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Hockey Invented In England ... Not Canada

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07-27-2014, 06:32 PM
  #301
Uncle Rotter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
^^^ Yes, that all makes sense RGO. Essentially the same game early on but with regional variations even within the UK let alone country~country. Bandy (or variations thereof) a fore~runner to what we would more classically call hockey in North America which developed as an off-shoot to Bandy. Not unlike say Alpine or Downhill developing from Nordic or Cross Country Skiing with further specialties & refinements along with developments & differences in everything from equipment to competitive rules & regulations in both disciplines along with all of the off-shoots & permutations. Different terrain & fields of play but some similarities still remaining. Some shared skill sets for sure.... So with hockey gaining popularity & demarcation lines becoming more apparent, they form an organization to create & constitute formal rules & so on, overseeing competition etc. Rather like the FIS in forming a Freestyle Skiing or Ski Acrobtatique Division in overseeing that discipline back in the 70's only in that case as with all of the skiing discplines under one umbrella, the Federation International Ski rather than separate organizations altogether as is the case with Hockey & Bandy.
Both bandy and hockey were under the same federation umbrella at first. The LIGH held the European Bandy Champonships in 1913.

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07-27-2014, 06:58 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Uncle Rotter View Post
The LIGH held the European Bandy Champonships in 1913.
Or maybe they didn't:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Gordon Orr View Post
I have personally gone through local libraries in the Graubünden area in and around Davos, and believe me, if a European Bandy Championship had been held there, the local newspapers would have written about it. They wrote a lot when international ice hockey teams came to Davos, St.Moritz or any other nearby venue.

Nothing was mentioned about it. You also have to ask yourself why there are no results available, and why there are no contemporary sources (newspapers, photos, etc,etc). There is plenty of information available on early European Championships (Ice Hockey), but magically enough nothing about this phantom tournament.
Your first sentence is certainly true though.

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07-27-2014, 06:58 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Uncle Rotter View Post
Both bandy and hockey were under the same federation umbrella at first. The LIGH held the European Bandy Champonships in 1913.
Interesting. I see on-line the Federation International Bandy was founded in 1955 (Canada joining in 1983). So do you know if Bandy was still under the purview of the IIHF or LIGH from 1913/55? Or did the sport languish, breakdown to regional & highly localized games between the two Wars & into the 50's I wonder.... Ive read the Russians, Norwegians, Swedes, Finns & Dutch were playing it in the 20's & 30's.

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07-27-2014, 07:43 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Interesting. I see on-line the Federation International Bandy was founded in 1955 (Canada joining in 1983). So do you know if Bandy was still under the purview of the IIHF or LIGH from 1913/55? Or did the sport languish, breakdown to regional & highly localized games between the two Wars & into the 50's I wonder.... Ive read the Russians, Norwegians, Swedes, Finns & Dutch were playing it in the 20's & 30's.
After hockey was added to the Olympics the LIGH probably did nothing to advance to game of Bandy. The founding of the Bandy federation was probably a result of Bandy being a demonstration sport at the 1952 Olympics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandy_a...inter_Olympics

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07-27-2014, 07:49 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Robert Gordon Orr View Post
In the early years hockey and bandy was synonymous and seen as the same game.
True. This is discussed at some length in On the Origin of Hockey.

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07-27-2014, 07:56 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by Uncle Rotter View Post
After hockey was added to the Olympics the LIGH probably did nothing to advance to game of Bandy.
The question is: did the LIHG ever do anything to advance bandy? "Bandy" was nothing more than one of two existing varieties of ice hockey (the one played with a ball as opposed to the one with a disc) as far as Europe was concerned in the early 20th century. When the first European Championship was organized by the LIHG in 1909-1910 they already had to make the decision: disc or ball? They choose the game with the disc.

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07-27-2014, 08:54 PM
  #307
Robert Gordon Orr
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Originally Posted by Uncle Rotter View Post
Both bandy and hockey were under the same federation umbrella at first. The LIGH held the European Bandy Champonships in 1913.
Nope, there was no European Bandy Championships played in 1913. Unfortunately, this is a myth that is hard to erase.
I am not going into the details at this point, but there was no such championship.

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07-27-2014, 09:13 PM
  #308
Iain Fyffe
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Originally Posted by Robert Gordon Orr View Post
Nope, there was no European Bandy Championships played in 1913. Unfortunately, this is a myth that is hard to erase.
I am not going into the details at this point, but there was no such championship.
But...wikipedia says there was!

And they have references!

Of course, all of the references are to other websites which themselves have no references, but come on. What do you want, demonstrable facts?

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07-27-2014, 10:30 PM
  #309
Robert Gordon Orr
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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
But...wikipedia says there was!

And they have references!

Of course, all of the references are to other websites which themselves have no references, but come on. What do you want, demonstrable facts?
There are no contemporary references available, because this tournament did not take place. Look at the available references, they are laughable.

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07-27-2014, 10:35 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Robert Gordon Orr View Post
There are no contemporary references available, because this tournament did not take place. Look at the available references, they are laughable.
If it is a myth, why is it so popular?

Popular enough that a 100 year anniversary match was held?

http://www.worldbandy.com/news.asp?n...k%20in%20Davos
http://www.bandysidan.nu/tavlinginfo...rak=eng&land=3

(And yes, I know you know about the anniversary match since it was in the "laughable" wikipedia article)

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07-27-2014, 11:00 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
If it is a myth, why is it so popular?
As popular as Abner Doubleday inventing baseball in Cooperstown?

You seem to quite literally be making an appeal to popularity, which is a logical fallacy. The fact that lots of people believe something does not make it true. There is no contemporary evidence for this 1913 tournament. You don't have to take Mr. Orr's word for it. The two European authors of On the Origin of Hockey have also researched this claim and have found nothing whatsoever to corroborate it. To quote one of them: "One thing is for sure, no European Bandy Championship was held in 1913. We have gone through many newspapers from that year, including local newspapers, and nothing was mentioned about it."

The stunning lack of detail is a big clue. One source claims it was in January, another in February. No actual dates for the games are provided, no scores, no nothing. Apparently it originated with a Swedish bandy journalist who wrote about it in the 1970s, and the claim has been perpetuated since then. I've asked for clarification if this author was being intentionally deceptive or just misguided.

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07-27-2014, 11:45 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
If it is a myth, why is it so popular?

Popular enough that a 100 year anniversary match was held?

http://www.worldbandy.com/news.asp?n...k%20in%20Davos
http://www.bandysidan.nu/tavlinginfo...rak=eng&land=3

(And yes, I know you know about the anniversary match since it was in the "laughable" wikipedia article)
Interestingly, since you got me back onto the bandy-related wiki pages, I was reminded of this tidbit:

"After the war was over, International Olympic Committee included ice hockey to the 1920 Summer Olympics instead of bandy. This was because bandy was totally unknown in North America.[3]"

Why I find that interesting, is that we're talking 1913 and 1920 here, and bandy is being referred to as "totally unknown" in North America. Now, we know that's not true in absolute terms because of soldier migration (and the "Cambridge connection"), but it suggests that Canadian hockey players in the 1850s-70s weren't necessarily adapting or relying on any bandy-related expertise, knowledge, or experience when playing hockey - "birth" (as Killion might say) if not conception. Hockey seems to have always been more like field hockey on ice than soccer with a stick on ice like bandy. I still find it interesting that the English rules of bandy didn't get codified until almost a decade after hockey, and that the hockey federation presided over international bandy after that.

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07-27-2014, 11:51 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
I still find it interesting that the English rules of bandy didn't get codified until almost a decade after hockey, and that the hockey federation presided over international bandy after that.
Up until a certain point, bandy and hockey were synonymous, so any written hockey rules could also be called bandy rules.

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07-28-2014, 12:15 AM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
Up until a certain point, bandy and hockey were synonymous, so any written hockey rules could also be called bandy rules.
Maybe as "Russian" hockey, which kind of obviously derives from the idea of field hockey on ice. The convergence of that and "football [soccer] with a stick on ice" (bandy) long after either was "invented" certainly muddies the waters. And of course, in 1875, the English speaking world referred to the "original" 1875 bandy match as "hockey on the ice". Also interesting (but logical, given the field hockey roots from Russia meeting the football roots from England):

"Before Canadians introduced ice hockey into Europe in the late 19th century, "hockey" was another name for bandy."

But as for the rules, from the wiki:

"A game that could be recognized as essentially modern bandy was played in Russia by the early 18th century, although the rules used differed from those that were invented in England at a much later date."

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07-28-2014, 12:40 AM
  #315
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
But as for the rules, from the wiki:

"A game that could be recognized as essentially modern bandy was played in Russia by the early 18th century, although the rules used differed from those that were invented in England at a much later date."
I note a decided lack of a reference for that passage.

I did find a passage from this book that says a game "resembling modern bandy" was played in England as early as the 1100s. Too bad these writers use such a vague word as "resemble". The wiki reference claims the rules were different, but doesn't say how they were different.

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07-28-2014, 12:49 AM
  #316
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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
As popular as Abner Doubleday inventing baseball in Cooperstown?

You seem to quite literally be making an appeal to popularity, which is a logical fallacy. The fact that lots of people believe something does not make it true. There is no contemporary evidence for this 1913 tournament. You don't have to take Mr. Orr's word for it. The two European authors of On the Origin of Hockey have also researched this claim and have found nothing whatsoever to corroborate it. To quote one of them: "One thing is for sure, no European Bandy Championship was held in 1913. We have gone through many newspapers from that year, including local newspapers, and nothing was mentioned about it."

The stunning lack of detail is a big clue. One source claims it was in January, another in February. No actual dates for the games are provided, no scores, no nothing. Apparently it originated with a Swedish bandy journalist who wrote about it in the 1970s, and the claim has been perpetuated since then. I've asked for clarification if this author was being intentionally deceptive or just misguided.
I'm not making an appeal to anything. I was asking a simple question. A question that you didn't even try to answer until the middle of your last paragraph. But anyway, thanks for (eventually) getting around to addressing my question.

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07-28-2014, 01:31 AM
  #317
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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
I note a decided lack of a reference for that passage.

I did find a passage from this book that says a game "resembling modern bandy" was played in England as early as the 1100s. Too bad these writers use such a vague word as "resemble". The wiki reference claims the rules were different, but doesn't say how they were different.
Yeah, me too. Thought it was interesting, since I'm pretty sure I've seen something, somewhere, about bandy being "introduced" to Russia in 1898 (pretty specific for something whose definition seems so nebulous), so whatever the similarities seem to be from reading a vague description many years after the fact, watching live must have revealed pretty fundamental differences.

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07-28-2014, 05:34 AM
  #318
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Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
But...wikipedia says there was!

And they have references!

Of course, all of the references are to other websites which themselves have no references, but come on. What do you want, demonstrable facts?
To be fair, no-one who didn't research the Swiss newspapers of 1912-1913 would have had any reason to doubt the claims about the 1913 Bandy tournament. I didn't, I'm sure you didn't and I guess the original researcher himself didn't necessarily have much doubt either before going through the libraries.

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07-28-2014, 05:57 AM
  #319
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Tl;dr

So did we Canadians invent it or not???

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07-28-2014, 06:37 AM
  #320
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Yeah, me too. Thought it was interesting, since I'm pretty sure I've seen something, somewhere, about bandy being "introduced" to Russia in 1898 (pretty specific for something whose definition seems so nebulous), so whatever the similarities seem to be from reading a vague description many years after the fact, watching live must have revealed pretty fundamental differences.
The first "official" game is said to have been played on March 8, 1898 between local St.Petersburg men.
They played seven aside, "Black team" against the "White team". It is said that they played nine period like games.
The black team won five "games" and the white four.

A year later, both the world figure skating champion (Lebedev) and the World speedskating champion (Pashin) were part of a team that played a game against Scottish cotton mill workers. (in St.Petersburg)

Russia is an interesting subject. We know that the Grand Duke of Russia, and future Czar, Alexander III Alexandrovich was really fond of playing hockey/bandy way back in the early 1860s. In fact, many members of the Royal family were enthusiastic skaters and liked to play hockey/bandy.

St.Petersburg has a great tradition. There was a strong English and Scottish influence present in the late 19th and early 20th century.
Several local teams had players from Great Britain on their rosters. In the early 20th century, the sport was very popular and they had one of the best teams in Europe (St.Petersburger Eislaufverein). Unfortunately many of the players were later killed during the Russian revolution.

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07-28-2014, 06:42 AM
  #321
Theokritos
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
the hockey federation presided over international bandy
They didn't "preside over international bandy" in that sense I think. They just presided over ice hockey which some in Europe happened to play with a ball and others with a puck.

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07-28-2014, 07:10 AM
  #322
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Maybe as "Russian" hockey
Hockey and bandy were generally synonymous in Europe in the 19th and the early 20th century. Originally played with either a ball or a disc in England, depending on one's preference and on availability I suppose. The game with the ball codified & exported to the Continent. Known as (ice) hockey or bandy there. Then the Canadian game with the puck started to spread in Europe and people introduced qualifiers to mark the difference. "Hockey with the ball" or "bandy" vs "hockey with the disc" or "Canadian hockey". In Russia the term "Russian hockey" was coined to distinguish between the established game and the Canadian puck game.

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07-28-2014, 07:53 AM
  #323
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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
To be fair, no-one who didn't research the Swiss newspapers of 1912-1913 would have had any reason to doubt the claims about the 1913 Bandy tournament. I didn't, I'm sure you didn't and I guess the original researcher himself didn't necessarily have much doubt either before going through the libraries.
I disagree - there's plenty of reason to doubt based on the available information, or rather the lack thereof. The lack of any dates or scores for the matches, for example.

Here's an email response I received will some more detail about the claim:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl Gidén
Iain,

The myth is from "Bandy genom ĺren" ("Bandy through the years") published by the Swedish Bandy Federation in 1975.

One chapter in this work was written by the Swedish bandy historian Ĺke Dunér - he claims that a European Bandy Championship was held at Davos in 1913. The participating teams should have been; England (winners), Belgium, France, Holland, Italy, Switzerland and Germany.

No sources are given

This tournament is not mentioned in the quite extensive Swedish Bandy literature between 1913 and 1975 - neither in any contemporary Swedish newspaper or sports magazine.

As you know we have also made a careful research regarding hockey/bandy in contemporary newspapers and sports magazines from most countries in Europe pre 1920 - including all the countries that are supposed to have participated in this tournament - and some information on this EC is not found anywhere.

It is worth mentioning that Bandy was not played in Belgium, France, Holland or Italy in 1913

So it is definitley a hoax

We have been wondering if this was a "Roller hockey/bandy tournament" - as Roller Hockey was quite popular in Europe at this time - but neither such a tournament is mentioned anywhere in contemporary sources - an believe me we have searched

It is a pity that this false information flourishes at the internet - and we have no idea what Mr Dunér bases his claim on

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07-28-2014, 07:54 AM
  #324
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I'm not making an appeal to anything. I was asking a simple question. A question that you didn't even try to answer until the middle of your last paragraph. But anyway, thanks for (eventually) getting around to addressing my question.
Well, the direct answer to your question is not terribly difficult or interesting: lots of people believe lots of untrue things. They read it in a book, and even if that book does not provide any sources it is often swallowed whole.

Sorry, your original question really came across as being a rhetorical question rather than a real one. I think the Doubleday comparison is very apt, on the 100th anniversary of his purported invention of baseball, the Hall of Fame was dedicated in Cooperstown. It does not take evidence to make an idea very popular.


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07-28-2014, 07:55 AM
  #325
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Tl;dr

So did we Canadians invent it or not???
Invent what exactly? That's kind of the crux of the issue. There's not just one thing that can be called hockey.

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