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Hockey Invented In England ... Not Canada

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08-08-2014, 09:16 PM
  #576
Canadiens1958
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Goodnight Irene

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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... thanks habs. And no, Im in no way trying to be provocative, launching sailing ships that wont sail or planes that wont fly. Just seems to me that yes, absent actual hard proof (as of yet) that the game we know today as casual pickup hockey's been around for a lot longer than 1870's Montreal where the first recorded game WITH Rules was played in North America. This whole discussion not unlike the debate over Rock n' Roll. That purportedly it was "invented" in 1951 with the release of a song called Rocket 88.

Yet it was based on an earlier, 1947 release called Cadillac Boogie, and Cadillac Boogie based on even earlier recordings by Chicago & Mississippi Delta Blues artists & tunes going back to the 1920's. Blues artists inspired by Gospel & Bluegrass going back to the Civil War. Ethnically, that music influenced by African Rhythm. As Little Richard once said, "the Blues had an illegitimate Baby & named it Rock n' Roll". In actual fact Rock n' Roll emerged from a variety & wide range of musical genres. Country, Western, Country&Western, Bluegrass, Gospel, Big Band, Swing, Jive, Jazz, Acid Jazz, Classical etc and ya, big time the Blues.

The origins of hockey no different. An amalgamation of various genres/games. If you listen to music, say a 1922 recording by Trixie Williams, Blues, theres no mistaking that. Its Rock n' Roll. Rudimentary but definitely Rock n' Roll. You consider what east coasters during early Colonization through the 19th Century called shinny as in Rickets though some Im certain called it hockey as well, that right there is shinny hockey based on what we do know about it which aint much but its enough. Not formal, informal. Am I absolutely 110% correct? Possibly not. And if Im wrong, gladly admit so. But for now, thats my belief.
Or the classic Goodnight Irene, Leadbelly dating back as early as 1908 or before, the thirties Leadbelly or the Weavers 1950 version.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodnight,_Irene

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08-08-2014, 09:17 PM
  #577
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Originally Posted by Killion View Post
... thanks habs. And no, Im in no way trying to be provocative, launching sailing ships that wont sail or planes that wont fly. Just seems to me that yes, absent actual hard proof (as of yet) that the game we know today as casual pickup hockey's been around for a lot longer than 1870's Montreal where the first recorded game WITH Rules was played in North America. This whole discussion not unlike the debate over Rock n' Roll. That purportedly it was "invented" in 1951 with the release of a song called Rocket 88.

Yet it was based on an earlier, 1947 release called Cadillac Boogie, and Cadillac Boogie based on even earlier recordings by Chicago & Mississippi Delta Blues artists & tunes going back to the 1920's. Blues artists inspired by Gospel & Bluegrass going back to the Civil War. Ethnically, that music influenced by African Rhythm. As Little Richard once said, "the Blues had an illegitimate Baby & named it Rock n' Roll". In actual fact Rock n' Roll emerged from a variety & wide range of musical genres. Country, Western, Country&Western, Bluegrass, Gospel, Big Band, Swing, Jive, Jazz, Acid Jazz, Classical etc and ya, big time the Blues.

The origins of hockey no different. An amalgamation of various genres/games. If you listen to music, say a 1922 recording by Trixie Williams, Blues, theres no mistaking that. Its Rock n' Roll. Rudimentary but definitely Rock n' Roll. You consider what east coasters during early Colonization through the 19th Century called shinny as in Rickets though some Im certain called it hockey as well, that right there is shinny hockey based on what we do know about it which aint much but its enough. Not formal, informal. Am I absolutely 110% correct? Possibly not. And if Im wrong, gladly admit so. But for now, thats my belief.
It makes perfect sense imo. Although, where does it stop? I'm sure if you went back a couple 100 years earlier you' probably find different region/cultures playing similar games.

To me, Hockey invented in England, not Canada, as the title suggests is a bit misleading.


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08-08-2014, 09:30 PM
  #578
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Or the classic Goodnight Irene, Leadbelly dating back as early as 1908 or before, the thirties Leadbelly or the Weavers 1950 version.
Oh ya, goes back even earlier than 1922 as cited. To the dawn of the recording arts & then before even that. Unrecorded? Where's your proof? Well, seeing as how these earliest artists couldnt read or write much less read or write music and didnt have connections to music publishers in New York City or Philadelphia then I guess this theory just dont hold water huh? That Bill Hailey "invented" Rock n' Roll with the release of Rock Around the Clock....
Awesome. First time that words used in a title ergo white man Bill Hailey invented Rock n' Roll. Groovy. And not buyin it. The term "rock" used lyrically for decades previously in poetry, lyrically, as a descriptor by practically every genre of musician.

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To me, Hockey invented in England, not Canada, as the title suggest is a bit misleading.
In fairness to authors thats really not what their claiming. Their suggestion is that the formal game, played with rules, that theyve come up with inf, recorded reports of the game being played in England that pre-dates the Montreal dates in the 1870's. The Reporter, Sun Newspaper Group, their the ones who used that by-line. Attention grabber & it works yes? Red & White Canadian, blood gunna squirt outta yer eyeballs when you see that. Say what?!

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08-09-2014, 12:36 AM
  #579
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I find the whole idea a bit foolish though, but the conversations stemming from them to be excellent. Whatever was played back in England probably wouldn't even be recognized today
As Theokritos indicated, neither would the hockey played in Montreal in the 1870s or 1880s. And this is why I tend to ask what do you mean by hockey, it's in response to a particular claim which may, or may not, be accurate depending on what they mean by hockey. So it's not my responsibility to define the term for someone else when they are making a statement about hockey; it's up to them to do so, so that everyone else knows what exactly they're talking about.

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08-09-2014, 12:38 AM
  #580
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To me, Hockey invented in England, not Canada, as the title suggests is a bit misleading.
The media playup has been somewhat misleading. But the point that, if you consider the game of March 3, 1875 in Montreal to be "hockey" (and not an informal game like shinny), then the evidence suggests that "hockey" was played in England before it was played in Canada.

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08-09-2014, 01:03 AM
  #581
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The media playup has been somewhat misleading. But the point that, if you consider the game of March 3, 1875 in Montreal to be "hockey" (and not an informal game like shinny), then the evidence suggests that "hockey" was played in England before it was played in Canada.
Un huh. Ands its irrelevant, a sensationalistic tag applied by a tabloid hack. Im sure the books great but I like to deal with reality, and my reality is that Lower Canadians from the Maritimes to Ottawa are the folks responsible for the game we love. Hockey was neither embraced nor popularized in England. A novelty sport. A fad played by Canadian & British Dilettante's who didnt have a clue & who subversively claimed ownership of that to which they were not entitled according to this hack writer who misses the point of the book entirely...

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08-09-2014, 01:11 AM
  #582
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Im sure the books great but I like to deal with reality, and my reality is that Lower Canadians from the Maritimes to Ottawa are the folks responsible for the game we love.
The book has loads of reality in it, in the form of evidence, which is generally how we determine what it reality and what is not.

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Hockey was neither embraced nor popularized in England. A novelty sport. A fad played by Canadian & British Dilettante's who didnt have a clue & who subversively claimed ownership of that to which they were not entitled according to this hack writer who misses the point of the book entirely...
Sorry, who has subversively claimed ownership? The English in the 1870s who played this novelty sport?

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08-09-2014, 01:24 AM
  #583
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The book has loads of reality in it, in the form of evidence, which is generally how we determine what it reality and what is not... Sorry, who has subversively claimed ownership? The English in the 1870s who played this novelty sport?
The book yes, the Page 3 Titillating Tabloid Writer, not so much Iain. But hey, the title by-line, grabz eyeballs huh? Name of the book is On the Origins of Hockey, the authors rightfully & respectfully making no pretense nor assumptions to absolutely nailing that down. As it is, the book is what I consider a curiosity. Rather like Steam Punk Art... which I very much enjoy. Eccentric.

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08-09-2014, 01:34 AM
  #584
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Name of the book is On the Origins of Hockey, the authors rightfully & respectfully making no pretense nor assumptions to absolutely nailing that down. As it is, the book is what I consider a curiosity.
Have you read the book yet?

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08-09-2014, 01:40 AM
  #585
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Have you read the book yet?
Why?

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08-09-2014, 04:07 AM
  #586
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Some nice curiosities about England have been found
Hockey in England certainly never took off like it did in Canada, no doubt about it, but whether you want to paint the recent discoveries as mere curiosities or as things worth more interest lies in the eye of the beholder.

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Just seems to me that yes, absent actual hard proof (as of yet) that the game we know today as casual pickup hockey's been around for a lot longer than 1870's Montreal
I haven't been following the dispute closely over the last week I admit, but is that even in doubt and questioned by anybody? That pickup hockey/ricket/whatever used to be played in different parts of Canada (especially the Maritimes) prior to the 1870s? I'm not sure (anymore) what the dispute is actually about.

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08-09-2014, 09:50 AM
  #587
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Why?
Because you characterized the book, which I suggest that you cannot fairly do without having read it. You say it's "a curiosity" - but if you have not read it, how could you know what it is?

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08-09-2014, 09:56 AM
  #588
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I haven't been following the dispute closely over the last week I admit, but is that even in doubt and questioned by anybody? That pickup hockey/ricket/whatever used to be played in different parts of Canada (especially the Maritimes) prior to the 1870s? I'm not sure (anymore) what the dispute is actually about.
Indeed, I don't think anyone has disputed that some form of hitting a thing with a stick while on ice, and even while on skates, was played from an indeterminate time. Not just in Canada but elsewhere.

You last point is a good one. I'm not sure what the dispute is either. I think some people are taking the media headlines as being reflective of what's written in the book, which they are not. Nowhere in the book does it say that Canada had no involvement in the development and popularization of early organized hockey, indeed it states quite the opposite.

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08-09-2014, 11:38 AM
  #589
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I haven't been following the dispute closely over the last week I admit, but is that even in doubt and questioned by anybody? That pickup hockey/ricket/whatever used to be played in different parts of Canada (especially the Maritimes) prior to the 1870s?.
Why dont you read the posts then Theo? You tell me.

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Because you characterized the book, which I suggest that you cannot fairly do without having read it. You say it's "a curiosity" - but if you have not read it, how could you know what it is?
Iain, absolutely my own or anyone else's prerogative to do just that. The subject matter itself is arcane, a curiosity. Having read reviews on the book & listened to/watched the interviews with the authors, followed the posts here & engaged in the conversation including having the benefit of one of the researchers & authors of the book doing same, no problem. Its pretty clear what the books about, and I look forward to reading it cover~cover. If buying & reading the book is a prerequisite to the Membership here at hf Boards before they come here & post whatever, then this thread would never have been opened. Anyone suggesting that any Member shouldnt opine on anything here until theyve read the book or that their opinion is therefore somehow lesser for not having done so is way off~base. Now, your not suggesting that are you Iain? That only those who have purchased book are allowed to have opinion on the History of Hockey & the premise of this book, who's thesis is really rather clear & not hard to follow nor understand. You know, when Stephen Harpers book came out, reviewed widely, years to write it, Rosie Dimanno of the Toronto Star gives it a glowing review with comments like "steeped in the arcane details that would undoubtedly captivate a guy who got his Masters in Economics at the University of Calgary" along with "and a card carrying member of the obscure Society for International Hockey Research" and so on. So yes. The subject matter of Harpers book and this one, obscure, arcane & appealing to a relatively narrow band of readership. A curiosity. Great. Good for the authors, thanks to the SIHR.

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I'm not sure what the dispute is either.
.... Oh Brother. Now that is hilarious. You create & start the disputes and now claim ignorance? Please. Stahp.


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08-10-2014, 08:51 AM
  #590
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The Halifax Hockey Club Rules

What do we know about them?

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For years I’ve been puzzled by the so called “Halifax Rules”. As far as I know, no contemporary sources have been found with any so called “Halifax Rules”.

Did they even exist ? It certainly seems that they did.
In the December 1, 1877 issue of the McGill University Gazette, it was mentioned that:

“…the rules of hockey (The Halifax Hockey Club Rules as they are called) are modelled after the football rules. “offside” is strictly kept. “Charging” in anyway but from behind is allowed and so on…”

Why would someone in the 1877 issue of the McGill University Gazette mention anything about Halifax Rules, a Halifax Hockey Club if they didn’t exist ?
Right, an invention doesn't seem very likely. If we assume the Dec 1877 issue is right then doesn't that also provide the claim that organized hockey/ricket was played in Halifax in the 1860s with more credibility? Granted, we're still lacking the contemporary sources from Nova Scotia we need.

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I suspect that it might have been Creighton who wrote that piece in the McGill University Gazette.
In late February 1877 the Montreal rules had been published. Isn't it a bit surprising that nine months later someone in Montreal is referring to the Halifax rules (and not to the new home-made Montreal rules) as "the rules of hockey"? (No matter who wrote that piece in the University Gazette.)

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Was James Creighton aware of any Halifax Rules when he left for Montreal in 1872 ?
If there were Halifax Rules in place by 1872 it's hard to imagine he wouldn't have been aware of them.

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When was the Halifax Hockey Club founded ?
There is no way to tell at the moment. Obviously not later than 1877 and likely not before 1863 since the term "hockey" doesn't seem to have been part of Nova Scotian vocabulary prior to that. (And [by coincidence?] the covered Halifax rink was built in 1863.)

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08-10-2014, 11:18 AM
  #591
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Not only do we not currently have any contemporary Nova Scotia references [edit: to anything called the Halifax rules, or the Halifax Hockey Club], the one Montreal reference we have seems contradictory to what we do know about the NS version of the game, since the McGill story states that that offside was strictly kept. References to ricket, and the NS hockey played in the 1880s indicate that it was not an onside game.


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08-10-2014, 12:05 PM
  #592
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Also the reference states that the rules were modeled on football, which is ultimately what the Montreal rules were based on as well.
Oh? Clarify please. Its your contention along with a great deal of others that in fact the Montreal Rules are based on the game of Field Hockey, Creighton copying, lifting & borrowing verbatim the rules from a copy of the British FH Rule Book. Indeed, you yourself have been adamant that Rugy~Football played either no part or a very small part in influencing the development of the game & the Rules. Perhaps Im just "confused" by your language or references, context. But as per the bolded, what other interpretation is one to take from such a contradictory statement?

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08-10-2014, 01:48 PM
  #593
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Not only do we not currently have any contemporary Nova Scotia references, the one Montreal reference we have seems contradictory to what we do know about the NS version of the game, since the McGill story states that that offside was strictly kept. References to ricket, and the NS hockey played in the 1880s indicate that it was not an onside game.

Also the reference states that the rules were modeled on football, which is ultimately what the Montreal rules were based on as well.

Not sure this is clear.

*You currently don't have any contemporary NS references?
*The single Montreal reference seems contradictory to multiple? NS references?

Are there contemporary references or not?

*There are references elsewhere to NS ricket and hockey in the 1880s that lead one to conclude it was not an onside game, but rules were based on football for both NS and Montreal versions-- based on which references?

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08-10-2014, 02:20 PM
  #594
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Oh? Clarify please. Its your contention along with a great deal of others that in fact the Montreal Rules are based on the game of Field Hockey, Creighton copying, lifting & borrowing verbatim the rules from a copy of the British FH Rule Book.
I'd say you should read my book, but then I've also pretty clearly explained this a number of times in this forum. The rules upon which the Hockey Association rules were based were the Association Football rules. The offside rule in particular is practically verbatim.

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Indeed, you yourself have been adamant that Rugy~Football played either no part or a very small part in influencing the development of the game & the Rules.
Association football, not rugby football.

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Perhaps Im just "confused" by your language or references, context.
Really?

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08-10-2014, 02:23 PM
  #595
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*There are references elsewhere to NS ricket and hockey in the 1880s that lead one to conclude it was not an onside game, but rules were based on football for both NS and Montreal versions-- based on which references?
The 1877 reference to the "Halifax Rules", written in Montreal, states that those rules were based on football. A story written in the McGill University Gazette is not a contemporary Nova Scotia reference.

All of the references to Nova Scotia {ice hockey} of which I'm aware for the period from the 1860s to the 1880s suggest it was not an onside game. After the Old Chebuctos returned from their trip to Montreal in 1889, the onside Montreal version of the game begane to take over in Nova Scotia.

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08-10-2014, 02:59 PM
  #596
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I'd say you should read my book... Really?
... ya, "really". And looks like huh? Mandatory I guess in order to engage you in a conversation without apparently making erroneous conclusions. "See my book". And that position Im afraid isnt acceptable. If your going to state something empirically, refute the positions of others who have indeed suggested on numerous occasions that Rugby/Football (and kindly explain the difference here of Association Football Rules & Rugby Football, and how its your contention as I understand it that Rugby in no way influenced nor is it even relevant to the development of the game & conversation) then do please explain. Rivers of debate under that bridge as a result of this difference of opinion between not only you & I but several others here on the History of Hockey Board in previous threads.

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08-10-2014, 03:09 PM
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... ya, "really". And looks like huh? Mandatory I guess in order to engage you in a conversation without apparently making erroneous conclusions. "See my book". And that position Im afraid isnt acceptable.
It seems you may have intentionally snipped out the part of the post where I said that I would say that but I don't have to because I've actually explained this to you several times in different threads this year. It seems like you're (mod) misintepreting what I'm saying.

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...refute the positions of others who have indeed suggested on numerous occasions that Rugby/Football (and kindly explain the difference here of Association Football Rules & Rugby Football, and how its your contention as I understand it that Rugby in no way influenced nor is it even relevant to the development of the game & conversation) then do please explain.
What, again? I'll tell you what. If someone else asks me to do so, I will. But I have explained this to you directly before, and it seems to have had no effect, so I'm not gong to take the time to do it again.

And then there's the issue of shifting the burden of proof. If someone wants to assert that rugby had a significant influence then it's up to them to demonstrate that, not up to me to refute it. The association football influence is made clear by the verbatim use of the rules.

And are you really asking what the difference is between association football (soccer) and rugby? (mod)


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08-10-2014, 03:49 PM
  #598
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And then there's the issue of shifting the burden of proof. If someone wants to assert that rugby had a significant influence then it's up to them to demonstrate that, not up to me to refute it. The association football influence is made clear by the verbatim use of the rules.
Yet refute it, and quite adamantly you have, do & no doubt will continue to so and that is your prerogative... So. Back to the NS Rules, what "proof" exactly do you have that bolsters your claims that soccer or English Football (never mind the varietals from Scotland & Ireland, I can see where that will lead us, and lets not pay any mind to the fact that the denizens of the Maritimes & Lower Canada including Montreal of course were predominantly Scots/Irish immigrants), "Association Football" in and of itself exclusive of Rugby~Football was the main, major and ONLY foundation upon which these mythical (thus far like trying to find the Holy Grail apparently, and maybe requiring the intervention of the Knights Templar & the Masons, Dan Brown on the case) Halifax Rules were based? We are speculating Iain. You, me, everyone. Guesswork. A mystery. Fun stuff. Lets make sure we keep it so.

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08-10-2014, 03:53 PM
  #599
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Really?
I wasn't aware you were referring to association football either, so yeah, I was also confused by the wording.

Being the originator of this thread (but not a mod of course) I kindly ask everybody who is involved to not repeat fruitless disputes from the "Hockey Invented..." thread, especially if the arguments are not required in the context of this thread with its more specific and limited topic.

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the one Montreal reference we have seems contradictory to what we do know about the NS version of the game, since the McGill story states that that offside was strictly kept. References to ricket, and the NS hockey played in the 1880s indicate that it was not an onside game.
Thanks. Are later claims about the Halifax rules (like the 1943 Weston claim) consistent in pointing towards the forward pass or are there contradictory statements too?

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08-10-2014, 03:56 PM
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Iain, you've posted a lot of snippets from your research over the past few weeks, scattered in different posts in different threads. It really shouldn't be that surprising that people sometimes miss things or misremember things. I'm trying to follow, but sometimes it's tough, so perhaps just linking to a previous post where you said something would be helpful if you are questioned about something you already explained?

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