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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Which record do you think is more impressive?

View Poll Results: Which record do you think is more impressive?
Kerr 8 8.16%
Lemieux 90 91.84%
Voters: 98. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
08-28-2005, 05:33 PM
  #1
reptilian humanoids
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Which record do you think is more impressive?

85-86 - Tim Kerr with 34 powerplay goals
88-89 - Mario Lemieux with 13 shorthanded goals

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Old
08-28-2005, 06:17 PM
  #2
Vikke
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Mario.
Pretty much anyone with enough icetime and luck can hit 30+ PP goals.

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Old
08-28-2005, 06:18 PM
  #3
Galchenkel
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i picked Lemieux's 13 shorthanded goal but i hesitate a lot 'cause we all know that in these years (for both records) offensive was the way they played and defensive was left a bit.

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Old
08-28-2005, 06:39 PM
  #4
Abyss
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I'd say the 13 short handed goals. What are the SHG someone has gotten since then?

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Old
08-28-2005, 07:08 PM
  #5
salty justice
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PP goals are a result of a good system and teamwork most of the time. SH goals are almost pure individual effort. Theres no contest here.

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Old
08-28-2005, 07:18 PM
  #6
David Puddy
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Here are the Single-Season NHL Records.

Short-Handed Goals
13-Mario Lemieux, 1988-89
12-Wayne Gretzky, 1983-84
11-Wayne Gretzky, 1984-85
10-Marcel Dionne, 1974-75
10-Mario Lemieux, 1987-88
10-Dirk Graham, 1988-89

Power Play Goals
34-Tim Kerr, 1985-86
32-Dave Andreychuk, 1992-93
31-Joe Nieuwendyk, 1987-88
31-Mario Lemieux, 1988-89
31-Mario Leimieux, 1995-96
29-Michel Goulet, 1987-88
29-Brett Hull, 1990-91
29-Brett Hull, 1992-93

courtesy of Couch Potato Hockey

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Old
08-28-2005, 09:49 PM
  #7
Habsfan 32
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Mario for sure.

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Old
08-29-2005, 03:20 AM
  #8
12# Peter Bondra
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Mario.

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Old
08-29-2005, 03:37 AM
  #9
interminded
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Mario.

Nuff said.

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Old
08-29-2005, 06:08 AM
  #10
MAF
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I remember the Eastern Semis 2004 Game 3 between Tampa Bay and Monteal when the commentator said something like: "Tampa is one of the best PK teams in the league with (somewhat) 15-16 shorthanded goals."

This magician scored 13 all by himself. No doubt about it.

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Old
08-29-2005, 07:22 AM
  #11
#66
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I still have my ticket stubb from the game against Hartford. Lemieux with 4 goals against Hartford, including the 13th SH, in a 9-4 loss. Its not a homer pick but short handed goals gets it for me. Although Tim Kerr was a beast on the PP and it seemed that anything that came close to him was in the net.

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Old
08-29-2005, 07:35 AM
  #12
brianscot
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I'd have to go with Mario's record too.

I do think, however, its erroneous to state that almost anyone with ice time and luck can score 34 power play goals.

Even though it happened during a high scoring era, Kerr was a master of positioning, patroled high traffic areas, and possessed a ridiculously fast release.

Despite the presence of Propp and Sinisalo, Kerr was by far the top goal scoring threat on those Flyer teams, he always received the most attention by opposing defenses --- especially when the Flyers had a power play.

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Old
08-29-2005, 10:20 AM
  #13
reckoning
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Scoring shorthanded goals is all well and good, but it doesn`t prove how good a penalty killer a player is. The mark of a good penalty killer is how few goals were scored against them. Getting shorthanded goals doesn`t help if you`re giving up a ton of goals.

Quote:
Short-Handed Goals
13-Mario Lemieux, 1988-89
12-Wayne Gretzky, 1983-84
11-Wayne Gretzky, 1984-85
Let`s look at how many PPG were scored against those teams when those players were on the ice:

Mario Lemieux, 1988-89 - 60
Wayne Gretzky, 1983-84 - 31
Wayne Gretzky, 1984-85 - 37

Lemieux`s season, with all those shorthanded goals, still looks less impressive than Gretzky`s.

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Old
08-29-2005, 04:56 PM
  #14
c-carp
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Mario-taking nothing away from Kerr.

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Old
08-29-2005, 06:57 PM
  #15
PACaptain
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Gotta be Mario Lemieux. What a special teams machine he was that year. Earlier in his career when he was a bit faster, he was so dangerous in any situation.

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Old
08-29-2005, 07:01 PM
  #16
dcav
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning
Scoring shorthanded goals is all well and good, but it doesn`t prove how good a penalty killer a player is. The mark of a good penalty killer is how few goals were scored against them. Getting shorthanded goals doesn`t help if you`re giving up a ton of goals



Let`s look at how many PPG were scored against those teams when those players were on the ice:

Mario Lemieux, 1988-89 - 60
Wayne Gretzky, 1983-84 - 31
Wayne Gretzky, 1984-85 - 37

Lemieux`s season, with all those shorthanded goals, still looks less impressive than Gretzky`s.
Reckoning, good piece of info there. good observation.

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Old
08-29-2005, 07:53 PM
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning
Scoring shorthanded goals is all well and good, but it doesn`t prove how good a penalty killer a player is. The mark of a good penalty killer is how few goals were scored against them. Getting shorthanded goals doesn`t help if you`re giving up a ton of goals.



Let`s look at how many PPG were scored against those teams when those players were on the ice:

Mario Lemieux, 1988-89 - 60
Wayne Gretzky, 1983-84 - 31
Wayne Gretzky, 1984-85 - 37

Lemieux`s season, with all those shorthanded goals, still looks less impressive than Gretzky`s.
must have been all those shots gretz blocked.

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Old
08-29-2005, 08:01 PM
  #18
19Yzerman19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vikke
Mario.
Pretty much anyone with enough icetime and luck can hit 30+ PP goals.


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Old
08-29-2005, 08:45 PM
  #19
reckoning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chooch
must have been all those shots gretz blocked.

Joke about it, but did you ever watch Mario on the penalty kill, he was never far back in his end, usually he was near the blueline instead. Breakaway if a teammate gets him the puck, but they get burned if they can`t; and that`s usually what happened.

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Old
08-30-2005, 07:34 AM
  #20
Bring Back Bucky
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning
Joke about it, but did you ever watch Mario on the penalty kill, he was never far back in his end, usually he was near the blueline instead. Breakaway if a teammate gets him the puck, but they get burned if they can`t; and that`s usually what happened.

Reckoning, you're way, way too smart to be responding to that kind of drivel...

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Old
08-30-2005, 07:58 AM
  #21
tom_servo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning
Scoring shorthanded goals is all well and good, but it doesn`t prove how good a penalty killer a player is. The mark of a good penalty killer is how few goals were scored against them. Getting shorthanded goals doesn`t help if you`re giving up a ton of goals.



Let`s look at how many PPG were scored against those teams when those players were on the ice:

Mario Lemieux, 1988-89 - 60
Wayne Gretzky, 1983-84 - 31
Wayne Gretzky, 1984-85 - 37

Lemieux`s season, with all those shorthanded goals, still looks less impressive than Gretzky`s.
How many penalties did Pittsburgh kill compared to Edmonton? Edmonton had 1577 and 1567 penalty minutes, respectively, in '84 and '85; Pittsburgh rang up a league-high 2670 in '89.

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Old
08-30-2005, 08:17 AM
  #22
tom_servo
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More accurate numbers:

'83-84 Oilers -- TT SH 386, PPA 77, PK% = 80.06%
'84-'85 Oilers -- TT SH 353, PPA 76, PK% = 78.5%

'88-'89 Penguins -- TT SH 482, PPA 111, PK% = 77%

So, it's not terribly different once the numbers are in context.

Reckoning, how are you using team statistics to support any single player's performance on the penalty kill?

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Old
08-30-2005, 10:13 AM
  #23
reckoning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tom_servo
More accurate numbers:

'83-84 Oilers -- TT SH 386, PPA 77, PK% = 80.06%
'84-'85 Oilers -- TT SH 353, PPA 76, PK% = 78.5%

'88-'89 Penguins -- TT SH 482, PPA 111, PK% = 77%

So, it's not terribly different once the numbers are in context.

Reckoning, how are you using team statistics to support any single player's performance on the penalty kill?
Good points, but let me respond on them:

- A 3% difference in penalty killing is pretty significant. In Pittsburgh`s `89 season with 482 SH, if their penalty killing was 3% higher it would`ve resulted in 14 less goals against over the course of the season not small potatoes

- If you`re putting numbers in context, you can`t just take numbers from different seasons and compare them as equals, but you can compare how they fared against the other teams in their respective seasons:

'83-84 Oilers -- TT SH 386, PPA 77, PK% = 80.06% 6th overall out of 21 teams
'84-'85 Oilers -- TT SH 353, PPA 76, PK% = 78.5% 9th overall out of 21 teams

'88-'89 Penguins -- TT SH 482, PPA 111, PK% = 77% 16th overall out of 21 teams

- Team statistics can`t be solely used to judge a players penalty killing performance, but the players who play shorthanded all play a part in how the team fares, it can`t totally be discounted either. After all, it`s not a coincidence that Washington`s penalty killing improved dramatically the year they got Jarvis and Langway.
The point is shorthanded goals aren`t only due to one player. Were Lemieux`s 13 SH goals that year the result of him singlehandedly taking the puck away and bringing it all the way down the ice and scoring, or was it Dave Hannan or Bob Errey creating the turnover that started the shorthanded rush?

Quote:
How many penalties did Pittsburgh kill compared to Edmonton? Edmonton had 1577 and 1567 penalty minutes, respectively, in '84 and '85; Pittsburgh rang up a league-high 2670 in '89
That actually makes Lemieux`s season look less impressive than Gretzky`s, as Mario`s team had almost 100 more SH opportunities but he only had 1 more SH goal.

The point is that SH goals are just an interesting quirk, but not really an indication of a player`s defensive ability. Despite their high SH goal totals, I don`t consider Wayne or Mario to have been great defensive players. Their main contribution on the penalty kill was their mere presence. Since they were always a threat to score, the other team would always be cautious about giving up the SH rush and therefore lose some of the edge off their power-play.

Let me put it this way: Pavel Bure has more SH goals in his career than Bob Gainey. I`d love to meet the person that thinks that means Bure was the better defensive forward.

As for Tim Kerr`s record: I`ll never bash Tim Kerr, he`s had to overcome more adversity than hundreds of other players combined, and his career is one of the most inspirational sports stories you`ll find. However a PP goals record is pretty meaningless as PP goals are easier to score than even strength goals.

All goals count the same, but a players even strength point totals are the true best indication of his offensive ability. Which record is more impressive? Neither. Their both merely interesting little bits of trivia.

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Old
08-30-2005, 11:54 AM
  #24
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Old
08-30-2005, 12:03 PM
  #25
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Tim Kerrr for sure...I can't go against my hero.

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