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Hall of Fame Snubs: Defensemen Edition

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Old
05-29-2014, 11:39 AM
  #101
Hardyvan123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I know how he was treated in the Dman project and frankly quotes from people who only throw out "mom I love you son, type of accolades muddy the picture.

this is an example

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Fischer
During his time, there was nobody better, in terms of taking care of business in his own end of the ice.
Well if that really was the case you think he would have a Norris or 3, as Orr didn't enter the league until he was 29 and Park a few years later.

Quote:
Tremblay's playoff scoring during the Canadiens dynasty: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...5&postcount=53

Part of Zubov's advantage over JC is that he was a very good to excellent performer over a very long period of time, greater than JC.

Here is how he ranks in playoff scoring against his peers over 3 teams

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

You can see that he is 8th (once again only 2 canadian players are ahead of him) and the 2nd best Dman behind Lidstrom and the best Canadian scoring Dman over that is Pronger.

We see that JC is 11th overall in his NHL career and the 2nd best Dman between Orr and Pilote who both played in significantly less games.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

the thing is with Zubov it's hard to see the forest through the trees or put another way, in his time period it's hard to see actually how dominant non Canadian guys clouded the landscape of an NHL that had always been previously a Canadian only league.

I get it why some might prefer JC over Zubov, especially if they didn't see both guys play live, but to say that JC has a clearer case or that he is definitely the biggest snub, over guys like Blake and Zubov for example really doesn't have a very solid supporting argument, other than glowing quotes with little or no context of the differences in time and era.

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05-29-2014, 11:53 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Copmuters View Post
Was Zubov any better than Schneider?
Schneider, if anything, is Lubomir Visnovsky's territory. Maybe a little better, but closer to Visnovsky than Zubov. My two cents.

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05-29-2014, 12:02 PM
  #103
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I'm glad to see so much Zubov love here. He was always one of my favourites growing up.

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05-30-2014, 11:16 AM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I know how he was treated in the Dman project and frankly quotes from people who only throw out "mom I love you son, type of accolades muddy the picture.

this is an example



Well if that really was the case you think he would have a Norris or 3, as Orr didn't enter the league until he was 29 and Park a few years later.




Part of Zubov's advantage over JC is that he was a very good to excellent performer over a very long period of time, greater than JC.

Here is how he ranks in playoff scoring against his peers over 3 teams

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

You can see that he is 8th (once again only 2 canadian players are ahead of him) and the 2nd best Dman behind Lidstrom and the best Canadian scoring Dman over that is Pronger.

We see that JC is 11th overall in his NHL career and the 2nd best Dman between Orr and Pilote who both played in significantly less games.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

the thing is with Zubov it's hard to see the forest through the trees or put another way, in his time period it's hard to see actually how dominant non Canadian guys clouded the landscape of an NHL that had always been previously a Canadian only league.

I get it why some might prefer JC over Zubov, especially if they didn't see both guys play live, but to say that JC has a clearer case or that he is definitely the biggest snub, over guys like Blake and Zubov for example really doesn't have a very solid supporting argument, other than glowing quotes with little or no context of the differences in time and era.
Do you disagree with Sturminator's conclusion that "J.C. Tremblay was quite clearly the dominant postseason defenseman of his era, and quite possibly the single best postseason player of his era, as well?"

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05-30-2014, 01:45 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Do you disagree with Sturminator's conclusion that "J.C. Tremblay was quite clearly the dominant postseason defenseman of his era, and quite possibly the single best postseason player of his era, as well?"
Yes I would but to be fair to Struminator there are 2 points here

1) Bobby Orr

2) I think he is defining Tremblay's era as 65-72 (which is his peak playoff time and there are some other factors going on here as well.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Here is how he ranks in his era as a full time player from 62-72.

As a Dman he is below Orr, and Pilote seems to have the same impact in terms of PPG, JC has the benefit of playing on much deeper teams, while 2 of Pilot's Hawk team mates are certainly much better in the playoffs than Trembley was IMO.

While Laperriere missed some games in the playoffs over that time he was an extremely important piece of those Habs teams as well (and has a better Norris record when healthy as well), while

I also have to wonder, since the comparison to Laperriere has been cited several times and how the Habs fared without him and then without JC, how is it that the year after JC leaves that 3 Habs Dmen make the top 6 in Norris voting and the Habs win the SC, despite losing JC and a first round exit the year before.

3 sometimes team mates of JC are ahead of him in the playoff scoring (listed above) and 2 other significant guys in the "little rocket" and the "roadrunner" are behind him.

Yes a Habs Dman did win the Conn Smythe while JC was in his prime but it was Savard, not JC.

Another team mate won one as well and that was Dryden in net.

I was too young to see JC play, but there is strong indications that he was extremely fortunate in his circumstances with relative good health (to him) and not such good health to Savard and Laperriere and he took a long time to even get noticed in a 6 team NHL (until he was 26) in a time period early to mid 60's that was hardly the zenith of depth of "great Dmen"

I do agree though that it is weird that he isn't in the HHOF as the voters there seem to really value being on SC teams probably more than individual achievement.

But his Norris voting record isn't as good as Zubov or Blake in terms of overall longevity and also in terms of competition either IMO.

Like I stated earlier I can see a case for all 3 guys but to state that JC clearly has a better case overall (or in the playoffs compared to Zubov,) just isn't there when one looks at it in detail.

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05-30-2014, 01:52 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Yes I would but to be fair to Struminator there are 2 points here

1) Bobby Orr

2) I think he is defining Tremblay's era as 65-72 (which is his peak playoff time and there are some other factors going on here as well.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Here is how he ranks in his era as a full time player from 62-72.

As a Dman he is below Orr, and Pilote seems to have the same impact in terms of PPG, JC has the benefit of playing on much deeper teams, while 2 of Pilot's Hawk team mates are certainly much better in the playoffs than Trembley was IMO.

While Laperriere missed some games in the playoffs over that time he was an extremely important piece of those Habs teams as well (and has a better Norris record when healthy as well), while

I also have to wonder, since the comparison to Laperriere has been cited several times and how the Habs fared without him and then without JC, how is it that the year after JC leaves that 3 Habs Dmen make the top 6 in Norris voting and the Habs win the SC, despite losing JC and a first round exit the year before.

3 sometimes team mates of JC are ahead of him in the playoff scoring (listed above) and 2 other significant guys in the "little rocket" and the "roadrunner" are behind him.

Yes a Habs Dman did win the Conn Smythe while JC was in his prime but it was Savard, not JC.

Another team mate won one as well and that was Dryden in net.

I was too young to see JC play, but there is strong indications that he was extremely fortunate in his circumstances with relative good health (to him) and not such good health to Savard and Laperriere and he took a long time to even get noticed in a 6 team NHL (until he was 26) in a time period early to mid 60's that was hardly the zenith of depth of "great Dmen"

I do agree though that it is weird that he isn't in the HHOF as the voters there seem to really value being on SC teams probably more than individual achievement.

But his Norris voting record isn't as good as Zubov or Blake in terms of overall longevity and also in terms of competition either IMO.

Like I stated earlier I can see a case for all 3 guys but to state that JC clearly has a better case overall (or in the playoffs compared to Zubov,) just isn't there when one looks at it in detail.
Meh, if you want to define Bobby Orr as being from the same era as J.C. Tremblay, then Tremblay obviously wasn't the best playoff defenseman of his era. But:

1) I think Orr's era came a little bit later.
2) More importantly, being behind only Bobby Orr in his era would still have Tremblay comfortably ahead of Zubov. Zubov was a good playoff player himself, perhaps a great one, but I don't think many people thinks of him as a playoff legend the likes of Stevens or Niedermayer or Lidstrom or Pronger.

As for the Conn Smythe, apparently it was quite controversial when Roger Crozier won it in a losing cause in 1966 over Tremblay (who led the Cup winners in playoff scoring, despite being a defenseman: http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1966.html)

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05-30-2014, 07:42 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Do you disagree with Sturminator's conclusion that "J.C. Tremblay was quite clearly the dominant postseason defenseman of his era, and quite possibly the single best postseason player of his era, as well?"
Not to nitpick or nothing, but wouldn't it still be Beliveau who was considered the premier playoff performer during this time 1965-72? But I agree, J.C. is awfully close to the best of this era. I would personally put him 2nd after Beliveau.

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05-30-2014, 07:48 PM
  #108
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Meh, if you want to define Bobby Orr as being from the same era as J.C. Tremblay, then Tremblay obviously wasn't the best playoff defenseman of his era. But:

1) I think Orr's era came a little bit later.
2) More importantly, being behind only Bobby Orr in his era would still have Tremblay comfortably ahead of Zubov.
I'm not really sure what that means, every dman would ahve a tough case agasint the elgedn of Orr, but sowem would actually stand up okay in the playoffs, that being said waht exactly is the rest of the feild like? no one here is saying that Zubov was the ebst overall playoff performer among Dmen over the longer time epriod he played in, jsut that his resume stacks up very well.

Quote:
Zubov was a good playoff player himself, perhaps a great one, but I don't think many people thinks of him as a playoff legend the likes of Stevens or Niedermayer or Lidstrom or Pronger.
That's the thing for an older player, and a guy from the original 6 there isn't a legend about JC in the playoffs or regular season.

the legend thing is over rated as well as we will see down below.

Quote:
As for the Conn Smythe, apparently it was quite controversial when Roger Crozier won it in a losing cause in 1966 over Tremblay (who led the Cup winners in playoff scoring, despite being a defenseman: http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1966.html)
yes one can make the argument that JC deserved the Smythe that year but he was simply on a stacked teams, notice 11 players produce at a .5 PPG rate for those Habs over 10 games, their goalie averages less than 2 GPG against.

Then there is the whole thing of that Habs team finishing first overall despite their top 2 Dmen playing in ( JC)59 and (Jacques)57 games.

JC is a distant 4th in Norris voting as well, although he did miss the playoffs, while JC was 4th in Norris voting (4 Hab Dmen received votes BTW)

NORRIS: (324/324, 162-162)
1. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl 89 (62-27)
2. Pierre Pilote, Chi 54 (42-12)
3. Pat Stapleton, Chi 40 (0-40)
4. J.C. Tremblay, Mtl 32 (0-32)
5. Doug Barkley, Det 30 (30-0)
6. Harry Howell, NYR 28 (9-19)
7. Allan Stanley, Tor 23 (2-21)
8. Matt Ravlich, Chi 6 (6-0)
T9. Tim Horton, Tor 5 (4-1)
T9. Terry Harper, Mtl 5 (0-5)
T11. Marcel Pronovost, Tor 4 (3-1)
T11. Bill Gadsby, Det 4 (0-4)
13. Ted Green, Bos 3 (3-0)
14. Jean-Guy Talbot, Mtl 1 (1-0)

Hart voting was broken down like this in the same year

1965-66
HART: (324/324, 162-162)
1. Bobby Hull, Chi LW 145 (79-66)
2. Jean Beliveau, Mtl C 59 (3-56)
3. Gordie Howe, Det RW 24 (13-11)
4. Glenn Hall, Chi G 21 (21-0)
5. Norm Ullman, Det C 14 (14-0)
6. Bob Pulford, Tor C 10 (10-0)
7. Roger Crozier, Det G 8 (8-0)
8. Gump Worsley, Mtl G 7 (0-7)
T9. Doug Barkley, Det D 6 (1-5)
T9. Stan Mikita, Chi C 6 (0-6)
T11. Bob Nevin, NYR RW 5 (4-1)
T11. Frank Mahovlich, Tor LW 5 (0-5)
T13. Jacques Laperriere, Mtl D 3 (3-0)
T13. Henri Richard, Mtl C 3 (3-0)
T13. Pat Stapleton, Chi D 3 (0-3)
16. Bobby Rousseau, Mtl RW 2 (2-0)
T17. Harry Howell, NYR D 1 (1-0)
T17. J.C. Tremblay, Mtl D 1 (0-1)
T17. Johnny Bower, Tor G 1 (0-1)


Had he won a Conn Smythe that year no doubt it would be a feather in his cap but seriously that Habs team won without the Norris guy in Jaqcues, that's how deep of a team they were that year.

Legends like Lidstrom, Pronger Nieds and Lidstrom in the playoffs certainly is a bar that JC doesn't stack up any better than Zubov does.

Heck there can even be an argument made for Zubov deserving a Norris in 06 and sure JC would have won one if Orr hadn't played in exactly 46 of 74 games that year.

And let's not get confused here Bobby Orr that year had a 46-11-20-31 line good for 11th on his Bruins, this wasn't the Bobby Orr that would break out the next year and beyond.

JC, like Zubov in a way, fits the description of a player who benefited more from his teams than his teams collapsing when he wasn't there.

We have the example above of how well the Habs did without the Norris winner in the playoffs.

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05-30-2014, 07:53 PM
  #109
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Not to nitpick or nothing, but wouldn't it still be Beliveau who was considered the premier playoff performer during this time 1965-72? But I agree, J.C. is awfully close to the best of this era. I would personally put him 2nd after Beliveau.
2nd even over Hull or Orr or heck even Stan Mikita?

A lot of his "dominance" has to do with the good fortune of playing on such a stacked and blanced team over that time and staying healthy as well.

JC Tremblay 58 in 79
Bobby Orr 42 in 35
Pat Stapleton 28 in 41
Jacques Laperriere 24 in 62
Pierre Pilote 20 in 39

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05-30-2014, 10:39 PM
  #110
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2nd even over Hull or Orr or heck even Stan Mikita?

A lot of his "dominance" has to do with the good fortune of playing on such a stacked and blanced team over that time and staying healthy as well.

JC Tremblay 58 in 79
Bobby Orr 42 in 35
Pat Stapleton 28 in 41
Jacques Laperriere 24 in 62
Pierre Pilote 20 in 39
Why wouldn't it still be Beliveau? 5 Cups during that time. Captained them too. Won a Conn Smythe during this time. Not to mention was brilliant during that Smythe run in 1965. He was always in the mix for the most important Hab. Even up until his retirement in 1971 he was still extremely important. 22 points that year. He was on some great teams, but he was the leader on those teams and he made that dynasty more than anyone else I think. So yeah, I'll still say Beliveau. But for defensemen it's between Tremblay and Orr.

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05-30-2014, 11:12 PM
  #111
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Why wouldn't it still be Beliveau? 5 Cups during that time. Captained them too. Won a Conn Smythe during this time. Not to mention was brilliant during that Smythe run in 1965. He was always in the mix for the most important Hab. Even up until his retirement in 1971 he was still extremely important. 22 points that year. He was on some great teams, but he was the leader on those teams and he made that dynasty more than anyone else I think. So yeah, I'll still say Beliveau. But for defensemen it's between Tremblay and Orr.
Sorry I was unclear i fully agree that's it's Jean as #1 over that time period, the other guys listed could easily be #2 instead of JC.

Once again over that time period, which is already a huge advantage for JC because he clearly wasn't the same player earlier in his career so it's one peak playoff metric, compered to a career playoff metric.

the competition among Dmen simply isn't tehre for JC, besdies Orr who is better for 2 reasons.

1) JC had the benefit of playing on a dynasty so his number of games is an incredible advantage.

2) simply not every team had an offensive Dman as the position was dramatically changed by Orr when he arrived.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

I went over this before yet people want to only look at partial careers here is JC from 62-72 his prime NHL years and career

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

He is 8th, still 1 point behind Orr despite playing in over double the games.

Here is Zubov

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

8th overall but notice all those non Canadian guys ahead of him and only 2 Canadian players ahead of him.

As well he only played with Modano and Jagr for part of that time.


5 of the guys ahead of zubov were direct competition for the Dallas team playing in the same conference.

Again for JC, he played the entire time with the #3 scorer in Jean and partial time with the #5,6,10,11 and 15 scorers.

The notion that JC clearly has a better playoff resume or was more impactfull simply isn't backed by the supporting statistics, it's more of a case of going to a really stacked team in a much smaller league, thus the dynasty along with much less competition overall both in the regular season and playoffs.

Note along with Jagr and Modano he played with Mario, who for some reasons didn't show up in that search, no idea why.

He played just one playoff season with both guys (Jagr and Mario) and actually led those Pens in plus/minus that year with a plus 9 in the playoffs.

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11-01-2014, 04:41 AM
  #112
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Housley scored 31 goals as a 19 year old

Has any other teenage D-man ever scored 20 in a season?

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11-01-2014, 10:02 AM
  #113
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Housley scored 31 goals as a 19 year old

Has any other teenage D-man ever scored 20 in a season?
Housley scored 7 of those 31 goals while playing forward.

http://www.hockeydraftcentral.com/1982/82006.html

He still scored 24 goals as a defenceman. Yes, he's the only teenage defenceman to score 20. Ray Bourque was the next closest, with 17 goals scored in his age 19 season.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...order_by=goals

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11-01-2014, 10:13 AM
  #114
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Schneider, if anything, is Lubomir Visnovsky's territory. Maybe a little better, but closer to Visnovsky than Zubov. My two cents.
i'd say visnovsky was a generally good offensive d-man with one spike year. comparable to yandle today, or maybe guys like james patrick or bryan mccabe or ron greschner or craig hartsburg or kevin hatcher.

schneider is more of a consistently very good offensive d-man, who played at that level for a long time. like campbell or boyle today, or guys like babych, reed larson, the late carol vadnais. not guys you'd ever make a norris case for, but in their primes consistently in the conversation for fringe top ten offensive d-men in the league.

zubov is HOVG. probably just as much separation between zubov and schneider as there is between schneider and viz. his peers would be doug wilson and gary suter, though i think suter is like a somewhat poor man's wilson/zubov. to be honest, i'm more apt to lump larry murphy in as one of these guys, but with a elite level of consistent VG-ness, than in a higher tier than them (which would be solely due to consistency and longevity). in that sense, i think of murphy as the mike gartner of HOVG d-men, except obviously with a winning pedigree.

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11-01-2014, 10:18 AM
  #115
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J.C.Tremblay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Yes I would but to be fair to Struminator there are 2 points here

1) Bobby Orr

2) I think he is defining Tremblay's era as 65-72 (which is his peak playoff time and there are some other factors going on here as well.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Here is how he ranks in his era as a full time player from 62-72.

As a Dman he is below Orr, and Pilote seems to have the same impact in terms of PPG, JC has the benefit of playing on much deeper teams, while 2 of Pilot's Hawk team mates are certainly much better in the playoffs than Trembley was IMO.

While Laperriere missed some games in the playoffs over that time he was an extremely important piece of those Habs teams as well (and has a better Norris record when healthy as well), while

I also have to wonder, since the comparison to Laperriere has been cited several times and how the Habs fared without him and then without JC, how is it that the year after JC leaves that 3 Habs Dmen make the top 6 in Norris voting and the Habs win the SC, despite losing JC and a first round exit the year before.

3 sometimes team mates of JC are ahead of him in the playoff scoring (listed above) and 2 other significant guys in the "little rocket" and the "roadrunner" are behind him.

Yes a Habs Dman did win the Conn Smythe while JC was in his prime but it was Savard, not JC.

Another team mate won one as well and that was Dryden in net.

I was too young to see JC play, but there is strong indications that he was extremely fortunate in his circumstances with relative good health (to him) and not such good health to Savard and Laperriere and he took a long time to even get noticed in a 6 team NHL (until he was 26) in a time period early to mid 60's that was hardly the zenith of depth of "great Dmen"

I do agree though that it is weird that he isn't in the HHOF as the voters there seem to really value being on SC teams probably more than individual achievement.

But his Norris voting record isn't as good as Zubov or Blake in terms of overall longevity and also in terms of competition either IMO.

Like I stated earlier I can see a case for all 3 guys but to state that JC clearly has a better case overall (or in the playoffs compared to Zubov,) just isn't there when one looks at it in detail.
Overlooking the fact that J.C. Tremblay was a forward - center thru junior and learned defence in the pros - old EPHL and the NHL so it took a while just like it took Mark Howe another player who converted to the blue line.

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11-01-2014, 10:29 AM
  #116
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Not to nitpick or nothing, but wouldn't it still be Beliveau who was considered the premier playoff performer during this time 1965-72? But I agree, J.C. is awfully close to the best of this era. I would personally put him 2nd after Beliveau.
Since when was Beliveau a defenseman?

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11-01-2014, 04:29 PM
  #117
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Since when was Beliveau a defenseman?
He wasn't.

It was in response to which player during J-C Tremblay's time was the most important in the postseason. I picked Beliveau but the question was more or less along the lines of which defenseman was more important. It basically came down to Tremblay or Orr, which I agree it is between them.

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