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Old
05-27-2014, 09:21 AM
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanCWombBroom View Post
I find his contract pretty bad. I like the guy, but I'm on capgeek all the time -- I like seeing how other teams are handling the cap--and I can't believe what teams pay for what a guy like Grossmann brings (hint: a lot less.) I just like him, if he can rebound, at 1 million or 1.5 million per. He's about as 1-way as a defenseman can get.

Teams with FAR superior defenses pay so much less.

Granted, it is skewed a bit by overpaying Kimmo and Pronger's remaining dollars, but 4 for Mez? 3.5 for Grossman? 3.6 for Schenn? 5 for Mac and 5.25 for Streit -- both marginal overpayments.

The Schenn family motto should be "Consistently Inconsistent." Until either can prove they can put in a strong 82 game season, my pockets would be tight with them. They're both young, so it's a little expected, but they don't get the money consistent players get until they round out.
Streit didn't get overpayed, everyone else on the other hand... Soon the Flyers won't have that problem as long as they don't trade away Morin/Ghost/Hagg/ because they will be on rookie contracts and allow the Flyers to spend more money else where.

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05-27-2014, 09:24 AM
  #52
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Originally Posted by SeanCWombBroom View Post
I find his contract pretty bad. I like the guy, but I'm on capgeek all the time -- I like seeing how other teams are handling the cap--and I can't believe what teams pay for what a guy like Grossmann brings (hint: a lot less.) I just like him, if he can rebound, at 1 million or 1.5 million per. He's about as 1-way as a defenseman can get.

Teams with FAR superior defenses pay so much less.

Granted, it is skewed a bit by overpaying Kimmo and Pronger's remaining dollars, but 4 for Mez? 3.5 for Grossman? 3.6 for Schenn? 5 for Mac and 5.25 for Streit -- both marginal overpayments.

The Schenn family motto should be "Consistently Inconsistent." Until either can prove they can put in a strong 82 game season, my pockets would be tight with them. They're both young, so it's a little expected, but they don't get the money consistent players get until they round out.
Or more importantly, teams with a comparable defense tend to pay 10-20 million dollars less in total for it.

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05-27-2014, 09:42 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Or more importantly, teams with a comparable defense tend to pay 10-20 million dollars less in total for it.
Yeah. I end up shaking my head a lot. I understand there are reasons for the situation, but it still makes me sore when I see how much less is being paid for what I consider equal or better defensive players.

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05-27-2014, 09:57 AM
  #54
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Originally Posted by SeanCWombBroom View Post
Yeah. I end up shaking my head a lot. I understand there are reasons for the situation, but it still makes me sore when I see how much less is being paid for what I consider equal or better defensive players.
I'm cautiously optimistic we can make it work. There are a lot of forwards on cheap contracts making it possible, hopefully the dmen drafted by the org can move in and reduce cost by the time the forwards are getting paid.

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05-27-2014, 09:57 AM
  #55
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Or more importantly, teams with a comparable defense tend to pay 10-20 million dollars less in total for it.
That's what happens when you sign 4 of your top 6 defensemen during their UFA years instead of developing your defensemen from within the organization. If they bring Kimmo back next year and no other moves are made, they'll be spending at least 7+ million dollars on their third pair. Absurd.

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05-27-2014, 10:24 AM
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanCWombBroom View Post
I find his contract pretty bad. I like the guy, but I'm on capgeek all the time -- I like seeing how other teams are handling the cap--and I can't believe what teams pay for what a guy like Grossmann brings (hint: a lot less.) I just like him, if he can rebound, at 1 million or 1.5 million per. He's about as 1-way as a defenseman can get.

Teams with FAR superior defenses pay so much less.

Granted, it is skewed a bit by overpaying Kimmo and Pronger's remaining dollars, but 4 for Mez? 3.5 for Grossman? 3.6 for Schenn? 5 for Mac and 5.25 for Streit -- both marginal overpayments.

The Schenn family motto should be "Consistently Inconsistent." Until either can prove they can put in a strong 82 game season, my pockets would be tight with them. They're both young, so it's a little expected, but they don't get the money consistent players get until they round out.
I don't really think the problem is that the individual players are overpaid, I think it is that we have too many second pairing defensemen. Mez's contract took a hit when the injuries hit. Grossmann wasn't a problem until this season...otherwise I don't think anyone had a problem with his contract. Schenn is not overpaid...how much should he be making...seems to be right on par. Streit is not overpaid...probably could have gotten more on the open market. Timonen was overpaid last year...probably by about double. AMac is a little overpaid, but nothing insane.

The problem is that none of those guys are top pairing guys. We are paying all that money to all second pairing/complimentary players.

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05-27-2014, 12:38 PM
  #57
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Or more importantly, teams with a comparable defense tend to pay 10-20 million dollars less in total for it.
Yeah, I agree with your point, although 10 - 20 million dollars might be stretching it a bit. It's weird, though, since I don't feel as if anyone's overpaid by that much. But when you put it all together, the entire product just doesn't deliver the expected value.

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05-27-2014, 12:48 PM
  #58
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Yeah, I agree with your point, although 10 - 20 million dollars might be stretching it a bit. It's weird, though, since I don't feel as if anyone's overpaid by that much. But when you put it all together, the entire product just doesn't deliver the expected value.
Sadly, I'm not stretching much.

Flyers: $26,791,429

LA: $16,266,667
NYR: $17,075,000
Boston: $17,544,167
Nashville: $13,448,810
Minnesota: $14,549,295
Montreal: $9,795,000
Detroit: $13,387,500


So really, like 10-15 million; or 2-3 damned solid players' worth. And those D groups are all equal or better than ours. I think Chicago and St. Louis are in our neighborhood, but they're STILL paying a couple million less for much better results.


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05-27-2014, 12:56 PM
  #59
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Sadly, I'm not stretching much.

Flyers: $26,791,429

LA: $16,266,667
NYR: $17,075,000
Boston: $17,544,167
Nashville: $13,448,810
Minnesota: $14,549,295
Montreal: $9,795,000
Detroit: $13,387,500


So really, like 10-15 million; or 2-3 damned solid players' worth. And those D groups are all equal or better than ours. I think Chicago and St. Louis are in our neighborhood, but they're STILL paying a couple million less for much better results.

No, but those numbers only include players already signed for next year. So Montreal, for example, doesn't have PK Subban, Markov, Bouillon and Weaver! Same for other teams, probably.

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05-27-2014, 12:57 PM
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Sadly, I'm not stretching much.

Flyers: $26,791,429

LA: $16,266,667
NYR: $17,075,000
Boston: $17,544,167
Nashville: $13,448,810
Minnesota: $14,549,295
Montreal: $9,795,000
Detroit: $13,387,500


So really, like 10-15 million; or 2-3 damned solid players' worth. And those D groups are all equal or better than ours. I think Chicago and St. Louis are in our neighborhood, but they're STILL paying a couple million less for much better results.

All about those ELCs, bridge contracts and development. Everyone in our D was acquired via FA or trade!

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05-27-2014, 01:03 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Sadly, I'm not stretching much.

Flyers: $26,791,429

LA: $16,266,667
NYR: $17,075,000
Boston: $17,544,167
Nashville: $13,448,810
Minnesota: $14,549,295
Montreal: $9,795,000
Detroit: $13,387,500


So really, like 10-15 million; or 2-3 damned solid players' worth. And those D groups are all equal or better than ours. I think Chicago and St. Louis are in our neighborhood, but they're STILL paying a couple million less for much better results.

Philadelphia: $21,850,000

It's a stretch to compare our numbers with Pronger's carcass to other teams' active rosters, unless you legitimately think the Flyers would be icing this same defensive roster if Pronger could play.

(And before I hear "But Kimmo made...," MacDonald didn't make $5M last year, either. It's either one or the other.)

The Flyers are overpaying for their defense, there's no question of that, but it's not a $10M a year overpay; it's about $5M, plus $5M of dead money that caused them to make some reactionary moves that didn't pan out.

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05-27-2014, 01:15 PM
  #62
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If Pronger had not got hurt they would have resigned Carle since they were such a good pair, and not traded for LSchenn, Grossmann or signed Streit.

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05-27-2014, 01:42 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by dilbert719 View Post
Philadelphia: $21,850,000

It's a stretch to compare our numbers with Pronger's carcass to other teams' active rosters, unless you legitimately think the Flyers would be icing this same defensive roster if Pronger could play.

(And before I hear "But Kimmo made...," MacDonald didn't make $5M last year, either. It's either one or the other.)

The Flyers are overpaying for their defense, there's no question of that, but it's not a $10M a year overpay; it's about $5M, plus $5M of dead money that caused them to make some reactionary moves that didn't pan out.

You can't just ignore Pronger's cap hit. It continues to exist during the offseason and therefore it continues to affect the team.

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05-27-2014, 01:43 PM
  #64
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You can't just ignore Pronger's cap hit. It continues to exist during the offseason and therefore it continues to affect the team.
You're not using the right numbers, as I mentioned. You can't just ignore the UFAs and RFAs. You should have posted this season's numbers instead.

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05-27-2014, 01:54 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by dilbert719 View Post
Philadelphia: $21,850,000

It's a stretch to compare our numbers with Pronger's carcass to other teams' active rosters, unless you legitimately think the Flyers would be icing this same defensive roster if Pronger could play.

(And before I hear "But Kimmo made...," MacDonald didn't make $5M last year, either. It's either one or the other.)

The Flyers are overpaying for their defense, there's no question of that, but it's not a $10M a year overpay; it's about $5M, plus $5M of dead money that caused them to make some reactionary moves that didn't pan out.

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05-27-2014, 02:09 PM
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You're not using the right numbers, as I mentioned. You can't just ignore the UFAs and RFAs. You should have posted this season's numbers instead.
I did that last offseason; the conclusion was the same. The Flyers had the most expensive D in the league. Many of those teams listed were still 10-15 million below the Flyers with the D groups for each team finalized for season's start.

Either way, we are going into the offseason with the most expensive D group. Again.

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05-27-2014, 03:15 PM
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Until Pronger is done with three years from now that will continue to be the case in all likelihood.

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05-27-2014, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I did that last offseason; the conclusion was the same. The Flyers had the most expensive D in the league. Many of those teams listed were still 10-15 million below the Flyers with the D groups for each team finalized for season's start.

Either way, we are going into the offseason with the most expensive D group. Again.
Yeah, I agree with you on the point, I just disagree about the numbers. I was looking at it throughout the season, as well, though, and the impression I got was 5 - 10 million. But whatever it is, it's not good.

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05-27-2014, 04:13 PM
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Yeah, I agree with you on the point, I just disagree about the numbers. I was looking at it throughout the season, as well, though, and the impression I got was 5 - 10 million. But whatever it is, it's not good.
Yeah, the gap closes during the season after re-signings are sorted and such.

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05-27-2014, 04:51 PM
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There seems to be this prevailing thought about Grossmann that he was once a good player. He really wasn't. More people caught on because the things he was once doing well such a clearing the front of the net, and eating penalty minutes, other things that aren't 5v5, he hasn't done that as effectively. So, he may yet rebound, but you're talking rebounding back into a mediocre player. Not a mediocre player rebounding into a good player. He is still paid too much for what people even hope he really is.

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05-27-2014, 04:53 PM
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There seems to be this prevailing thought about Grossmann that he was once a good player. He really wasn't. More people caught on because the things he was once doing well such a clearing the front of the net, he hasn't done that. So, he may yet rebound, but you're talking rebounding back into a mediocre player. He is still paid too much for what people even hope he really is.
If I remember correctly, the majority of these boards were very happy with how the Dallas trade was turning out and were also quite eager to get Grossmann locked down under contract.

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05-27-2014, 04:57 PM
  #72
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If I remember correctly, the majority of these boards were very happy with how the Dallas trade was turning out and were also quite eager to get Grossmann locked down under contract.
People on message boards are allowed to be wrong. I actually should go back and look at what I thought because I don't really remember, but I'm sure I too thought more of it then than now. I just know it's a minus-contract now. It was also a different coach.


Think my power's gonna get knocked out before I get that far though

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05-27-2014, 05:01 PM
  #73
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There seems to be this prevailing thought about Grossmann that he was once a good player. He really wasn't. More people caught on because the things he was once doing well such a clearing the front of the net, and eating penalty minutes, other things that aren't 5v5, he hasn't done that as effectively. So, he may yet rebound, but you're talking rebounding back into a mediocre player. Not a mediocre player rebounding into a good player. He is still paid too much for what people even hope he really is.
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1156367

Here's some good ones:

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Excellent. Hopefully it's not too far north of $3M.
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5 yrs, 17 million is my guess.
Might be a year or two too long, but I think I'd take it. It would be a moveable contract if we had to.
It turned out to be a year shorter, too.

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So overpaid by half of an Andreas Lilja?


I can deal.
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$14.00 over 4 years is even better

So clearly at one point you thought Grossmann was, in fact, a good player, GKJ. Don't act like you saw his poor play coming from a mile away.

And people need to stop acting like his poor play will continue indefinitely. He had a really bad year, but he can still be a good player.

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05-27-2014, 05:02 PM
  #74
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People on message boards are allowed to be wrong. I actually should go back and look at what I thought because I don't really remember, but I'm sure I too thought more of it then than now. I just know it's a minus-contract now. It was also a different coach.
They are allowed to be wrong, and as you may well know, I'll be the first one to point it out But, yeah, this was just a general comment on what you wrote, I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with what you said.

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05-27-2014, 05:03 PM
  #75
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Grossmann was what we needed at the time. We needed a guy to block shots as a meatshield for Bryz and keep bodies away from him, since he didn't seem interested in fighting for or controlling rebounds. We have a goalie who can fend for himself now. It seems to me that makes Grossmann pretty easily expendable.

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