - Finished 2nd in points behind just Lidstrom. Zubov had 57, Niedermayer had 57, and Lidstrom had 59. Except, Lidstrom played 80 games, Niedermayer played 81, and Zubov played just 73. He was first in ppg with 0.78 while Lidstrom was 0.74 and Niedermayer was 0.70. Of the top 10 point getters among defensemen, only Lidstrom, Murphy, and Numminen had better +/- stats. The Stars also finished 1st overall. YET, Zubov finished 8th in Norris voting and 9th in Norris voting.
I don't know with this one. Hard to say since 1998 is often a lightning rod for controversy. I'm fine with it though. Blake winning the Norris and grabbing the 1st teamer with Lidstrom is legit. Pronger and Niedermayer both had their coming out party that year. The thing is, the only thing stopping Pronger from doing this year in and year out was injuries. Niedermayer on the other hand took half a dozen years to have another season like this one. This was a particularly spike season for him in those days. He reverted back to his usual 35 point seasons until 2004 when he took it to the next level. But in 1998 we didn't know he would falter so this individual season in particular was pretty good and deserving of a 2nd team all-star.

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98-99 - 51 points in 81 games. +9. Good year. Vital to the Stars. But deserved of any accolades? Maybe, but fine if he doesnt receive them. After all, it's been proven already that even when he clearly DOES deserve something, he doesnt get it. So why would he this season?
1st team all-stars are MacInnis and Lidstrom. MacInnis clearly the best defenseman in the NHL and wins the Norris that year. Hard to top that. 2nd team all-stars are Desjardins and Bourque. I think Desjardins had a more well rounded game than Zubov at this time while having as many points that year.

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02-03 - 4th in scoring behind just Lidstrom, Macinnis, and Gonchar but finishes 8th in Norris voting. Not a huge deal, but still shows a snub.
Lidstrom, MacInnis, Hatcher and Gonchar are the all-stars. Look, in my personal opinion the guy who was harder to play against on the Stars was Hatcher. Not offensively gifted, but as big as a house, as cheap and dirty as they come and could block, play great defense and fit in better with the Stars' system than anything. I would think many of us would think this way after watching the Stars of that era. Gonchar just had the same type of game but had more points that year, I think that did it.

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05-06 - Second in scoring behind just Lidstrom. Among the top 20 scoring defensemen, only Lidstrom and Zubov had +/- ratings in double digits +21 and +20 respectively. Lidstrom named to the 1st AS Team, wins Norris. Fair. BUT, where does Zubov finish in the voting? Mr.Scott Niedermayer, 63 points and a +8 compared to Zubov's 71 points and a +20 gets the other 1st AS Team nod and finishes 2nd in Norris voting. Zubov named to the 2nd Team (I'm actually surprised!) and finishes 3rd in Norris voting (I'm actually surprised at that too).
There you go, he gets rated higher than Chris Pronger in a year where Pronger carried the Oilers and let's face it no one is trading Pronger for Zubov. I think Zubov's season was deserved, but doesn't this show you he wasn't always snubbed?

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Zubov ranks among the elite statistically over those years, and clearly had seasons where he was passed over. You may argue that even when he was statistically elite, there were guys below him who were still better. Okay. Fine. Thats your revisionist opinion. But why then does Erik Karlsson get himself a Norris? Why P.K. Subban? Why do they get voted to the 1st AS Teams? Why do the voting rules change for other players, but somehow they ALWAYS found a reason to knock Zubov down a few notches?
Here's the thing, in the 1990s it was harder to win a Norris. There are some stud defensemen in the NHL today, but in 2012 Karlsson was just so good offensively that it was hard not to pick him. Personally I would have picked Weber. But in 2013 you may have had the weakest Norris race ever. Nothing against Subban, but Suter and Letang were his competition in a shortened season. If Letang doesn't miss so many games he wins it likely. Again, it was a case of weak competition and a good offensive year.

But look at this year, fine offensive seasons from Karlsson and Subban (especially Karlsson) and neither of them are finalists. Keith, Weber and Chara are finalists. We all saw the NHL this year, would anyone put Karlsson ahead of Keith despite the point differential? I wouldn't. So it has been happening for a long time. Phil Housley only had one 2nd team all-star in his career too and he trumps Zubov offensively but was bad defensively and almost no one complained at that time.

Look at Zubov's best offensive year in 1994. Would anyone have picked him for the Norris over that strong competition? Not I. He just didn't have enough of those seasons though.

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05-15-2014, 11:32 PM
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thom
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Does anyone think Kevin Lowe should get some love-I know he might be down the list but he was a d stalworth for over a decade

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05-15-2014, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Copmuters View Post
And how many times did Dino Cicarrelli, Joe Mullen or Joe Nieuwendyk finish in the top 5 in Hart voting?
I don't see how listing three of the worst inductees at forward really helps matters when the bar for defensemen is higher.

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05-16-2014, 01:00 AM
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I don't see how listing three of the worst inductees at forward really helps matters when the bar for defensemen is higher.
Why is it higher?

I asked that in the OP

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05-16-2014, 01:01 AM
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Does anyone think Kevin Lowe should get some love-I know he might be down the list but he was a d stalworth for over a decade
But then Adam Foote raises his hand and asks "What about me?"

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