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Kypreos: OTT shopping Spezza to the West Part II

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Old
05-16-2014, 10:33 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Benny FTW View Post
I'd give up Da Costa + Wiercioch for Forsberg easily.
Wiercioch has size, skill and hockey sense that you can't teach. He could easily anchor a 2nd pair in the future. Da Costa has looked good at all levels and should fit in nicely on an NHL team's 2nd or 3rd line.

Forsberg has more top end potential, but those two are NHLers, and Forsberg is not yet. I see where you're coming from but I like Wiercioch a lot and I think it's a mistake to let him go so early.

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05-16-2014, 10:36 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
Wiercioch has size, skill and hockey sense that you can't teach. He could easily anchor a 2nd pair in the future. Da Costa has looked good at all levels and should fit in nicely on an NHL team's 2nd or 3rd line.

Forsberg has more top end potential, but those two are NHLers, and Forsberg is not yet. I see where you're coming from but I like Wiercioch a lot and I think it's a mistake to let him go so early.
c'mon man. don't be silly. Ottawa would easily make that deal. Nashville wouldn't.

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05-16-2014, 10:39 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by nilssont View Post
For one year of Spezza?
+ an edge on other teams to negotiate a new contract.

Forsberg got Erat if a recall correctly. Spezza >>> Erat. Forsberg is a very solid prospect, but not elite and very far from a slam dunk for sure 1st line player.

Same with 11th overall. Who will you get with that pick, Duncan Siemens? The perceived value these picks and prospects have is ridiculous. Yes, one year of Spezza is worth that

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05-16-2014, 10:40 AM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Dick Whitman View Post
c'mon man. don't be silly. Ottawa would easily make that deal. Nashville wouldn't.
I wouldn't call out any Ottawa fan that would make that deal, but personally I like Wiercioch. That's all. We'll see how Wiercioch develops

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05-16-2014, 10:44 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Dick Whitman View Post
c'mon man. don't be silly. Ottawa would easily make that deal. Nashville wouldn't.
Keep on under rating Spezza. You're telling me we need to add to a number one center so that we can get a good prospect? Some fans are getting brainwashed by all of the undervaluing. Yes, Spezza is a UFA in one year, but we are to assume any trade is contingent on Spezza being willing to resign. When is the last time a number one center became available? Spezza is worth a top 6 player/prospect , a top 4 defenseman/prospect and a first. Enough of this Ryan Ellis stuff, especially having to add to Spezza to get Forsberg. I'm sure if Poile could have Spezza for Ellis+Forsberg he'd do it in a minute. Ellis is a one dimensional defenseman who put up 27 points this year, and Forsberg is a good prospect , but his potential doesn't even come close to the player that Spezza is today.

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05-16-2014, 10:58 AM
  #106
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I have recently come to learn that Berglund, can play left wing. (and looked better there?)

I wouldn't absolutely hate Berglund, Rattie, 2014 1st. (not that I ever said otherwise)

What type of contract do you think Berglund would be in line for?

With more minutes, he could be a 25G scorer, and Ottawa had Rattie ranked fairly high on their draft board in 2011.

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05-16-2014, 11:00 AM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatStateofHockey View Post
Keep on under rating Spezza. You're telling me we need to add to a number one center so that we can get a good prospect? Some fans are getting brainwashed by all of the undervaluing. Yes, Spezza is a UFA in one year, but we are to assume any trade is contingent on Spezza being willing to resign. When is the last time a number one center became available? Spezza is worth a top 6 player/prospect , a top 4 defenseman/prospect and a first. Enough of this Ryan Ellis stuff, especially having to add to Spezza to get Forsberg. I'm sure if Poile could have Spezza for Ellis+Forsberg he'd do it in a minute. Ellis is a one dimensional defenseman who put up 27 points this year, and Forsberg is a good prospect , but his potential doesn't even come close to the player that Spezza is today.
Buddy's post was about not trading Wiercioch and Da Costa to get Forsberg. That is what I was replying to.

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05-16-2014, 11:04 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Dick Whitman View Post
You barely watch him play. You're in no position to talk about his decline. Stick to what you know; stats you can read on hockey reference and capgeek.
Lol, how many times has that guy repeated completely wrong information over the past 1000 posts? 30 times?

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05-16-2014, 11:07 AM
  #109
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Originally Posted by Andre Benoit Bawls View Post
Lol, how many times has that guy repeated completely wrong information over the past 1000 posts? 30 times?
And what was wrong?

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05-16-2014, 11:13 AM
  #110
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MandyAlwaysKnows View Post
+ an edge on other teams to negotiate a new contract.

Forsberg got Erat if a recall correctly. Spezza >>> Erat. Forsberg is a very solid prospect, but not elite and very far from a slam dunk for sure 1st line player.

Same with 11th overall. Who will you get with that pick, Duncan Siemens? The perceived value these picks and prospects have is ridiculous. Yes, one year of Spezza is worth that
Forsberg is doubtful to be moved. Even if we may be looking to add a veteran #1/#2 center, most of our focus is still on putting pieces around the young talent on the roster and in the system for the future. Trading our top prospect is moving the wrong direction and just unnecessarily forcing our window.

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05-16-2014, 11:14 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
And what was wrong?
Do you need it explained to you again that Spezza, other than recovering from an injury, has not declined at all? That he's played some of his best hockey over the past few years? Or will you continue to ignore that and say he's declining based entirely on stats (points) and other equally important stats (age)? Seems you are incredibly concerned with perpetuating that stereotype, you trumpet it even when the Blues arent involved. Is this your crusade? It's funny.

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05-16-2014, 11:30 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Andre Benoit Bawls View Post
Do you need it explained to you again that Spezza, other than recovering from an injury, has not declined at all? That he's played some of his best hockey over the past few years? Or will you continue to ignore that and say he's declining based entirely on stats (points) and other equally important stats (age)? Seems you are incredibly concerned with perpetuating that stereotype, you trumpet it even when the Blues arent involved. Is this your crusade? It's funny.
I'm not saying he's declined, I'm saying he's at the start of it. Players decline past the age of 30, especially when they have a long injury history. He's not going to be the same player that he was in his 20s.

Blues have also been involved in this thread. If you want a thread about Spezza, make one specifically to the Ducks, Preds, etc. and those fans will tell you how off you guys are on his value.

Term is the main reason he has lower value.

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05-16-2014, 11:33 AM
  #113
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
I'm not saying he's declined, I'm saying he's at the start of it. Players decline past the age of 30, especially when they have a long injury history. He's not going to be the same player that he was in his 20s.

Blues have also been involved in this thread. If you want a thread about Spezza, make one specifically to the Ducks, Preds, etc. and those fans will tell you how off you guys are on his value.

Term is the main reason he has lower value.
Where does it say that players automatically decline past the age of 30? Did Joe Thornton? Daniel Alfredsson? Brendan Shanahan? Teemu? You're completely wrong.


Last edited by ThirdManIn: 05-16-2014 at 11:51 AM. Reason: flaming
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05-16-2014, 11:35 AM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Dick Whitman View Post
Where does it say that players automatically decline past the age of 30? Did Joe Thornton? Daniel Alfredsson? Brendan Shanahan? Teemu? You're posting for the sake of posting, I get that, but you're completely wrong and have no idea what you're talking about.
Way more often than not, players decline and that affects trade value. GMs trade for what the player will be over the next few years and that is a major factor that goes into it. You can't use outliers to justify your position.

Here's one of many articles that discusses it, http://www.sbnation.com/nhl/2014/3/1...s-age-analysis

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05-16-2014, 11:35 AM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GreatStateofHockey View Post
Keep on under rating Spezza. You're telling me we need to add to a number one center so that we can get a good prospect? Some fans are getting brainwashed by all of the undervaluing. Yes, Spezza is a UFA in one year, but we are to assume any trade is contingent on Spezza being willing to resign. When is the last time a number one center became available? Spezza is worth a top 6 player/prospect , a top 4 defenseman/prospect and a first. Enough of this Ryan Ellis stuff, especially having to add to Spezza to get Forsberg. I'm sure if Poile could have Spezza for Ellis+Forsberg he'd do it in a minute. Ellis is a one dimensional defenseman who put up 27 points this year, and Forsberg is a good prospect , but his potential doesn't even come close to the player that Spezza is today.
I'm going to go ahead and turn down Spezza for Ellis and Forsberg, and now I'm going to explain why turning down that offer is not, in any way, shape or form, underrating Spezza.

Our defense is set. Ellis may not be a consistent top 4 defenseman, but he brings with him some pretty good skill for a bottom pairing guy and he is a PP specialist. He can also fill in for injury in the top 4. Forsberg is one of our top offensive prospects who is about to play under a coach who has a knack for developing offensively skilled forwards. Trading young pieces for Spezza is not something Nashville needs to be doing right now, especially with no guarantee that he will re-sign with the Preds.

Yes, Erat as a rental returned Forsberg, but if I recall correctly, and I think that I do, the majority of people viewed that as a horribly lopsided trade in Nashville's favor. It isn't really a good one to use for comparison IMO (I believe it was Mandy who brought that trade up).

Spezza has been a great scoring center, and he may have four or five more years as a great scoring center. Nashville is in no position to be trading away young, skilled players. No one has seen what Lavi plans to do in training camp, much less an actual NHL season.

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05-16-2014, 11:38 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
Way more often than not, players decline and that affects trade value. GMs trade for what the player will be over the next few years and that is a major factor that goes into it.
So in one breath you say he has low value because hes an impending UFA, the next he has low value because he's old? What? Anyone who knows Spezza's game knows he will be able to play at a high level for a long time. He's faster and has better hands than Thornton, he has one of the best standing slappers I've seen, there's just no way he becomes a bad player in the next 5 years. In fact, I'd almost guarantee that if he's dealt he will see more success than he has in Ottawa. He's not motivated for us anymore. He needs a change of scenery.

The funny part is no matter what reasons you give for Spezza having low value, there will always be several teams willing to take the risk.


Last edited by ThirdManIn: 05-16-2014 at 11:48 AM. Reason: flaming
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05-16-2014, 11:41 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
Way more often than not, players decline and that affects trade value. GMs trade for what the player will be over the next few years and that is a major factor that goes into it.
No, all players decline. Not all players decline at a specific age and not all players decline at the same rate. There are many factors that go into a player's decline, but your entire point is a moot one because you've been arguing over a thousand posts that Spezza is only signed for one year. Why does his inevitable decline matter to a general manager if he's only signed for one more year?

You keep arguing points and when someone corrects you, you try to argue another point.


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05-16-2014, 11:41 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Andre Benoit Bawls View Post
So in one breath you say he has low value because hes an impending UFA, the next he has low value because he's old? What?

The funny part is no matter what reasons you give for Spezza having low value, there will always be several teams willing to take the risk.
All of it contributes to his value. Yes, teams will be interested, but not at the price that some of you are wanting.


Last edited by ThirdManIn: 05-16-2014 at 11:49 AM. Reason: response to flame
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05-16-2014, 11:43 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by Dick Whitman View Post
No, all players decline. Not all players decline at a specific age and not all players decline at the same rate. There are many factors that go into a player's decline, but your entire point is a moot one because you've been arguing over a thousand posts that Spezza is only signed for one year. Why does his inevitable decline matter to a general manager if he's only signed for one more year?

You keep arguing points and when someone corrects you, you try to argue another point.
I've argued the same points and never moved on to different points and none of my arguments have been proven false.

Do players on average decline after age 30? Yes, and that factors into his value.

Is Spezza injury prone? Yes, and that factors into his trade value.

Is Spezza only signed for 1 more season? Yes, and that affects his value.

His value is Berglund+Rattie+1st.


Last edited by ThirdManIn: 05-16-2014 at 11:50 AM. Reason: edited quote
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05-16-2014, 11:47 AM
  #120
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
All of it contributes to his value. Yes, teams will be interested, but not at the price that some of you are wanting.
.
Some Sens fans want more for our all star player than we'll get? Hardly a surprise. But your arguments have grown extremely exhaustive over the past 1000 posts, and the fact that you rely on "averages" and variables makes it even more tiring.

The Sens wont trade Spezza to a team who thinks hes declining, because there will be 10+ other teams who expect 5 more seasons of 65+ points. The Sens wont trade Spezza to a team who wont be able to resign him, because there are 15 teams who could easily fit him.


Last edited by ThirdManIn: 05-16-2014 at 11:50 AM. Reason: OT/trolling
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05-16-2014, 11:51 AM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Andre Benoit Bawls View Post
The Sens wont trade Spezza to a team who thinks hes declining, because there will be 10+ other teams who expect 5 more seasons of 65+ points.
Read this a few more times. Thanks for proving my point. Spezza scoring 65ish points is declining.

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05-16-2014, 11:52 AM
  #122
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Perhaps we need a refresher on the Flaming rule in here.

Quote:
1) Flaming: Do not post any messages that harass, insult (name calling), belittle, threaten or mock other members. Debates are fine, but critique the opinion, not the person. Personal attacks are not permitted. Do not call other posters trolls. Do not use sweeping generalizations and plural pronouns to cloak personal attacks. For example if a poster(s) states that he thinks 'x' is a good idea, replying that "Anyone who supports 'x' is an idiot" is a personal attack. Do not start threads to call out and embarrass other members; or make posts about ignore lists.
When you start to make the post about the poster you are crossing the line into flaming. Please be mindful of that.

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05-16-2014, 11:53 AM
  #123
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
I've argued the same points and never moved on to different points and none of my arguments have been proven false.

Do players on average decline after age 30? Yes, and that factors into his value. False. That wasn't your argument. your argument that Spezza is going to be 31 therefore he is declining. You have no idea.

Is Spezza injury prone? Yes, and that factors into his trade value. Your argument was that he is injury prone therefore declining faster than he normally would be. You don't watch him player, you don't follow him.

Is Spezza only signed for 1 more season? Yes, and that affects his value. Except that teams have the ability to sign an extension. You don't get to agree to an extension for free. You pay the Sens for that opportunity should a trade be consummated.

His value is Berglund+Rattie+1st. Nope.
Nice try though.


Last edited by ThirdManIn: 05-16-2014 at 11:53 AM. Reason: flame
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05-16-2014, 11:54 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by bleedblue1223 View Post
Read this a few more times. Thanks for proving my point. Spezza scoring 65ish points is declining.
Scored 66 points.
65+.

+...

+

Spezza will always miss 5-10 games a year on bumps and bruises. But way to go, picking out one arbitrarily determined number!


Last edited by ThirdManIn: 05-16-2014 at 11:56 AM. Reason: trolling
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05-16-2014, 11:58 AM
  #125
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How about we take a brief cool down period, shall we? I'm tired of editing posts as soon as they appear.

Read the site rules. Don't flame or troll members. If you disagree, fine, but talk about the points of disagreement and not one another.

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