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Hall of Fame Snubs: Defensemen Edition

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Old
05-27-2014, 09:56 PM
  #76
kmad
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Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
Where is the connection between those two statements?
He's discrediting Tremblay's WHA accomplishments, saying the WHA is a joke because John Garrett is their all time wins leader.

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05-27-2014, 10:31 PM
  #77
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Early in his career Zubov was awful defensive wise and only improved with Dallas. I don't believe he is all that great and doesn't belong. To me Blake was better all around but is borderline as well. Since Niedermayer got the call despite not being an offensive dynamo I will elect Blake. To me Housley is the biggest snub. I dont see Andrechuyk as a HOF player.

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05-27-2014, 10:33 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by kmad View Post
He's discrediting Tremblay's WHA accomplishments, saying the WHA is a joke because John Garrett is their all time wins leader.
I understand that, but Tremblay's NHL accomplishments look good enough already so it shouldn't matter.

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05-27-2014, 10:48 PM
  #79
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Quote:
Phil Housley
Nicklas Lidstrom
Scott Niedermayer
History ought not to forget these guys!

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05-28-2014, 12:00 AM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
It's extremely debatable on how his Norris voting would be age 34 and older, the WHA was really weak, extremely so for Dmen.

also the 2,3,4 and 2 5ths among Canadian Dmen is good but there is probably a Dman or 2 with a better Norris record among Canadian Dmen and the competition overall for JC is so-so at best.

before even accounting for the international talent Rob Blake has an actual Norris and here are his finishes

1,3,3,4,4,4,5,8,12,17

it's pretty hard to argue that JC has a better voting record than Blake and that's before we do an apples to apples comp.

Blake also has a 11 (21) and 13th (23) all star voting in earlier years to add to his resume.
Then again, one might argue that Blake isn't exactly a snub at this point.

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05-28-2014, 12:29 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Then again, one might argue that Blake isn't exactly a snub at this point.
Sure there are arguments against him getting into the HHOF, but to say that it's clearly JC Tremblay isn't supported by Norris voting very well at all.

Put another way Blake has a very strong argument to being in the HHOF as much or better than JC Tremblay, probably Zubov as well now that I think about it.

The case for JC has been simply overstated IMO and seems to be backed by voters of the Norris at the time as well.

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05-28-2014, 12:42 AM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
The case for JC has been simply overstated IMO and seems to be backed by voters of the Norris at the time as well.
JC Tremblay "overstated" or "overrated"? I dont think so Hv. Guy was a scary good player. Remember him well, particularly in 66 when it was a toss~up between him & Roger Crozier for the Conn Smythe. One of my favorites.

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05-28-2014, 07:01 AM
  #83
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Does anyone think Kevin Lowe should get some love-I know he might be down the list but he was a d stalworth for over a decade
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Originally Posted by Copmuters View Post
But then Adam Foote raises his hand and asks "What about me?"
Him and a bunch of other defensive defensemen. With Lowe I could see it happening via a push from the old boys network on the HOF committee and some kind of "6 Cups" excuse. But there's a collection of really good defensemen from the late 80s onward who aren't going to get a sniff of the HOF based on current standards, despite being clearly better than some defensemen (*cough*LeoBoivin*cough*) who are already enshrined. Besides Lowe and Foote, Derian Hatcher (who's name has come up in related to Zubov) and Ulf Samuelsson are two who come to mind.

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05-28-2014, 09:40 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Sure there are arguments against him getting into the HHOF, but to say that it's clearly JC Tremblay isn't supported by Norris voting very well at all.

Put another way Blake has a very strong argument to being in the HHOF as much or better than JC Tremblay, probably Zubov as well now that I think about it.

The case for JC has been simply overstated IMO and seems to be backed by voters of the Norris at the time as well.
You missed my point Hardy, so I'll rephrase.

Nothing in Blake's resume screams "should already have been in". He's not a snub; he just isn't in yet. He's not a Lidstrom who'll be a unanimous vote on first year of eligibility.

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05-28-2014, 01:37 PM
  #85
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
You missed my point Hardy, so I'll rephrase.

Nothing in Blake's resume screams "should already have been in". He's not a snub; he just isn't in yet. He's not a Lidstrom who'll be a unanimous vote on first year of eligibility.
My point wasn't entirely directed at your comments but rather to those who suggested that it was clearly JC, when it really isn't that clear.

It's pretty clear that Zubov and Blake for instance have as good or better cases going forwards.

I'm not sure there is a snub "screams already should have been in" in terms of Dmen then, guys that have a case but no Makarov who is an obvious snub.

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05-28-2014, 01:39 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
My point wasn't entirely directed at your comments but rather to those who suggested that it was clearly JC, when it really isn't that clear.

It's pretty clear that Zubov and Blake for instance have as good or better cases going forwards.

I'm not sure there is a snub "screams already should have been in" in terms of Dmen then, guys that have a case but no Makarov who is an obvious snub.
Tremblay has a significantly better Norris/All Star record than Zubov, and was the #1 defenseman in the playoffs on a dynasty. How can you use Norris record to try to show that Blake > Tremblay, then turn around and say Zubov has a better case than Tremblay?

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Old
05-28-2014, 04:58 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Tremblay has a significantly better Norris/All Star record than Zubov, and was the #1 defenseman in the playoffs on a dynasty. How can you use Norris record to try to show that Blake > Tremblay, then turn around and say Zubov has a better case than Tremblay?
Well we can compare JC and Zubov h2h with an apples to apples comp for starters right?

Before we do that Zubov has an extremely good playoff resume, probably better than JC but he won't beat the #1 Dman on a dynasty argument (which is a bit misleading, he wasn't Kelly, Potvin or Harvey in that sense).

We have Zubov with finishes like this from age 23 to 37

4,12,13,9,8,8,17,3,9,17 over that time period.

I won't bother getting into the variance part of the argument with 21-30 other top PP QB and #1 Dmen in the league as well but simply go through and compare how Zubov did against all Canadian Dmen over that period of time.

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05-28-2014, 05:02 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Well we can compare JC and Zubov h2h with an apples to apples comp for starters right?

Before we do that Zubov has an extremely good playoff resume, probably better than JC but he won't beat the #1 Dman on a dynasty argument (which is a bit misleading, he wasn't Kelly, Potvin or Harvey in that sense).

We have Zubov with finishes like this from age 23 to 37

4,12,13,9,8,8,17,3,9,17 over that time period.

I won't bother getting into the variance part of the argument with 21-30 other top PP QB and #1 Dmen in the league as well but simply go through and compare how Zubov did against all Canadian Dmen over that period of time.
Not correct

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Old
05-28-2014, 07:14 PM
  #89
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so here is how Zubov does against Canadian guys in Norris voting over that period of time.

94 aged 23

NORRIS: Ray Bourque 199 (26-21-6)
Scott Stevens 195 (24-23-6)
Al MacInnis 60 (4-6-22)
Sergei Zubov 15 (0-2-9) Still 4th followed directly by 2 guys from the states
Brian Leetch 10 (0-2-4)
Chris Chelios 3 (0-0-3)
Paul Coffey 1 (0-0-1)
Nicklas Lidstrom 1 (0-0-1)
Sandis Ozolinsh 1 (0-0-1)
Larry Murphy 1 (0-0-1)

95 shortened season only 6 candidates in the process

NORRIS: Paul Coffey 69 (12-3-0)
Chris Chelios 39 (2-9-2)
Ray Bourque 20 (1-1-12)
Larry Murphy 7 (0-2-3)
Steve Duchesne 0 (0-0-0)
Brian Leetch 0 (0-0-0)

4 Canucks in the top 6, Zubov finished 9th in points that season among Dmen with only 4 Canadian Dmen ahead of him (all 4 are listed above), if there had been a full voting process that year like the year before or after it's hard to say how Zubov would have done but likely a top 10 among all Canadina Dmen and closer to 5 than 10 would be a good guess, based on the patterns the year before and after.

96 aged 25 His 12 goes to a 6th place

NORRIS: Chris Chelios 408 (22-19-9-3-1)
Ray Bourque 403 (23-16-8-7-0)
Brian Leetch 245 (6-6-23-7-7)
Vladimir Konstantinov 131 (2-6-7-10-4)
Paul Coffey 83 (0-4-2-12-9)
Nicklas Lidstrom 54 (0-1-3-7-11)
Roman Hamrlik 25 (1-0-0-3-6)
Gary Suter 11 (0-0-1-0-6)
Eric Desjardins 9 (0-1-0-0-2)
Scott Stevens 9 (0-0-0-2-3)
Teppo Numminen 7 (0-1-0-0-0)
Mark Tinordi 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Sergei Zubov 5 (0-0-0-1-2)
Phil Housley 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Larry Murphy 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Shawn Chambers 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Calle Johansson 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Ed Jovanovski 1 (0-0-0-0-1)

97 aged 26 (Tremblay first year he received votes and finished 11th BTW), Zubov finishes 5th among all Canadian Dmen and this year really showed the international competition with 13 of the 19 guys getting voted being non Canadians.

NORRIS:
Brian Leetch 494 (42-8-3-1-0)
Vladimir Konstantinov 178 (2-10-13-6-5)
Sandis Ozolinsh 176 (2-12-9-8-3)
Chris Chelios 172 (0-7-18-9-6)
Scott Stevens 171 (7-8-4-7-4)
Nicklas Lidstrom 60 (0-5-2-3-6)
Darryl Sydor 45 (1-1-1-5-8)
Ray Bourque 45 (0-2-2-4-9)
Eric Desjardins 21 (0-1-0-3-5)
Oleg Tverdovsky 9 (0-0-1-1-1)
Bryan Berard 8 (0-0-0-2-2)
Kevin Hatcher 6 (0-0-0-2-0)
Sergei Zubov 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Robert Svehla 4 (0-0-0-1-1)
Steve Duchesne 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Chris Pronger 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Derian Hatcher 2 (0-0-0-0-2)
Sergei Gonchar 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Dmitri Mironov 1 (0-0-0-0-1)

so up to the age of 26 here is how they stand in norris voting

Tremblay 11th (all other years not in the top 13-15)

Zubov 4,6,5 and another probable 5-10 in 95 (with the same voting patterns)

98 aged 27 (Tremblay gets a 4th that age) Zobov goes from 9th to 8th but notice the international guys in total on the list again with 8 of 10 guys behind Zubov being non Canadians

NORRIS:

Rob Blake 401 (27-12-8-2-1)
Nicklas Lidstrom 369 (15-22-10-5-0)
Chris Pronger 316 (8-15-23-5-1)
Scott Stevens 84 (3-2-2-9-3)
Scott Niedermayer 58 (0-0-3-10-13)
Larry Murphy 47 (1-0-3-5-7)
Ray Bourque 37 (0-1-3-2-9)
Al MacInnis 26 (0-1-1-4-2)
Sergei Zubov 22 (0-1-0-3-6)
Teppo Numminen 22 (0-0-1-3-8)
Darryl Sydor 6 (0-0-0-2-0)
Chris Chelios 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Kenny Jonsson 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Darius Kasparaitis 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Alexei Zhitnik 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Eric Desjardins 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Kevin Hatcher 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Calle Johansson 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Boris Mironov 1 (0-0-0-0-1)

99 aged 28 (Tremblay gets a 5th place finish)Zubov's 13th becomes an 8th

NORRIS:
Al MacInnis 548 (54-0-1-1-0)
Nicklas Lidstrom 234 (0-21-9-13-3)
Ray Bourque 157 (0-9-12-8-10)
Chris Pronger 107 (1-5-9-3-8)
Eric Desjardins 91 (0-6-4-6-11)
Scott Stevens 55 (0-3-4-4-2)
Derian Hatcher 53 (0-4-3-24)
Brian Leetch 49 (0-2-3-5-5)
Fredrik Olausson 48 (0-1-5-4-4)
Phil Housley 40 (1-2-1-3-2)
Larry Murphy 21 (0-1-1-3-0)
Scott Niedermayer 18 (0-2-0-1-1)
Sergei Zubov 12 (0-0-1-2-1)
Aleksander Karpovtsev 6 (0-0-1-0-1)
Adam Foote 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Darryl Sydor 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Rob Blake 4 (0-0-0-1-1)
Chris Chelios 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Darryl Shannon 1 (0-0-0-0-1)

00 age 29 (Tremblay hits his peak 2nd place) Zubov's 9 becomes a 6th place finish

NORRIS:
Chris Pronger 565 (53-5-0-0-0)
Nicklas Lidstom 400 (5-46-5-1-0)
Rob Blake 196 (0-3-25-15-5)
Eric Desjardins 119 (0-2-8-19-8)
Sergei Gonchar 78 (0-0-7-10-13)
Chris Chelios 54 (0-2-5-3-6)
Ray Bourque 36 (0-0-3-4-9)
Al MacInnis 23 (0-0-2-3-4)
Sergei Zubov 10 (0-0-2-0-0)
Scott Stevens 9 (0-0-1-0-4)
Teppo Numminen 4 (0-0-0-1-1)
Wade Redden 4 (0-0-0-1-1)
Sean Hill 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Robert Svehla 2 (0-0-0-0-2)
Oleg Tverdovsky 2 (0-0-0-0-2)
Derian Hatcher 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Ed Jovanovski 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Sandis Ozolinsh 1 (0-0-0-0-1)

age 30 (Tremblay is 8th) Zubov's 8th becomes a 5th

NORRIS:
Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 600 (56-5-1-0-0)
Ray Bourque, COL 251 (4-16-12-10-9)
Scott Stevens, N.J. 203 (1-15-14-4-6)
Rob Blake, L.A.-COL 176 (1-11-8-14-7)
Brian Leetch, NYR 126 (0-9-7-5-13)
Sergei Gonchar, WSH 94 (0-1-9-12-6)
Al MacInnis, STL 49 (0-0-6-5-4)
Sergei Zubov, DAL 28 (0-1-1-4-4)
Brian Rafalski, N.J. 26 (0-2-1-2-1)
Eric Desjardins, PHI 14 (0-2-0-0-0)
Chris Pronger, STL 14 (0-0-1-2-3)
Wade Redden, OTT 13 (0-0-1-2-2)
Derian Hatcher, DAL 9 (0-0-1-1-1)
Dan McGillis, PHI 4 (0-0-0-1-1)
Ed Jovanovski, VAN 2 (0-0-0-0-2)
Brad Lukowich, DAL 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Jason Smith, EDM 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Oleg Tverdovsky, ANA 1 (0-0-0-0-1)

aged 31 both guys don't figure in the voting, only 6 Canadian players do for zubov's year, 12 guys receive Norris votes in Tremblay's year (shortened by injury to 58 games) 27 Dmen receive votes for the all star team, Tremblay isn't on of them.

Zubov was 12th in Dman scoring that year (5th among Canadian ones) and it's safe to say that even with his down year he most likely is at least 27th overall one would think.

NORRIS:
Nicklas Lidstrom, Det 472 (29-20-7-2-1)
Chris Chelios, Det 431 (28-10-13-4-4)
Rob Blake, Col 321 (4-19-22-12-2)
Sergei Gonchar, Was 147 (0-6-6-22-9)
Chris Pronger, StL 62 (0-4-1-8-5)
Ed Jovanovski, Van 53 (0-0-7-3-9)
Teppo Numminen, Phx 44 (0-1-3-5-7)
Adrian Aucoin, NYI 28 (1-1-0-2-5)
Brian Leetch, NYR 22 (0-0-1-2-11)
Mattias Ohlund, Van 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Scott Stevens, N.J. 5 (0-0-1-0-0)

Age 32 season (Tremblay is 3rd) Zubov is 8th but 4th among all Canadian players

Nicklas Lidstrom 560 (42-20-0-0-0)
Al MacInnis 486 (20-38-4-0-0)
Derian Hatcher 142 (0-1-21-9-3)
Sergei Gonchar 131 (0-1-12-17-13)
Rob Blake 62 (0-0-8-5-7)
Ed Jovanovski 58 (0-2-5-5-4)
Zdeno Chara 55 (0-0-4-10-5)
Sergei Zubov 37 (0-0-3-4-10);
Wade Redden 21 (0-0-2-2-5)
Adam Foote 18 (0-0-1-3-4)
Tomas Kaberle 9 (0-0-0-3-0)
Dan Boyle 8 (0-0-0-2-2)
Scott Niedermayer 7 (0-0-1-0-2)
Eric Desjardins 6 (0-0-0-1-3)
Brian Leetch 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Scott Stevens 5 (0-0-0-1-2)
Chris Chelios 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Sandis Ozolinsh 1 (0-0-0-0-1)

Age 33 season (Tremblay is 5th in Norris voting) Zubov is 17th overall, 11th among Canadians

Scott Niedermayer, NJD 872 (72-13-10-3-2)
Zdeno Chara, OTT 563 (19-36-16-11-8)
Chris Pronger, STL 345 (7-19-16-17-11)
Bryan McCabe, TOR 189 (1-12-10-10-15)
Adrian Aucoin, NYI 166 (2-3-12-16-17)
Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 165 (1-6-10-19-6)
Mathieu Schneider, DET 144 (1-2-17-7-14)
Rob Blake, COL 124 (1-8-5-9-6)
Sergei Gonchar, BOS 55 (0-3-4-4-2)
Wade Redden, OTT 31 (0-0-2-6-3)
Brian Leetch, TOR 19 (0-0-2-2-3)
Sheldon Souray, MON 12 (0-1-0-0-5)
Marek Malik, VAN 7 (0-1-0-0-0)
Mattias Ohlund, VAN 3 (0-0-0-0-3)
Pavel Kubina, TAM 2 (0-0-0-0-2)
Marek Zidlicky, NAS 2 (0-0-0-0-2)
Bryan Berard, CHI 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Dan Boyle, TAM 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Mike Rathje, SAN 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Dick Tarnstrom, PIT 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Sergei Zubov, DAL 1 (0-0-0-0-1)

Age 34 seasons Trembly is the best Dman in the WHA, Zubov is locked out of the NHL

So let's recap both guys up until now.

Tremblay doesn't receive a Norris vote up until the age of 26 (25 and under) and in every year 13-15 guys do in a 6 team all Canadian league.

Zubov has a 4 and 6 and a likely 5-10th in the shortened season if regular voting took place.

From 26-33 Tremblay peak NHL and all of his Norris voting years he has a
2,3,4,5,5,8,11

Zubov over the same period of time is
4,5,5,6,8,8,11

There is an edge here to Tremblay to be sure but it's not huge and if we combine their entire body of work up to the age of 23, Zubov has an extra 4th and 6th, along with the 5-10th reasonable finish in a different type of voting year in the shorted 48 Game season.

In addition it's quite clear both of their age 31 age seasons that Zubov had the better season, as Tremblay wasn't in the top 27 dmen receiving all star votes.

Either way it's hard to say that the level of Canadian competition was worse, overall for Zubov than for Tremblay up until the age of 33 but if others want to peruse that, I guess they could.

Now aged 34 and older Tremblay is in the WHA and has 2 seasons as the best Dman in that league and places on the 1st all star team 3 times and the 2nd one time.

Pretty impressive for his age but let's leave that for now to look at Zubov who in his age 34 year has an NHL lockout (the year before he is 11th in Canadian voting, the year after he is 3rd overall and the 2nd best Canadian

NORRIS:

1.Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 1,152 (91-28-8-2-0)
2. Scott Niedermayer, ANA 817 (29-57-16-15-3)
3. Sergei Zubov, DAL 464 (0-21-42-31-14)
4. Zdeno Chara, OTT 430 (5-14-35-30-17)
5. Wade Redden, OTT 115 (0-1-12-12-12)
6. Mathieu Schneider, DET 111 (4-5-1-4-19)
7. Chris Pronger, EDM 97 (0-1-5-15-20)
8. Dion Phaneuf, CGY 61 (0-0-6-6-13)
9. Bryan McCabe, TOR 44 (0-1-2-6-9)
10. Lubomir Visnovsky, LOS 39 (0-0-2-6-11)
11. Brian Rafalski, NJD 7 (0-1-0-0-0)
12. Rob Blake, COL 6 (0-0-0-1-3)
13. Tomas Kaberle, TOR 5 (0-0-0-1-2)
14. Robyn Regehr, CGY 2 (0-0-0-0-2)
15. Dan Boyle, TAM 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Sergei Gonchar, PIT 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Joni Pitkanen, PHI 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Marek Zidlicky, NAS 1 (0-0-0-0-1)

Age 36 Zubov is 9th overall, 6th among Canadians

NORRIS: Pts. 1st-2nd-3rd-4th-5th
1. Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 1217 (87-44-5-4-2)
2. Scott Niedermayer, ANA 1024 (46-62-22-6-2)
3. Chris Pronger, ANA 608 (6-25-55-28-14)
4. Dan Boyle, T.B. 219 (1-5-21-19-12)
5. Kimmo Timonen, NSH 144 (0-2-9-24-13)
6. Dion Phaneuf, CGY 98 (0-1-6-17-10)
7. Sergei Gonchar, PIT 85 (1-1-6-8-14)
8. Sheldon Souray, MTL 67 (1-0-5-7-11)
9. Sergei Zubov, DAL 42 (0-0-4-5-7)
10. Brian Campbell, BUF 42 (0-0-3-4-15)
11. Jay Bouwmeester, FLA 32 (0-0-2-5-7)
12. Philippe Boucher, DAL 27 (1-1-1-0-5)
13. Ryan Whitney, PIT 20 (0-0-0-5-5)
14. Brian Rafalski, N.J. 18 (0-0-1-2-7)
15. Tom Preissing, OTT 15 (0-0-1-3-1)
16. Lubomir Visnovsky, L.A. 12 (0-1-0-0-5)
17. Tomas Kaberle, TOR 12 (0-0-0-3-3)
18. Chris Phillips, OTT 7 (0-1-0-0-0)
19. Keith Carney, MIN 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
20. Zdeno Chara, BOS 4 (0-0-0-1-1)
21. Mathieu Schneider, DET 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Robyn Regehr, CGY 3 (0-0-0-1-0)

Age 37 Zubov is tied for 17th overall with 10 Canadians in the top 16 (so tied for 11th overall among all Canadians)

NORRIS: Pts. (1 st-2nd-3rd-4th-5th)
1. Nicklas Lidstrom, DET 1313 (127-5-1-1-0)
2. Dion Phaneuf, CGY 561 (2-38-37-26-12)
3. Zdeno Chara, BOS 486 (3-38-23-21-12)
4. Sergei Gonchar, PIT 370 (1-24-21-21-24)
5. Brian Campbell, S.J. 333 (1-18-16-31-24)
6. Andrei Markov, MTL 156 (0-4-15-11-20)
7. Mike Green, WSH 84 (0-1-7-10-12)
8. Chris Pronger, ANA 56 (0-2-5-5-2)
9. Brian Rafalski, DET 25 (0-1-1-2-7)
10. Scott Niedermayer, ANA 22 (0-2-1-1-0)
11. Duncan Keith, CHI 19 (0-0-2-0-9)
12. Brent Burns, MIN 14 (0-0-2-1-1)
13. Mark Streit, MTL 11 (0-1-0-1-1)
14. Mathieu Schneider, ANA 9 (0-0-1-1-1)
15. Ed Jovanovski, PHX 8 (0-0-1-1-0)
16. Wade Redden, OTT 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
17. Joe Corvo, CAR 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Jassen Cullimore, FLA 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Tomas Kaberle, TOR 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Mike Komisarek, MTL 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
John-Michael Liles, COL 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Andrej Meszaros, OTT 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Kimmo Timonen, PHI 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Shea Weber, NSH 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Seraei Zubov, DAL 1 (0-0-0-0-1)

Given that the year after Tremblay left the Habs, 3 of their Dmen finished in the top 6 in Norris voting (none of those 3 were in the top 11 in Norris voting the eyar previous when Tremblay was 5th but Lapointe was 12th in all star voting for what it is worth.

The Habswon a SC, after the previous year's first round exit, as well.

It's hard to say what would have happened had JC stayed in Montreal, maybe he has another good year left in him, maybe he gets traded to the California Golden Seals.

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05-28-2014, 07:37 PM
  #90
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Not correct
And you are basing that on what exactly?

I know it's going to be an subjective argument here on both sides but we have a lot of information on how valuable Zubov was to 3 different teams in the playoffs over his career.

And like I stated in my last post the Habs won a SC the year after JC left, okay a lot of that has to do with Dryden but they didn't skip a beat, the dynasty was more beneficial to Tremblay than the other way around.

We have more detailed stats from 99 on wards so I'll just put that up for Zubov here, aged 28-37 he plays in 90 games and averages 28:58 MPG and has a line of 90-11-49-60, good for 5th overall in that time period (2 Canadians have more points in Pronger and Nieds).

I'm not really sure what the argument for Tremblay is going to be as his NHL playoff resume is up until the age of 33 and yes you state that he is the #1 Dman on that dynasty (probably more to Laperriere and his injuries and ironically Jacques has a better Norris voting record than Tremblay does).

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05-28-2014, 08:15 PM
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Him and a bunch of other defensive defensemen. With Lowe I could see it happening via a push from the old boys network on the HOF committee and some kind of "6 Cups" excuse. But there's a collection of really good defensemen from the late 80s onward who aren't going to get a sniff of the HOF based on current standards, despite being clearly better than some defensemen (*cough*LeoBoivin*cough*) who are already enshrined. Besides Lowe and Foote, Derian Hatcher (who's name has come up in related to Zubov) and Ulf Samuelsson are two who come to mind.
Man, that's starting to get muddy. Lowe, Foote and Hatcher are ones that you can build some semblance of a case for in the way of saying "See look at this". But then the negative side and the insane standards for the defensemen get in the way and you realize that they'd be at best controversial. Then we go a notch below them and it's Ulfie.........(shudder). If that ever happened you would be able to hear the city of Boston collapse.

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05-28-2014, 08:25 PM
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Was Zubov any better than Schneider?

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05-28-2014, 08:28 PM
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Was Zubov any better than Schneider?
i don't think zubov should be a hall of famer, but he was much better than schneider. i think it's desjardins you want to compare zubov to, among his sub-HHOF-worthy contemporaries.

on the flipside, if there's one guy in the hall of fame you can point to and ask: was he really better than zubov? it's larry murphy. but then murphy played 500 more games.

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05-28-2014, 08:37 PM
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Man, that's starting to get muddy. Lowe, Foote and Hatcher are ones that you can build some semblance of a case for in the way of saying "See look at this". But then the negative side and the insane standards for the defensemen get in the way and you realize that they'd be at best controversial. Then we go a notch below them and it's Ulfie.........(shudder). If that ever happened you would be able to hear the city of Boston collapse.
if they ever go with a non-langway-level defensive guy, i'd invoke the bob gainey rule. you can only have one (sorry craig ramsay). that way you don't have the sliding-scale problem of opening the door for kevin lowe, who then opens the door for ken morrow, who then...

of those guys at the top of the list -- and i'd add mccrimmon to the discussion before ulfie -- seems like hatcher is the best of the bunch. basically, the defining stay-at-home defenseman of an era defined by staying at home. foote always seemed to me like the slightly, but definably, lesser version of hatcher.

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05-28-2014, 09:24 PM
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People keep saying this but what exactly is the rationale behind it.

Let's look at his career, no voting at all up until the age of 26 when he places 11th (or just above the middle mark for full time Dmen in the 6 team NHL all Canadian league)

63-64 he doesn't show up in voting at age 25 and 16 dmen do

NORRIS: (324/324, 162-162)
1. Pierre Pilote, Chi 138 (72-66)
2. Tim Horton, Tor 70 (43-27)
3. Elmer Vasko, Chi 28 (21-7)
4. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 25 (6-19)
T5. Terry Harper, Mtl 13 (1-12)
T5. Harry Howell, NYR 13 (1-12)
T7. Bob Baun, Tor 9 (7-2)
T7. Doug Barkley, Det 9 (2-7)
9. Carl Brewer, Tor 4 (4-0)
T10. Al MacNeil, Chi 3 (3-0)
T10. Doug Mohns, Bos 3 (0-3)
T10. Allan Stanley, Tor 3 (0-3)
T10. Marcel Pronovost, Det 3 (0-3)
T14. Bill Gadsby, Det 1 (1-0)
T14. Tom Johnson, Bos 1 (1-0)
T14. Leo Boivin, Bos 1 (0-1)

64-65, age 26 he finishes 10th tied with 2 other Dmen

NORRIS: (324/324, 162-162)
1. Pierre Pilote, Chi 93 (32-61)
2. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 78 (55-23)
3. Bill Gadsby, Det 40 (18-22)
4. Tim Horton, Tor 27 (15-12)
5. Marcel Pronovost, Det 20 (0-20)
6. Carl Brewer, TOR 19 (14-5)
7. Ted Green, BOS 17 (13-4)
8. Bob Baun, TOR 15 (5-10)
9. Harry Howell, NYR 12 (8-4)
T10. Doug Barkley, DET 1 (0-1)
T10. Elmer Vasko, CHI 1 (1-0)
T10. J.C. Tremblay, MTL 1 (1-0)

65-66 he is 4th

NORRIS: (324/324, 162-162)
1. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 89 (62-27)
2. Pierre Pilote, Chi 54 (42-12)
3. Pat Stapleton, Chi 40 (0-40)
4. J.C. Tremblay, Mtl 32 (0-32)
5. Doug Barkley, Det 30 (30-0)
6. Harry Howell, NYR 28 (9-19)
7. Allan Stanley, Tor 23 (2-21)
8. Matt Ravlich, Chi 6 (6-0)
T9. Tim Horton, Tor 5 (4-1)
T9. Terry Harper, Mtl 5 (0-5)
T11. Marcel Pronovost, Tor 4 (3-1)
T11. Bill Gadsby, Det 4 (0-4)
13. Ted Green, Bos 3 (3-0)
14. Jean-Guy Talbot, Mtl 1 (1-0)

66-67 he is 5th

NORRIS: (324/324, 162-162)
1. Harry Howell, NYR 113 (79-34)
2. Pierre Pilote, Chi 95 (32-63)
3. Bobby Orr, Bos 36 (10-26)
4. Tim Horton, Tor 34 (19-15)
5. J.C. Tremblay, Mtl 18 (9-9)
6. Gary Bergman, Det 8 (0-8)
7. Doug Jarrett, Chi 7 (0-7)
T8. Terry Harper, Mtl 5 (5-0)
T8. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 5 (5-0)
T10. Ted Green, Bos 1 (1-0)
T10. Leo Boivin, Det 1 (1-0)
T10. Arnie Brown, NYR 1 (1-0)

67-68 he is 2nd his highest ever rating finishing behind a rookie Bobby Orr who only played in 46 of his teams 74 games and this is still well before the "elite" Bobby Orr

NORRIS: (216/216, 108-108)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 68 (56-12)
2. J.C. Tremblay, Mtl 31 (5-26)
3. Tim Horton, Tor 30 (22-8)
4. Jim Neilson, NYR 26 (0-26)
5. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 15 (3-12)
6. Pierre Pilote, Chi 11 (11-0)
7. Bill White, LA 9 (1-8)
8. Mike McMahon, Min 8 (0-8)
9. Ted Green, Bos 6 (0-6)
10. Harry Howell, NYR 5 (3-2)
11. Gary Bergman, Det 4 (4-0)
T12. Pat Stapleton, Chi 1 (1-0)
T12. Ed Van Impe, Phi 1 (1-0)
T12. Kent Douglas, Oak-Det 1 (1-0)

68-69 he is 8th in voting sure it's a 12 team league now but 7 of the top 8 norris guys are from the original 6, so still a definite advantage for JC

NORRIS: (324/324)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 176
2. Tim Horton, Tor 48
3. Ted Green, Bos 27
4. Ted Harris, Mtl 22
5. Al Arbour, St. L 17
6. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 9
7. Jim Nielson, NYR 7
8. J.C. Tremblay, Mtl 5
9. Bill White, LA 4
T10. Pat Stapleton, Chi 3
T10. Bob Baun, Det 3
12. Carol Vadnais, Oak 2
13. Doug Harvey, StL 1

69-70 he doesn't figure in the voting playing in only 58 games but if bobby can be first in 46 games at the age of 19, you would think JC could break top 11 in 53 games if he was really that great right?

NORRIS: (319/324)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 180
2. Brad Park, NYR 58
3. Carl Brewer, Det 22
4. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 18
5. Jim Neilson, NYR 11
6. Al Arbour, StL 9
7. Pat Stapleton, Chi 8
T8. Wayne Connelly, Det 3
T8. Keith Magnuson, Chi 3
T8. Doug Mohns, Chi 3
T11. Doug Jarrett, Chi 2
T11. Barclay Plager, StL 2

70-71 he is 3rd but people readily admit the drop off after Orr and Park is simply huge at this point

NORRIS: (378/378)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 208
2. Brad Park, NYR 57
3. J.C. Tremblay, Mtl 35
4. Pat Stapleton, Chi 23
T5. Bob Baun, Tor 10
T5. Keith Magnuson, Chi 10
7. Bill White, Chi 9
T8. Dallas Smith, Bos 6
T8. Jim Neilson, NYR 6
10. Rod Seiling, NYR 5
11. Ted Harris, Min 4
12. Tim Horton, NYR 3
T13. Jim Roberts, StL 1
T13. Don Awrey, Bos 1

71-72 He is a dsitant 5th with the 4th place guy gettign double the votes

NORRIS: (378/378)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 204
2. Brad Park, NYR 117
3. Bill White, Chi 25
4. Pat Stapleton, Chi 16
5. J.C. Tremblay, Mtl 8
6. Dallas Smith, Bos 3
T7. Barclay Plager, StL 1
T7. Gary Bergman, Det 1
T7. Gilles Marotte, LA 1
T7. Rod Seiling, NYR 1
T7. Ted Harris, Min 1

72-73 JC was in the WHA and the Habs don't skip a beat with 3 Dmen in the top 6 of Norris voting

NORRIS: (432/432)
1. Bobby Orr, Bos 224
2. Guy Lapointe, Mtl 58
T3. Bill White, Chi 36
T3. Brad Park, NYR 36
5. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 25
6. Serge Savard, Mtl 22
7. Rod Seiling, NYR 11
8. Dave Burrows, Pit 6
T9. Tim Horton, Buf 4
T9. Terry Harper, LA 4
T11. Gary Bergman, Det 2
T11. Larry Hillman, Buf 2
T13. Pat Stapleton, Chi 1
T13. Barclay Plager, StL 1

Sure JC lights it up for the Nords team in the WHA that year at age 34 but the quality of Dmen in the WHA is extremely low and Tremblay is getting his votes by passing the puck to a high flying offense and those Nords finished 11 out of 12 WHA teams in GA, JC certainly wasn't a tower of defense on the back end was he?

I think the Norris voters and his finishes is why he is not in the HHOF
These are truly impressive #s. HOF worthy.

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05-28-2014, 09:32 PM
  #96
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i don't think zubov should be a hall of famer, but he was much better than schneider. i think it's desjardins you want to compare zubov to, among his sub-HHOF-worthy contemporaries.

on the flipside, if there's one guy in the hall of fame you can point to and ask: was he really better than zubov? it's larry murphy. but then murphy played 500 more games.
I agree but Zubov was better than Eric also.

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05-29-2014, 08:51 AM
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Okay, there is no way that Kevin Lowe or (based on less time spent watching him) Phil Housley are Hall of Fame-worthy.

I watched Kevin Lowe play -- regularly -- for about 12 or 13 years. The way I see it: He was an above-average defenceman (never a great one) from about 1981 to 1987. Around 1988/1989 or so, he suddenly lost it and became a below-average defenceman. By the time he left Edmonton, he was the weak-point on a bad team. He was a journeyman with the Rangers, never standing out in any way and was far too slow and small to handle 90s' power-forwards.

I confess to not being as familiar with Housley but I did see him play fairly often in his prime years. The record shows that he was top 10 in Norris-voting six times in his career (from '83-84 to '98-99!), which is not bad, but not enough. He was only higher than fifth in voting once. For 17 seasons, he wasn't even a top-10 defenceman. That isn't good enough. I personally thought Housley was one of the worst defensive players I've seen.

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05-29-2014, 09:20 AM
  #98
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And you are basing that on what exactly?
From the HOH defensemen project: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=200

Tremblay's playoff scoring during the Canadiens dynasty: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...5&postcount=53

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05-29-2014, 11:01 AM
  #99
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I confess to not being as familiar with Housley but I did see him play fairly often in his prime years. The record shows that he was top 10 in Norris-voting six times in his career (from '83-84 to '98-99!), which is not bad, but not enough. He was only higher than fifth in voting once. For 17 seasons, he wasn't even a top-10 defenceman. That isn't good enough. I personally thought Housley was one of the worst defensive players I've seen.
Lots of forwards are in the Hall of Fame without ever having come close to winning an individual award...

Why are D-men held to a higher standard?

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05-29-2014, 11:03 AM
  #100
vadim sharifijanov
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Lots of forwards are in the Hall of Fame without ever having come close to winning an individual award...

Why are D-men held to a higher standard?
or ask the complementary question: why aren't forwards held to a higher standard?

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