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Hockey Invented In England ... Not Canada

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Old
07-22-2014, 03:46 PM
  #251
Iain Fyffe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Goalies, post 1866 and the patented ice hockey skate.By 1875 you had goalies and skaters wearing superior skates. By 1886 there were rules in place limiting what a goalie could do to stop the puck - no sitiing, lieing or falling to the ice. Yet in a very short time Tom Paton had developed a very sophisticated understanding of the position that was only lacking in appropriate equipmet - pads and goalie skates. This was the point. Pre 1875 and definitely pre 1866 goaltending lacked these attributes.
You've dodged both questions.

Why six to nine players, specifically? What is it about the tenth player that would make it not ice hockey, given that with nine players you're still cool with it being ice hockey?

And what changed in 1875, specifically? If the best you can do it point to a skate patented in 1866, then you have no reason to say that anything changed in 1875, since the data you're referring to is 1866. It's purely a guess on your part, asserted as a fact.

And of course, iIn the past you've stated that the 1866 skate took 20 years to become widely adopted, and that it explained the spike in scoring around 1887. Now, that was purely a guess on your part as well, but are you now admitting that your earlier guess was wrong, and that it only took 10 years?

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07-22-2014, 07:07 PM
  #252
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
By 1875 you had goalies and skaters wearing superior skates. By 1886 there were rules in place limiting what a goalie could do to stop the puck - no sitiing, lieing or falling to the ice.
I see, you've assumed that 1886 rule #13 was a new rule, rather than a codification of existing practice. We can't say that with any certainty. At an absolute minimum, three rules that were "added" in 1886 were simply existing practices that hadn't yet been written down: rule #5 for the number of players on a team, rule #7 defining how a goal is scored and how a match is won, and rule #10 defining the boundary line (which was referred to in the 1877 rules but was not defined there). So unless you have some direct evidence, you can't simply assume that something that did not appear in the rules until 1886 was not put in practice before then. The 1877 rules were extremely sparse and needed significant fleshing out.

Do you have any textual evidence of a goaltender before 1886 going down on the ice to stop the puck?

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07-23-2014, 10:11 AM
  #253
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Progression

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
You've dodged both questions.

Why six to nine players, specifically? What is it about the tenth player that would make it not ice hockey, given that with nine players you're still cool with it being ice hockey?

And what changed in 1875, specifically? If the best you can do it point to a skate patented in 1866, then you have no reason to say that anything changed in 1875, since the data you're referring to is 1866. It's purely a guess on your part, asserted as a fact.

And of course, iIn the past you've stated that the 1866 skate took 20 years to become widely adopted, and that it explained the spike in scoring around 1887. Now, that was purely a guess on your part as well, but are you now admitting that your earlier guess was wrong, and that it only took 10 years?
You are reversing the evolution of ice hockey. It was not from
six to nine, then beyond, rather from over 10 or less if insufficient space or players, then to 9 when first game was played indoors in 1875, March 3, 1875, eventually to 6.

Ten years would be the midpoint of the adaptation process. Similar to the face mask for goalies where it took roughly twenty years from the time goalies wore facemasks in practice to Jacques Plante wearing one Nov, 1, 1959 to the last maskless goalie in pro hockey Andy Brown.

Just recognizing that adaptation to equipment takes time usually a generation, the length of time it takes to insure that beginners started with the Equipment in question.

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07-23-2014, 10:14 AM
  #254
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New Rule?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
I see, you've assumed that 1886 rule #13 was a new rule, rather than a codification of existing practice. We can't say that with any certainty. At an absolute minimum, three rules that were "added" in 1886 were simply existing practices that hadn't yet been written down: rule #5 for the number of players on a team, rule #7 defining how a goal is scored and how a match is won, and rule #10 defining the boundary line (which was referred to in the 1877 rules but was not defined there). So unless you have some direct evidence, you can't simply assume that something that did not appear in the rules until 1886 was not put in practice before then. The 1877 rules were extremely sparse and needed significant fleshing out.

Do you have any textual evidence of a goaltender before 1886 going down on the ice to stop the puck?
No such assumption was made. Kindly re-read my phrasing that you quoted.

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07-23-2014, 10:34 AM
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
You are reversing the evolution of ice hockey. It was not from six to nine, then beyond, rather from over 10 or less if insufficient space or players, then to 9 when first game was played indoors in 1875, March 3, 1875, eventually to 6.
No, you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. You posited the range of 6 to 9 players as being characteristic of ice hockey. That is, 6 as the lower end and 9 as the higher end, not as a chronological progression. Please refer back to the post I initially quoted.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Ten years would be the midpoint of the adaptation process.
Okay, cool, so that should settle the question of whether the 1866 skate patent had anything to do with the spike in scoring in 1887. It clearly did not, according to your argument here, unless you're saying that a change in skates has absolutely no effect until the very last player has adopted them, which of course would be absolutely ridiculous. If anything, the spike would occur where a significant number of players had adopted them but others had not, given the former group of players an advantage over the latter.

Now, where is your evidence that these skates were being adopted at this rate? Where is your evidence that goaltenders did not immediately adopt them, while skaters adopted them later? Where is your evidence that anything changed about the goaltender position in 1875 that was significant?

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07-23-2014, 10:43 AM
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
No such assumption was made. Kindly re-read my phrasing that you quoted.
Alright, honestly I often do find your phrasing difficult to parse.... {Mod}

So here it is. I will add notations below it:

"Goalies, post 1866 and the patented ice hockey skate.By 1875 you had goalies and skaters wearing superior skates. [1] By 1886 there were rules in place limiting what a goalie could do to stop the puck - no sitiing, lieing or falling to the ice. [2] Yet in a very short time Tom Paton had developed a very sophisticated understanding of the position [3] that was only lacking in appropriate equipmet - pads and goalie skates. [4] This was the point. Pre 1875 and definitely pre 1866 goaltending lacked these attributes. [5]"

[1] This is an undemonstrated assertion. What evidence do you have that 1875 goaltenders were wearing skates superior to those worn in 1874 or before? You say ten years is the midpoint, but that's just a claim with respect to these skates unless you can back it up with evidence.

[2] The quote in question.

[3] Since you refer to a "very short time", this should be a reference to the 1886 rules which prevented goaltenders from going to the ice. If it's not a reference to that, but to 1875, then you have phrased this badly.

Also, how do you know Paton had a very sophisticated understanding of the position, rather than just having incredible reflexes?

[4] Lacking in appropriate equipment to do what? According to you he was already wearing superior skates.

[5] What attributes?


Last edited by Killion: 07-23-2014 at 09:39 PM. Reason: ... not req'd.
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07-24-2014, 09:55 AM
  #257
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Tom Paton

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
Alright, honestly I often do find your phrasing difficult to parse.... {Mod}

So here it is. I will add notations below it:

"Goalies, post 1866 and the patented ice hockey skate.By 1875 you had goalies and skaters wearing superior skates. [1] By 1886 there were rules in place limiting what a goalie could do to stop the puck - no sitiing, lieing or falling to the ice. [2] Yet in a very short time Tom Paton had developed a very sophisticated understanding of the position [3] that was only lacking in appropriate equipmet - pads and goalie skates. [4] This was the point. Pre 1875 and definitely pre 1866 goaltending lacked these attributes. [5]"

[1] This is an undemonstrated assertion. What evidence do you have that 1875 goaltenders were wearing skates superior to those worn in 1874 or before? You say ten years is the midpoint, but that's just a claim with respect to these skates unless you can back it up with evidence.

[2] The quote in question.

[3] Since you refer to a "very short time", this should be a reference to the 1886 rules which prevented goaltenders from going to the ice. If it's not a reference to that, but to 1875, then you have phrased this badly.

Also, how do you know Paton had a very sophisticated understanding of the position, rather than just having incredible reflexes?

[4] Lacking in appropriate equipment to do what? According to you he was already wearing superior skates.

[5] What attributes?
Tom Paton, born 1854.

From your blog.

http://hockeyhistorysis.blogspot.ca/...love-hand.html

From the Starr Company site:

http://www.birthplaceofhockey.com/origin/starr-hockey/

Note the 1866 patented ice hockey skate allowed for a pivot below the toes. Also note that by 1881 the skates were readily available in Montreal.

For effective shot blocking with the stick and skates the goalies legs must be used properly. One leg has to be anchored while the other leg has to pivot. Blocking with the skate requires the goalie to pivot the unanchored leg at least 90 degrees so that the blocked shot is stopped or deflected towards a corner. Less than 90 degrees and the shot may deflect behind the goalie, perhaps into the goal. Basic physics applied to goaltending. Even today the technique for a goalie, properly blocking and directing shots is one of the toughest to master.

The 1866 Starr Ice Hockey Skates allowed goalies the necessary edge work(anchor and return) and the ability to pivot that facilitated the use of the legs, stick and skates to stop shots in a more efficient fashion. Previous skates, especially without the elevated metal blade running the length of the skate and without the boot grips would not allow such movement for a goalie as the boot could touch the ice causing a fall or causing the skate to detach from the boot.

Tom Paton was a pre-teen/early teen when the 1866 Starr Ice Hockey skates became available. Definitely enough time for an athletic individual to properly master goaltending techniques when supported with appropriate ice hockey skates.

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07-24-2014, 04:59 PM
  #258
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Originally Posted by who_me? View Post
One example. From 3,000 years ago. Congratulations.
There are countless examples from all over the world. Sporting activity - unrelated to the killing of an opponent - is known in many cultures.

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07-24-2014, 07:52 PM
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Tom Paton, born 1854.
If you're going to simply ignore all of the specific points I write out for you, and just make some vague response related to one of them, I'm just going to start ignoring you completely.

Please address my points 1, 3, 4 and 5 in my previous post, using something other that your guess as to when certain skates were adopted in Montreal.

Also, address my previous questions, such as why you suggested that 6 to 9 is the range of the number of players for ice hockey.

Why do you have such trouble responding to direct questions?

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07-25-2014, 10:19 AM
  #260
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Answers Were Provided

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
If you're going to simply ignore all of the specific points I write out for you, and just make some vague response related to one of them, I'm just going to start ignoring you completely.

Please address my points 1, 3, 4 and 5 in my previous post, using something other that your guess as to when certain skates were adopted in Montreal.

Also, address my previous questions, such as why you suggested that 6 to 9 is the range of the number of players for ice hockey.

Why do you have such trouble responding to direct questions?

Your points were answered. {Mod} Refer to page 55 of Donald Guay book for a picture of a goalie and skate positioning and the skates in question. Also note that in the link to the 1866 ice hockey skate patent photos and history the photo of the 1881 McGill hockey team all wearing Starr skates clearly puts the use of Starr skates at 1881 within the time frame being discussed so it is not a guess but based on photo evidence. You failing to scroll down the page and notice the 1881 McGill photo does not make my submission a guess.

The 9 to 6 range for on ice participants stems from point two in the following Orlick article from 1943 as posted on HF:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...01&postcount=8

My reference is to to game being played INDOORS[B] on a surface limited by boards to a surface 200 x 85 feet,or an outdoor surface with boards approaching the 200 x 85 dimensions. Orlick goes on to explain the downward reduction of on ice participants to 7 a few years later. Orlick contrasts this to the number of participants ranging into triple digits on open ice(Kingston)

The key element is that other than pastime hockey on an open pond, post March 3, 1875 was Ice Hockey was played on dedicated rinks to dimensions that were not suitable to double digit participation per team. Even 9, later 7 was deemed to be too large a number. Not speculation but supported by newspaper evidence.

As for Tom Paton, you may find the following interesting:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...=6590%2C851046


Last edited by Killion: 07-26-2014 at 02:10 AM. Reason: not reqd...
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07-25-2014, 03:38 PM
  #261
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Note the 1866 patented ice hockey skate allowed for a pivot below the toes. Also note that by 1881 the skates were readily available in Montreal.
Old myths are hard to debunk. The Forbes Acme skate was used by hockey players, but it was not made specifically for hockey.
As far as we know, it wasn't even patented with the game of hockey in mind.

In the “Forbes Acme Skate,” Nova Scotia patent application dated June 11, 1866, the word “hockey” does not appear anywhere in the petition, the claim, the specifications or the drawing. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t it until ca 1893 that a specific hockey skate was patented by Starr Manufacturing Co ?

in England the "Standard Hockey Skates" were authorized to be used by the National Skating Association on October 14, 1881.
The Handbook of Fen Skating, printed in December 1881 had the following when it came to hockey skates:

(Page 76)
The “Standard Hockey Skates” bear the device of the two crossed sticks and a ball, with the letters S.H (Standard Hockey) upon the blade and upon the straps. These skates are exactly the same as the others, except that the blades are stronger made, and are more rounded at the bottom.

(Page 147)
The ”Standard Hockey Skates” referred to at page 76 are made extra strong in the blade, and with double the amount of curve at the bottom so as to render turning easier, while they are sufficiently flat to take hold of the ice by considerable portion of their length, and so to admit of considerable speed.

I do believe that both Colquhoun & Cadman and the Marsden Brothers, both of Sheffield were the ones who manufactured specific hockey skates.
The Marsden brothers were suppliers of ice skates to the Royal family, who had played hockey since at least the early 1840s.
So as far as we know today, the first specific hockey skates were manufactured in England.

We know that hockey players in Canada were using Acme skates at the latest 1881, probably already in 1875.
But the skates were not made specifically for hockey as most people still seem to believe.
The first ones, specifically made for hockey that we know for sure were the ones made in Sheffield, England, at least as early as 1881, probably earlier.
Hopefully someone can dig up an earlier contemporary reference from Canada.

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07-25-2014, 09:15 PM
  #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Gordon Orr View Post
In the “Forbes Acme Skate,” Nova Scotia patent application dated June 11, 1866, the word “hockey” does not appear anywhere in the petition
The first time the word "hockey" appears in a Nova Scotia reference is in 1864.
http://www.sihrhockey.org/new/pdfs/s...%20Preface.pdf

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07-25-2014, 10:56 PM
  #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Your points were answered. Sorry that you do not appreciate equipment.
No they weren't...

You claim that something changed in 1875, and as evidence you point to a picture from 1881? Since the skates were patented in 1866, how do you know they were not already in use in Montreal in, say, 1870?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
The 9 to 6 range for on ice participants stems from point two in the following Orlick article from 1943 as posted on HF:
The claim seems to stem from the fact that early Montreal hockey used nine players per side, and this was eventually reduced to six. But you keep dodging the question: if they had used 10 players instead, would it not have been ice hockey?


Last edited by Killion: 07-25-2014 at 11:02 PM. Reason: not reqd...
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07-25-2014, 11:16 PM
  #264
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Just to be clear, I am not questioning anything you say about the effect a certain type of skate would have on a goaltender's play. Not even addressing that.

I'm asking for evidence that these skates began to be used at a particular time, which you have asserted but have not provided evidence for. Until you do so, discussing whether or not your interpretation of their effect on play is accurate is moot.

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07-26-2014, 06:25 AM
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Rotter View Post
The first time the word "hockey" appears in a Nova Scotia reference is in 1864.
http://www.sihrhockey.org/new/pdfs/s...%20Preface.pdf
The first time the word "hockey" appears in a London reference is in 1773, but does it mean that the patented skates made in London by John Savigny in 1784 were made for hockey ? of course not. My point was that we have no indication at all that John Forbes, the son of a Scottish immigrant had hockey in mind at all when he patented the Forbes Acme skates, until we of course see a contemporary source that says otherwise.

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07-26-2014, 09:48 AM
  #266
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1873

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Gordon Orr View Post
Old myths are hard to debunk. The Forbes Acme skate was used by hockey players, but it was not made specifically for hockey.
As far as we know, it wasn't even patented with the game of hockey in mind.

In the “Forbes Acme Skate,” Nova Scotia patent application dated June 11, 1866, the word “hockey” does not appear anywhere in the petition, the claim, the specifications or the drawing. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t it until ca 1893 that a specific hockey skate was patented by Starr Manufacturing Co ?

in England the "Standard Hockey Skates" were authorized to be used by the National Skating Association on October 14, 1881.
The Handbook of Fen Skating, printed in December 1881 had the following when it came to hockey skates:

(Page 76)
The “Standard Hockey Skates” bear the device of the two crossed sticks and a ball, with the letters S.H (Standard Hockey) upon the blade and upon the straps. These skates are exactly the same as the others, except that the blades are stronger made, and are more rounded at the bottom.

(Page 147)
The ”Standard Hockey Skates” referred to at page 76 are made extra strong in the blade, and with double the amount of curve at the bottom so as to render turning easier, while they are sufficiently flat to take hold of the ice by considerable portion of their length, and so to admit of considerable speed.

I do believe that both Colquhoun & Cadman and the Marsden Brothers, both of Sheffield were the ones who manufactured specific hockey skates.
The Marsden brothers were suppliers of ice skates to the Royal family, who had played hockey since at least the early 1840s.
So as far as we know today, the first specific hockey skates were manufactured in England.

We know that hockey players in Canada were using Acme skates at the latest 1881, probably already in 1875.
But the skates were not made specifically for hockey as most people still seem to believe.
The first ones, specifically made for hockey that we know for sure were the ones made in Sheffield, England, at least as early as 1881, probably earlier.
Hopefully someone can dig up an earlier contemporary reference from Canada.
1873 hockey on ice skates in Montreal, posted previously in the Orlick thread:

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...5595%2C4611730

Also the use of gloves by goalies in Montréal pre-dates 1875. Same article Henry Joseph provides a very detailed account of the era and times leading up to the March 3, 1875 game.

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07-26-2014, 10:14 AM
  #267
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British Skates

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Gordon Orr View Post
Old myths are hard to debunk. The Forbes Acme skate was used by hockey players, but it was not made specifically for hockey.
As far as we know, it wasn't even patented with the game of hockey in mind.

In the “Forbes Acme Skate,” Nova Scotia patent application dated June 11, 1866, the word “hockey” does not appear anywhere in the petition, the claim, the specifications or the drawing. Please correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t it until ca 1893 that a specific hockey skate was patented by Starr Manufacturing Co ?

in England the "Standard Hockey Skates" were authorized to be used by the National Skating Association on October 14, 1881.
The Handbook of Fen Skating, printed in December 1881 had the following when it came to hockey skates:

(Page 76)
The “Standard Hockey Skates” bear the device of the two crossed sticks and a ball, with the letters S.H (Standard Hockey) upon the blade and upon the straps. These skates are exactly the same as the others, except that the blades are stronger made, and are more rounded at the bottom.

(Page 147)
The ”Standard Hockey Skates” referred to at page 76 are made extra strong in the blade, and with double the amount of curve at the bottom so as to render turning easier, while they are sufficiently flat to take hold of the ice by considerable portion of their length, and so to admit of considerable speed.

I do believe that both Colquhoun & Cadman and the Marsden Brothers, both of Sheffield were the ones who manufactured specific hockey skates.
The Marsden brothers were suppliers of ice skates to the Royal family, who had played hockey since at least the early 1840s.
So as far as we know today, the first specific hockey skates were manufactured in England.

We know that hockey players in Canada were using Acme skates at the latest 1881, probably already in 1875.
But the skates were not made specifically for hockey as most people still seem to believe.
The first ones, specifically made for hockey that we know for sure were the ones made in Sheffield, England, at least as early as 1881, probably earlier.
Hopefully someone can dig up an earlier contemporary reference from Canada.
Would you be referring to these skates made in Britain?

http://www.iceskatesmuseum.com/e-bn-en-1.htm

1841 Prince Albert - skating almost drowned. No reference to playing Ice Hockey:

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/busine...firm-1-4190728

Patent laws vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. One of the basics is filing a petition or application for a patent that provides the greatest protection. The patent holder cannot control post purchase use of a product so specifying to an activity would significantly weaken a patent. File for Ice Skates since filing for ICE Hockey Skates would allow someone with a minor modification to file for a patent for Non-Hockey Ice Skates circumventing the original patent while knowing that the resulting product could be sold and used for Ice Hockey regardless.

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07-26-2014, 10:22 AM
  #268
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Henry Joseph

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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
No they weren't...

You claim that something changed in 1875, and as evidence you point to a picture from 1881? Since the skates were patented in 1866, how do you know they were not already in use in Montreal in, say, 1870?


The claim seems to stem from the fact that early Montreal hockey used nine players per side, and this was eventually reduced to six. But you keep dodging the question: if they had used 10 players instead, would it not have been ice hockey?
See the Henry Joseph article posted previously in various threads. By 1881 we can link to a specific source or manufacturer. 1873 we make such a specific link cannot.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...5595%2C4611730

Hypothetical. Fact remains that they did not use 10 players.Early indoor hockey - 1875 used nine per side. Unless you find examples/proof of adults playing an organized/sanctionned game of Ice Hockey, indoors on a rink that is 200' x 85' or smaller with 10 or more participants per team your question is moot.

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07-26-2014, 10:48 AM
  #269
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
1873 hockey on ice skates in Montreal, posted previously in the Orlick thread:
This is irrelevant to the question of whether the skates you mention were specifically designed for hockey. Clearly they were playing hockey on the ice, using skates, by that time. But you're talking about a particular type of skate, and asserting that it was intended for hockey. You have not demonstrated this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
See the Henry Joseph article posted previously in various threads. By 1881 we can link to a specific source or manufacturer. 1873 we make such a specific link cannot.
You did not say "by 1881" originally. You said the change occurred in 1875 specifically. In 1874 they did not have these skates, and in 1875 they did. Please provide your evidence for this claim.

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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Hypothetical.
Illustrative. Trying to define hockey by specifying a number of players leads to selective definitions. You say 6 to 9 players is characteristic of hockey. So does this mean that in today's game, when both teams are playing a man short (5-on-5), they are no longer playing hockey? Is NHL overtime today not hockey?

This is my point: why this range specifically, other than to ensure that early Montreal hockey is considered ice hockey, but some earlier English hockey is not? What is it about the numbers 6 through 9 that makes it hockey? NHL teams can play with as little as 4 players a side at times, so if 6 to 9 means hockey, then is this not hockey?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Early indoor hockey - 1875 used nine per side. Unless you find examples/proof of adults playing an organized/sanctionned game of Ice Hockey, indoors on a rink that is 200' x 85' or smaller with 10 or more participants per team your question is moot.
No it isn't, because I'm pointing out that you are defining hockey based on the Montreal version alone. Why must the game be indoors? Why on an ice surface of 200' x 85' or smaller? Are you suggesting that a game that only differs in the fact that it was played outdoors, with 10 players instead of 9 would make it not hockey?

Defining the game based on specific measurements such as these is untenable. It's arbitrary. If you define hockey to mean such a game played by 8 or more players (as you might have done if you were a player in 1878 or so), then you would include the earliest Montreal matches, but exclude much of North American hockey history. If you define it to be played by no more than 7 players, then you include the vast majority of hockey history, but exclude the earliest Montreal matches.

You could include in the definition of the game the fact that it is played by a limited number of players per side, but once you start placing limits on those numbers, you start getting arbitrary. Similarly, you can say it's played by a defined set of rules, but once you start including specific rules in your definition you start getting arbitrary. The rules today are quite different from the rules in 1877, but I'm sure you would like both to be considered ice hockey. This is why you cannot include such specific factors in the discussion.

You are trying to establish what hockey is ex post facto, looking back on it using only modern eyes. Do you really think that players in 1877, if asked if hockey could be played with 10 men per side, would say that it could not?

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07-26-2014, 10:51 AM
  #270
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Would you be referring to these skates made in Britain?
Do those skates have "S.H." on the blade? If not, these are not the skates he's referring to.

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07-26-2014, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Robert Gordon Orr View Post
The first time the word "hockey" appears in a London reference is in 1773, but does it mean that the patented skates made in London by John Savigny in 1784 were made for hockey ? of course not. My point was that we have no indication at all that John Forbes, the son of a Scottish immigrant had hockey in mind at all when he patented the Forbes Acme skates, until we of course see a contemporary source that says otherwise.
My point was the word "hockey" came very late to Nova Scotia. Not playing a hockey-like game on ice, just the word to describe it. So someone who would patent a skate for a hockey-like game on ice in Nova Scotia in the 1860s would probably not use the term "hockey".

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07-26-2014, 12:31 PM
  #272
TheDevilMadeMe
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Let's try to focus more on the origins of this great sport - particularly the England vs Canada angle - and less on proving each other wrong about points that are only somewhat related


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 07-26-2014 at 02:41 PM.
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07-26-2014, 04:22 PM
  #273
Robert Gordon Orr
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
1873 hockey on ice skates in Montreal, posted previously in the Orlick thread
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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
This is irrelevant to the question of whether the skates you mention were specifically designed for hockey. Clearly they were playing hockey on the ice, using skates, by that time. But you're talking about a particular type of skate, and asserting that it was intended for hockey. You have not demonstrated this.
Thank you Iain, exactly, that was of course irrelevant to the question.
I haven't seen anything yet that contradicts what I've said - The first specific skates for hockey were made in Sheffield 1881 (at the latest). So far we have no contemporary source saying that the Forbes Acme skates in any way were patented with hockey in mind. No one is disputing the fact that they were used by hockey players. I am not saying that specific skates made for hockey weren't made before 1881, I just haven't seen any earlier hockey skates than the ones I mentioned. Please C58, you are more than welcome to show me an earlier example. I think that would be great and a revelation to us hockey historians.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Would you be referring to these skates made in Britain?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
Do those skates have "S.H." on the blade? If not, these are not the skates he's referring to.
Thanks again Iain, you are absolutely correct, I was referring to the ones stamped "S.H." on the blade.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
1841 Prince Albert - skating almost drowned. No reference to playing Ice Hockey
No, that particular article you looked at didn't mention it, and it wasn't anything I was referring to either, so I have no idea why you mentioned that specific article. In 1841 we know that Prince Albert was given a gold hockey stick, as a companion to a toy skate that he was wearing on his button hole. It was given to him for his "hurling feats on the ice" - Reported by the London newspaper The Argus on January 17, 1841.

The first time that his hockey feats were mentioned was a game on the Frogmore lake on December 31, 1846.
This was for example reported in the weekly London magazine, John Bull on January 2, 1847

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Patent laws vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction. One of the basics is filing a petition or application for a patent that provides the greatest protection. The patent holder cannot control post purchase use of a product so specifying to an activity would significantly weaken a patent. File for Ice Skates since filing for ICE Hockey Skates would allow someone with a minor modification to file for a patent for Non-Hockey Ice Skates circumventing the original patent while knowing that the resulting product could be sold and used for Ice Hockey regardless.
Irrelevant, the fact remains. Hockey wasn't mentioned anywhere in that Forbes Acme skate patent process, thus we can't say that they were skates made specifically for hockey. MOD

But I'll say it again. This is just from what we know today. Maybe one day, someone will find a contemporary source (an ad or an article) that will prove me wrong. No one would be happier than me if that happened, because it would mean that we've learned something new that wasn't previously known (with certainty).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Rotter View Post
My point was the word "hockey" came very late to Nova Scotia. Not playing a hockey-like game on ice, just the word to describe it. So someone who would patent a skate for a hockey-like game on ice in Nova Scotia in the 1860s would probably not use the term "hockey".
Ok, thanks for clarifying what you ment, Point well taken.

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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Let's try to focus more on the origins of this great sport - particularly the England vs Canada angle - and less on proving each other wrong about points that are only somewhat related.
I agree with you, but sometimes it is important to set the record straight, like when someone incorrectly talks about the "1866 patented ice hockey skate".
Casual hockey fans might actually believe that is a true statement.


Last edited by Fugu: 07-26-2014 at 07:21 PM. Reason: let's not infer intent
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07-26-2014, 04:45 PM
  #274
Theokritos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Rotter View Post
So someone who would patent a skate for a hockey-like game on ice in Nova Scotia in the 1860s would probably not use the term "hockey".
But it's not as if any other term for a hockey-like game (shinny, hurley, ricket) was used either, right? No reference to a stick-and-ball game at all by Forbes.

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07-26-2014, 04:53 PM
  #275
Iain Fyffe
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What we do and do not call ice hockey has a significant bearing on this discussion. Since the release of On the Origin of Hockey, in discussions with more than one historian in SIHR I have seen attempts at narrowing the definition of hockey, with the only apparent goal being to maintain Montreal's position as the one ond only true birthplace of hockey. Suddenly it's important that ice hockey must be played indoors, or only by a certain number of players, whereas before the information on the games in England was available this was not considered important. As such there are revealed to not be attempts to define hockey, but to define ice hockey as being only that version of the game that originated in Montreal.


Last edited by Iain Fyffe: 07-26-2014 at 04:55 PM. Reason: typo
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