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Hall of Fame Snubs: Defensemen Edition

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05-16-2014, 12:53 AM
  #51
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Copmuters View Post
Why is it higher?

I asked that in the OP
I don't know, but the HHOF definitely inducts proportionately more forwards than defensemen. Maybe because score more goals and points because they are forwards; I don't know. You definitely get the "he scored 600 goals so he should be in" thing with forwards that you don't get for defensemen.

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05-16-2014, 02:30 PM
  #52
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Originally Posted by Copmuters View Post
Why is it higher?

I asked that in the OP
Probably because there are less defensemen out there than forwards. Which means there are less of them to choose from and less of them that stood out. I mean, if I were to pick there is only one defenseman in there that I wouldn't have put in and it is Leo Boivin. There are no goalies I would personally remove. But there are a few forwards I would take out.

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Originally Posted by thom View Post
Does anyone think Kevin Lowe should get some love-I know he might be down the list but he was a d stalworth for over a decade
I don't like the idea of Lowe being in the HHOF. Fine defenseman and a very opportunistic one but his 6 Cups are more a product of Gretzky and Messier than the other way around.

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05-16-2014, 02:56 PM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
Probably because there are less defensemen out there than forwards. Which means there are less of them to choose from and less of them that stood out. I mean, if I were to pick there is only one defenseman in there that I wouldn't have put in and it is Leo Boivin. There are no goalies I would personally remove. But there are a few forwards I would take out.
Based on the law of averages, there should be 2 D-men in the Hall of Fame for every 3 forwards

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05-16-2014, 04:21 PM
  #54
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by Copmuters View Post
And how many times did Dino Cicarrelli, Joe Mullen or Joe Nieuwendyk finish in the top 5 in Hart voting?
if we're holding zubov or gary suter to their norris records (best defenseman, not best player), then i think we'd want to hold ciccarelli, mullen, and nieuwendyk to top fives at their positions.

mullen has six top 5s, peaking as a first team all-star. led the playoffs in goals twice. all told, he was probably the fourth best RW of his generation, behind kurri, makarov, and (maybe) anderson.

ciccarelli's resume is thinner. more compiled stats, but only three top 5s, the highest being 3rd (twice). but he's up against gartner (longevity/consistency) and kerr (peak) for 5th best RW of his generation. very very marginal, and i wouldn't have voted him in; maybe the zubov of HHOF wingers.

nieuwendyk, he's indefensible in my mind. the less said about him the better.

but look at some of the other HHOF forwards that people complain about: gillies, neely-- they have high positional finishes.


suter has exactly one top 5 (3rd). i don't think he has a case.

zubov has three top 5s (norris and all-star finishes vary, but to be generous he has a 3rd, a 4th, and a 5th). but of his generation, he's definitively behind lidstrom, pronger, and leetch (or, depending on where you put the cut-off for zubov's generation, replace leetch with chara). he's also behind niedermayer and blake, though i know one dallas fan who disagrees. in a heat with desjardins (whom i prefer), hatcher, gonchar, and maybe foote for #6. i think he has a very marginal case.

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05-16-2014, 04:30 PM
  #55
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but to take the question about the standard for defensemen vs. the standard for forwards seriously, if the standard were the same, these 80s/90s/00s guys should be hall of famers: zubov, derian hatcher, desjardins, lowe, mccrimmon, doug wilson, housley, maybe gonchar, maybe foote. rob blake definitely, but i think he's in anyway. i'm probably forgetting some guys there, but deliberately leaving out the likes of kaberle or mathieu schneider.

i still think gary suter is on the other side, just like a guy like brind'amour is (probably) on the outside for forwards. a second banana, and very very good one, but not so great of a second banana (i.e., ron francis) that it doesn't matter. i think it also hurts suter tremendously that he was hurt almost the entire playoffs when he won his cup.

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05-16-2014, 06:49 PM
  #56
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i'm curious: would you say zubov was more important/more impactful than hatcher in the glory years of the stars?
I know you weren't asking me, but as a fan of a rival Western Conference powerhouse during those years, my impression was that it was situational. Hatcher is the answer if the Stars were facing a big, tough, skilled forward that needed to be contained (see: Peter Forsberg). But if not, it seemed like Zubov was.

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05-16-2014, 08:30 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Copmuters View Post
Based on the law of averages, there should be 2 D-men in the Hall of Fame for every 3 forwards
I think this is the closest to being true but it's hardly a golden rule and you could also do the active roster ratio (or split the difference).

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05-17-2014, 01:02 PM
  #58
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by Sadekuuro View Post
I know you weren't asking me, but as a fan of a rival Western Conference powerhouse during those years, my impression was that it was situational. Hatcher is the answer if the Stars were facing a big, tough, skilled forward that needed to be contained (see: Peter Forsberg). But if not, it seemed like Zubov was.
well it was an open question-- and ms's response above, which i don't know if anyone noticed, was surprising and illuminating.

did zubov/sydor ever actually play a bigger role in a series (against detroit, or nj, eg) than hatcher/matvichuk? or did the pairs just play more equitable roles when there wasn't a forsberg to beat up?

but yes, obviously i wanted to hear what tjc thinks, as a longtime dallas fan.

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05-17-2014, 01:16 PM
  #59
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Personally i think it would be retarded not to let Zubov in, but perhaps it is becouse of the forward-bias. Obviously he did not do himself any favors by declining to play for Russia though.

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05-17-2014, 06:01 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by MS View Post
People might be surprised to know that Zubov and Hatcher produced nearly identical offensive numbers at ES between 1997 and 2003.

Hatcher was clearly the alpha dog on the blueline through that time period for Dallas, was their minute leader and took all the tough matchups, and played heaps on the PK. Zubov was brilliant on the PP, yes. But #2 defenders who do well on the PP don't get Norris votes, and not because they're being 'snubbed' or there's a conspiracy against them.
See that inference suggests that somehow Hatcher and Zubov are somewhat close in terms of offensive ability when the exact opposite is true.

Using ES points in the clutch and grab era is about as use full as comparing their plus minus, without taking into account defensive assignments IMO.

The league is quite clear in assigning values of supply and demand to a players value, a guy that can eat MPG and be a stud on the PP like Zubov is more in demand than a guy like Hatcher, not to mention Hatcher and his value is all around his peak and he couldn't adjust post lockout, ie the clutch and grab era was taylor made for his style of play.

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05-17-2014, 08:59 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
did zubov/sydor ever actually play a bigger role in a series (against detroit, or nj, eg) than hatcher/matvichuk? or did the pairs just play more equitable roles when there wasn't a forsberg to beat up?
If by role you mean ice time, then I doubt it--Hatcher certainly always played a lot. And I don't know if Zubov ever blew up statistically in a playoff series (is there a good source to look at a player or team game by game by playoff series?). I just know that as a rival fan, Zubov was so slick with the puck, so patient and poised, I was always worried he'd burn us. Hatcher usually only concerned me inasmuch as he might scramble someone's brain with his elbow. Both were surrounded by such a well structured team that Hatcher's defensive impact didn't seem outsized, nor did Zubov seem a liability.

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05-22-2014, 08:54 AM
  #62
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Scoring levels vary by era and it's only part of being a dman. You can't judge the best dmen by total points.

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05-22-2014, 09:34 AM
  #63
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JC Tremblay should make the Hall of Fame before a lot of the guys listed in the OP.

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05-22-2014, 09:40 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by tony d View Post
JC Tremblay should make the Hall of Fame before a lot of the guys listed in the OP.
Yes, he's the best that's not in.

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05-22-2014, 10:46 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Copmuters View Post
And how many times did Dino Cicarrelli, Joe Mullen or Joe Nieuwendyk finish in the top 5 in Hart voting?
That's not unreasonable.

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But then Adam Foote raises his hand and asks "What about me?"
He can keep asking. I'd like to believe that HHOFers don't bail out of a team that they captain in the thick of a playoff race by demanding a trade that had apparently been orchestrated behind the scenes (to the point of possible tampering) for some time.

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05-22-2014, 10:52 AM
  #66
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Zubov has always seemed like the Ron Francis of defensemen. Always in the upper echelon at his position, underrated during his career because of a couple of guys in front who were obviously better (and were all-time greats), never the best.

The difference is that every year from 1992-93 on, Francis was always regarded as the most underrated player in the league. Then after the 2002 Cup Final, pretty much everyone stopped talking about "most underrated" around the league entirely, like it was a title that could belong to no one except Francis and would retire with him.

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05-22-2014, 01:16 PM
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony d View Post
JC Tremblay should make the Hall of Fame before a lot of the guys listed in the OP.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkman View Post
Yes, he's the best that's not in.
People keep saying this but what exactly is the rationale behind it.

Let's look at his career, no voting at all up until the age of 26 when he places 11th (or just above the middle mark for full time Dmen in the 6 team NHL all Canadian league)

63-64 he doesn't show up in voting at age 25 and 16 dmen do

NORRIS: (324/324, 162-162)
1. Pierre Pilote, Chi 138 (72-66)
2. Tim Horton, Tor 70 (43-27)
3. Elmer Vasko, Chi 28 (21-7)
4. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 25 (6-19)
T5. Terry Harper, Mtl 13 (1-12)
T5. Harry Howell, NYR 13 (1-12)
T7. Bob Baun, Tor 9 (7-2)
T7. Doug Barkley, Det 9 (2-7)
9. Carl Brewer, Tor 4 (4-0)
T10. Al MacNeil, Chi 3 (3-0)
T10. Doug Mohns, Bos 3 (0-3)
T10. Allan Stanley, Tor 3 (0-3)
T10. Marcel Pronovost, Det 3 (0-3)
T14. Bill Gadsby, Det 1 (1-0)
T14. Tom Johnson, Bos 1 (1-0)
T14. Leo Boivin, Bos 1 (0-1)

64-65, age 26 he finishes 10th tied with 2 other Dmen

NORRIS: (324/324, 162-162)
1. Pierre Pilote, Chi 93 (32-61)
2. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 78 (55-23)
3. Bill Gadsby, Det 40 (18-22)
4. Tim Horton, Tor 27 (15-12)
5. Marcel Pronovost, Det 20 (0-20)
6. Carl Brewer, TOR 19 (14-5)
7. Ted Green, BOS 17 (13-4)
8. Bob Baun, TOR 15 (5-10)
9. Harry Howell, NYR 12 (8-4)
T10. Doug Barkley, DET 1 (0-1)
T10. Elmer Vasko, CHI 1 (1-0)
T10. J.C. Tremblay, MTL 1 (1-0)

65-66 he is 4th

NORRIS: (324/324, 162-162)
1. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 89 (62-27)
2. Pierre Pilote, Chi 54 (42-12)
3. Pat Stapleton, Chi 40 (0-40)
4. J.C. Tremblay, Mtl 32 (0-32)
5. Doug Barkley, Det 30 (30-0)
6. Harry Howell, NYR 28 (9-19)
7. Allan Stanley, Tor 23 (2-21)
8. Matt Ravlich, Chi 6 (6-0)
T9. Tim Horton, Tor 5 (4-1)
T9. Terry Harper, Mtl 5 (0-5)
T11. Marcel Pronovost, Tor 4 (3-1)
T11. Bill Gadsby, Det 4 (0-4)
13. Ted Green, Bos 3 (3-0)
14. Jean-Guy Talbot, Mtl 1 (1-0)

66-67 he is 5th

NORRIS: (324/324, 162-162)
1. Harry Howell, NYR 113 (79-34)
2. Pierre Pilote, Chi 95 (32-63)
3. Bobby Orr, Bos 36 (10-26)
4. Tim Horton, Tor 34 (19-15)
5. J.C. Tremblay, Mtl 18 (9-9)
6. Gary Bergman, Det 8 (0-8)
7. Doug Jarrett, Chi 7 (0-7)
T8. Terry Harper, Mtl 5 (5-0)
T8. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 5 (5-0)
T10. Ted Green, Bos 1 (1-0)
T10. Leo Boivin, Det 1 (1-0)
T10. Arnie Brown, NYR 1 (1-0)

67-68 he is 2nd his highest ever rating finishing behind a rookie Bobby Orr who only played in 46 of his teams 74 games and this is still well before the "elite" Bobby Orr

NORRIS: (216/216, 108-108)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 68 (56-12)
2. J.C. Tremblay, Mtl 31 (5-26)
3. Tim Horton, Tor 30 (22-8)
4. Jim Neilson, NYR 26 (0-26)
5. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 15 (3-12)
6. Pierre Pilote, Chi 11 (11-0)
7. Bill White, LA 9 (1-8)
8. Mike McMahon, Min 8 (0-8)
9. Ted Green, Bos 6 (0-6)
10. Harry Howell, NYR 5 (3-2)
11. Gary Bergman, Det 4 (4-0)
T12. Pat Stapleton, Chi 1 (1-0)
T12. Ed Van Impe, Phi 1 (1-0)
T12. Kent Douglas, Oak-Det 1 (1-0)

68-69 he is 8th in voting sure it's a 12 team league now but 7 of the top 8 norris guys are from the original 6, so still a definite advantage for JC

NORRIS: (324/324)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 176
2. Tim Horton, Tor 48
3. Ted Green, Bos 27
4. Ted Harris, Mtl 22
5. Al Arbour, St. L 17
6. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 9
7. Jim Nielson, NYR 7
8. J.C. Tremblay, Mtl 5
9. Bill White, LA 4
T10. Pat Stapleton, Chi 3
T10. Bob Baun, Det 3
12. Carol Vadnais, Oak 2
13. Doug Harvey, StL 1

69-70 he doesn't figure in the voting playing in only 58 games but if bobby can be first in 46 games at the age of 19, you would think JC could break top 11 in 53 games if he was really that great right?

NORRIS: (319/324)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 180
2. Brad Park, NYR 58
3. Carl Brewer, Det 22
4. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 18
5. Jim Neilson, NYR 11
6. Al Arbour, StL 9
7. Pat Stapleton, Chi 8
T8. Wayne Connelly, Det 3
T8. Keith Magnuson, Chi 3
T8. Doug Mohns, Chi 3
T11. Doug Jarrett, Chi 2
T11. Barclay Plager, StL 2

70-71 he is 3rd but people readily admit the drop off after Orr and Park is simply huge at this point

NORRIS: (378/378)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 208
2. Brad Park, NYR 57
3. J.C. Tremblay, Mtl 35
4. Pat Stapleton, Chi 23
T5. Bob Baun, Tor 10
T5. Keith Magnuson, Chi 10
7. Bill White, Chi 9
T8. Dallas Smith, Bos 6
T8. Jim Neilson, NYR 6
10. Rod Seiling, NYR 5
11. Ted Harris, Min 4
12. Tim Horton, NYR 3
T13. Jim Roberts, StL 1
T13. Don Awrey, Bos 1

71-72 He is a dsitant 5th with the 4th place guy gettign double the votes

NORRIS: (378/378)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 204
2. Brad Park, NYR 117
3. Bill White, Chi 25
4. Pat Stapleton, Chi 16
5. J.C. Tremblay, Mtl 8
6. Dallas Smith, Bos 3
T7. Barclay Plager, StL 1
T7. Gary Bergman, Det 1
T7. Gilles Marotte, LA 1
T7. Rod Seiling, NYR 1
T7. Ted Harris, Min 1

72-73 JC was in the WHA and the Habs don't skip a beat with 3 Dmen in the top 6 of Norris voting

NORRIS: (432/432)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 224
2. Guy Lapointe, Mtl 58
T3. Bill White, Chi 36
T3. Brad Park, NYR 36
5. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 25
6. Serge Savard, Mtl 22
7. Rod Seiling, NYR 11
8. Dave Burrows, Pit 6
T9. Tim Horton, Buf 4
T9. Terry Harper, LA 4
T11. Gary Bergman, Det 2
T11. Larry Hillman, Buf 2
T13. Pat Stapleton, Chi 1
T13. Barclay Plager, StL 1

Sure JC lights it up for the Nords team in the WHA that year at age 34 but the quality of Dmen in the WHA is extremely low and Tremblay is getting his votes by passing the puck to a high flying offense and those Nords finished 11 out of 12 WHA teams in GA, JC certainly wasn't a tower of defense on the back end was he?

I think the Norris voters and his finishes is why he is not in the HHOF

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05-22-2014, 05:18 PM
  #68
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69-70 he doesn't figure in the voting playing in only 58 games but if bobby can be first in 46 games at the age of 19, you would think JC could break top 11 in 53 games if he was really that great right?
I don't think it makes any sense to compare him to Orr, people are saying he's a borderline in Hall of Famer rather than a borderline out. The comparison would be Rob Blake or someone like that, and Rob Blake wasn't getting any Norris votes when he missed a quarter of the season either.

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I think the Norris voters and his finishes is why he is not in the HHOF
A Norris record with a 2nd place, 3rd place, 4th place and 2 5th place records is pretty solid in Hall of Fame terms, and that's without giving him credit for his WHA where he came over directly after getting Norris votes and was still obviously a really good player.

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05-22-2014, 05:36 PM
  #69
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I don't think it makes any sense to compare him to Orr, people are saying he's a borderline in Hall of Famer rather than a borderline out. The comparison would be Rob Blake or someone like that, and Rob Blake wasn't getting any Norris votes when he missed a quarter of the season either.


A Norris record with a 2nd place, 3rd place, 4th place and 2 5th place records is pretty solid in Hall of Fame terms, and that's without giving him credit for his WHA where he came over directly after getting Norris votes and was still obviously a really good player.
It's extremely debatable on how his Norris voting would be age 34 and older, the WHA was really weak, extremely so for Dmen.

also the 2,3,4 and 2 5ths among Canadian Dmen is good but there is probably a Dman or 2 with a better Norris record among Canadian Dmen and the competition overall for JC is so-so at best.

before even accounting for the international talent Rob Blake has an actual Norris and here are his finishes

1,3,3,4,4,4,5,8,12,17

it's pretty hard to argue that JC has a better voting record than Blake and that's before we do an apples to apples comp.

Blake also has a 11 (21) and 13th (23) all star voting in earlier years to add to his resume.


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05-22-2014, 05:46 PM
  #70
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When jOHN Garret is the winningest goalie in wha history we have a problem as for Jc Tremblay I respect the guy-just dont know if he is a hall of famer or not

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05-22-2014, 06:57 PM
  #71
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When jOHN Garret is the winningest goalie in wha history we have a problem as for Jc Tremblay I respect the guy-just dont know if he is a hall of famer or not
Where is the connection between those two statements?

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05-22-2014, 09:11 PM
  #72
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Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
well it was an open question-- and ms's response above, which i don't know if anyone noticed, was surprising and illuminating.

did zubov/sydor ever actually play a bigger role in a series (against detroit, or nj, eg) than hatcher/matvichuk? or did the pairs just play more equitable roles when there wasn't a forsberg to beat up?

but yes, obviously i wanted to hear what tjc thinks, as a longtime dallas fan.
Hatcher was the leader. He was our physical presence in a time when that mattered probably more than any other time. I have a hard time saying one guy was more important than the other, but Zubov was the guy that brought that skill that was so hard to find (and still is). He did things from the back-end almost Gretzky-like. He just made things look so easy and simple some times, and just made plays that nobody else could back there. He was just unassuming, quiet, and went about his business. He was like a silent assassin. A ninja I guess you could say. And he certainly made everyone around him better whenever he was on the ice. Opponents feared him, almost as much as Modano.

Hatcher was feared too for obvious reasons. He and Zubov were both guys who could play 30 minutes vs the other team's top players and still be at the top of their game. Zubov was like Lidstrom in that he wasn't going to really beat you up physically, but he was going to outsmart you and then put that dagger in your back offensively - and make it look easy. He was a surgeon out there - cutting through teams like a knife. His heads up plays - whether carrying the puck up ice, firing a tape-to-tape breakaway pass from his own net, putting the puck in the perfect spot from the point, or threading a pass though traffic in the offensive zone right on to the stick of the player nobody else saw coming - were as lethal as any defenseman I've seen play.

I heard somewhere that Hatcher was 2nd in Conn Smythe voting in '99. Not sure if that's 100% true or not, but I could see it. He was our defensive, physical rock. Really though, there were a few guys who could have gotten it that year. Zubov likely wouldn't have been in my top 2 or 3 choices, but he was excellent.

You look at his career (stats + winning + making players around him better + consistency) and he deserves to be in the HOF. I prefer him over Niedermayer (slightly) but even if you prefer Niedermayer, there is no way in H-E-double hockey sticks that the difference is one guy being carried in on Egyptian sedan being fed grapes while the other never gets a sniff. THAT is all fanfare, popularity, and a blown up reputation. That's the biggest difference between Zubov and Niedermayer.


Last edited by tjcurrie: 05-22-2014 at 09:34 PM.
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05-22-2014, 09:32 PM
  #73
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One might prefer Hatcher to Zubov in several seasons but Zubov had significant Norris consideration for a period over 14 years, something that puts him in rare company.

He simply put has an outstanding NHL resume and should be in the HHOF very soon and is the best Dman not in who isn't playing right now...outside of Pronger who is a lock.

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05-22-2014, 09:36 PM
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Ishdul
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Blake only has one 4th place finish, it just shows 3 on HRef because of how they list it with the Kings, Avs and then overall the season he was traded.

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05-27-2014, 08:43 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ishdul View Post
I don't think it makes any sense to compare him to Orr, people are saying he's a borderline in Hall of Famer rather than a borderline out. The comparison would be Rob Blake or someone like that, and Rob Blake wasn't getting any Norris votes when he missed a quarter of the season either.


A Norris record with a 2nd place, 3rd place, 4th place and 2 5th place records is pretty solid in Hall of Fame terms, and that's without giving him credit for his WHA where he came over directly after getting Norris votes and was still obviously a really good player.
And that's just Tremblay's regular season resume. Which by itself isn't doesn't have him a must-add for the HHOF. But combined with the fact that he was basically the #1 defenseman on a dynasty (due to ill-timed injuries to Jacques Laperriere), and he would be a lock if he didn't piss people off by joining the WHA.


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