HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie
Notices

The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Hockey Invented In England ... Not Canada

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-02-2014, 02:40 PM
  #126
Gary Gillman
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 67
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
I've just posted something relevant to this discussion in a new thread, here.
That is very helpful and I perused it and find the logic persuasive. However, on the current topic of whether hockey emerged as a name for bandy around London in the 1700`s, the more I read in Google Books, the more I am convinced that England long knew hockey under that name before the 1760`s. This article is from 1767:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=eDEC...hockey&f=false

It is a very interesting description of field hockey, the essentials of which are very similar to ice hockey as it is played today. A bung or India rubber ball is suggested as the best propellant. There is no suggestion here to call the ball or puck the hockey, that was surely a later usage of loose language by a casual writer or a contraction of `hockey ball`or `hockey bung`. The way this confident writer writes, hockey was an old sport in England, not just in London. He refers to hurling and shinty as names given a similar game in the `sister kingdoms` of Scotland and Ireland. There is no suggestion that hockey is a relatively new term in England, on the contrary the impression is given it is an old one. He states that in the last generation games of hockey - he uses the term hurling only to describe such games when played by people of Irish origin residing in London - were played not just in Kennington Common where the Irish residents played it but elsewhere in open spaces in London and in other parts of the country (meaning England). If bandy was so generalized and hockey non-existent until some mysterious galvanizing event in the 1700`s, this writer would have mentioned this.

Apart from this, there is the recollection from the early 1800`s of an Etonian that hockey is a very old game associated with the school - no reference to bandy or other names (I assume this reference is in the new book as probably the 1767 article I mention above, if not I can provide the reference).

Finally again the West Sussex playing of `hawkey`, seems decisive to me. Yes it is from the 1880`s but I cannot imagine - this is an interpretation of evidence - that the same game did not exist for 200 years and more under that name. An historical or (perhaps here) antiquarian book is written to attest to old practices, not new. 40 miles may not seem that far but in England at that time 40 miles was like being half-way across the world. An example of this is from Holloway`s very book where in the introduction he states that the local speech was so distinctive it could sometimes not be understood outside the county. I cannot imagine a bucolic area such as this receiving influence from London-area old boys, it does not make sense.

I do believe this is my last comment until I read the new book. I did walk over yesterday to our local bookshop but they don't have it in yet. It is tops on my bucket list though and I will add any further thoughts after a careful reading. I do compliment the authors for undertaking such an initiative. It is a fascinating question that deserves careful study and it is great that they have done this. Kudos all round and to Iain and the other knowledgeable people who have contributed their thoughts here, it is all grist for the mill and will, hopefully, advance the discussion!

Gary


Last edited by Gary Gillman: 06-02-2014 at 02:55 PM.
Gary Gillman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-02-2014, 03:14 PM
  #127
Uncle Rotter
Registered User
 
Uncle Rotter's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Kelowna, B.C.
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,030
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Gillman View Post
That is very helpful and I perused it and find the logic persuasive. However, on the current topic of whether hockey emerged as a name for bandy around London in the 1700`s, the more I read in Google Books, the more I am convinced that England long knew hockey under that name before the 1760`s. This article is from 1767:

http://books.google.ca/books?id=eDEC...hockey&f=false
It's from 1867

Uncle Rotter is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-02-2014, 03:19 PM
  #128
Iain Fyffe
Hockey fact-checker
 
Iain Fyffe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Fredericton, NB
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,509
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Gillman View Post
However, on the current topic of whether hockey emerged as a name for bandy around London in the 1700`s, the more I read in Google Books, the more I am convinced that England long knew hockey under that name before the 1760`s. This article is from 1767:
Is it? As far as I can tell, the publisher of that book (John Cassell) wasn't even born until 1817, and the partnership that published that book did not exist until 1859.

Edit: as pointed out above, it seems to be 1867, not 1767.


Last edited by Iain Fyffe: 06-02-2014 at 03:19 PM. Reason: Ninja'd.
Iain Fyffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-02-2014, 03:22 PM
  #129
Gary Gillman
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 67
vCash: 500
Very helpful corrections and thanks for this. I relied on the description in the Google Books listing and didn't check further:

"books.google.ca/books?id=eDECAAAAQAAJ
Popular educator - 1767 - ‎Read - ‎More editions
HOCKEY. When tho frosts of winter have hardened tho ground, and tho air is keen and bracing, out-door amusements, to bo at onco enjoyable and beneficial, must be active and exhilarating in their nature. Hence the popularity in tho winter.".

Good to be cautious with dates (I try to be, generally). Does writing 100 years later affect my deductions? Maybe, certainly lots of people think something is immemorial when it has only happened in the last 50 years or so. However, taking all with all, I do feel hockey under that name must have been known in England between 1527 and 1763 including in Sussex while readily acknowledging there seems no direct proof of it.

Gary

Gary Gillman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-02-2014, 04:40 PM
  #130
Iain Fyffe
Hockey fact-checker
 
Iain Fyffe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Fredericton, NB
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,509
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Gillman View Post
However, taking all with all, I do feel hockey under that name must have been known in England between 1527 and 1763 including in Sussex while readily acknowledging there seems no direct proof of it.
Have you addressed the point that the 1527 reference is from Ireland and not England?

Iain Fyffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-02-2014, 06:03 PM
  #131
Gary Gillman
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 67
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
Have you addressed the point that the 1527 reference is from Ireland and not England?
Yes I have: Galway was settled by the same people who took over in England after 1066. They are peas in a pod from that standpoint. It's the same polity, "sister kingdoms" in the phrase of that 1867 article.

Gary

Gary Gillman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-02-2014, 06:50 PM
  #132
Iain Fyffe
Hockey fact-checker
 
Iain Fyffe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Fredericton, NB
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,509
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Gillman View Post
Yes I have: Galway was settled by the same people who took over in England after 1066. They are peas in a pod from that standpoint. It's the same polity, "sister kingdoms" in the phrase of that 1867 article.
But Galway is 10 times the distance from London as West Sussex is. How can you argue that a word cannot travel 70 km in 100 years, but that it can travel 650 km in 200 years?

Edit: You might mean that it was simply the same people who brought the word to London as brought it to Galway, specifically the Normans. It was apparently in the 1230s that the Normans invaded the Galway area - so you're pushing back even further without attestation.


Last edited by Iain Fyffe: 06-02-2014 at 07:01 PM. Reason: Further thoughts
Iain Fyffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-02-2014, 07:01 PM
  #133
Gary Gillman
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 67
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
But Galway is 10 times the distance from London as West Sussex is. How can you argue that a word cannot travel 70 km in 100 years, but that it can travel 650 km in 200 years?
It's a matter of culture, first and foremost, thus, distance is not relevant as such. The English drank heady Pale Ale in the unpropitious climate of India, a variant of ale that later became known around the world as India Pale Ale, because they loved their native beer, it didn't matter how far India was, and ship-traffic permitted the transfer easily (relatively). So, hocquet, I project, could easily travel that far and in this case it was much less.

It didn't need to travel back to England because the same people, the Normans, already had the term there - once again, a hypothesis but one I find persuasive.

Hockey, the term, didn't need to travel to Sussex from London, because the Sussex people already had it: if anything the traffic went the other way.

Gary


Last edited by Gary Gillman: 06-02-2014 at 07:10 PM.
Gary Gillman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-02-2014, 07:03 PM
  #134
Iain Fyffe
Hockey fact-checker
 
Iain Fyffe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Fredericton, NB
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,509
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Gillman View Post
Hockey, the term, didn't need to travel to Sussex from London, because the Sussex people already had it: if anything the traffic went the other way.
Bearing in mind, of course, that there is no evidence for this, so honestly I find it odd that you would assert it as if it were fact.

Iain Fyffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-02-2014, 07:07 PM
  #135
Killion
Global Moderator
 
Killion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 32,941
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
Bearing in mind, of course, that there is no evidence for this, so honestly I find it odd that you would assert it as if it were fact.
You find it an implausible hypothesis Iain?

Killion is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-02-2014, 07:13 PM
  #136
Gary Gillman
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 67
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
But Galway is 10 times the distance from London as West Sussex is. How can you argue that a word cannot travel 70 km in 100 years, but that it can travel 650 km in 200 years?

Edit: You might mean that it was simply the same people who brought the word to London as brought it to Galway, specifically the Normans. It was apparently in the 1230s that the Normans invaded the Galway area - so you're pushing back even further without attestation.
True. However, I believe hocquet had antecedents in Old French (Vieux Francais), and/or the movement of people over the Channel back and forth brought the game, and name, to England in the time when hocquet was part of Middle French. Once again, an interpretation of history, but one I find persuasive when compared to the alternate explanations I have heard.

Gary

Gary Gillman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-02-2014, 07:15 PM
  #137
Gary Gillman
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 67
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
Bearing in mind, of course, that there is no evidence for this, so honestly I find it odd that you would assert it as if it were fact.
I am not asserting it as fact, but as an opinion. All my statements here, as I said earlier, are my opinion based on what I've read and considered to date. By parallel reasoning, there is no evidence that London hockey terminology influenced the games of Sussex…

Gary

Gary Gillman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-02-2014, 10:51 PM
  #138
Iain Fyffe
Hockey fact-checker
 
Iain Fyffe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Fredericton, NB
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,509
vCash: 500
From A Dictionary of French and English Tongues, 1611, Randle Cotgrave:

Ameffonne (amessone) is translated into English as "Hooked, hookie, like a hooke."

So we have a 1611 dictionary listing "hookie" as synonymous with "hooked." Hookie is used twice more in that dictionary (in the translations of racrocher and recrocquebillage), in both cases also meaning a hooked shape or a bending. So in Early Modern English, it seems hookie did, in fact, simply mean hooked.

Edit: And the word hook has Anglo-Saxon etymology, so no Norman influence required.

Iain Fyffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-02-2014, 10:54 PM
  #139
Iain Fyffe
Hockey fact-checker
 
Iain Fyffe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Fredericton, NB
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,509
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
You find it an implausible hypothesis Iain?
There's a difference between plausible and justifiable. The hypothesis' proponent in this thread has admitted there's no evidence for it. As such it's more of a conjecture than a hypothesis anyway. Conclusions should follow the evidence, and the argument in favour of this idea seems to be that it could be true, despite a lack of evidence for it.

Iain Fyffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2014, 06:01 AM
  #140
Gary Gillman
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 67
vCash: 500
I am looking for explanations, things that make sense to me, and conjecture is fine, personal theory, whatever name is felt suitable. This is a forum to discuss opinions after all. When I look at the big picture: Normans come to England, they go to Galway where there is no Anglo-Saxon history, there is a field game in Normandy virtually the same as English field hockey, hocquet is a word known at least in Middle French, hawkey survives in Sussex which is a stone's throw from Normandy and underwent heavy Norman incursion, the idea about hocquet/hockey, advanced long before my time and to boot by English-speakers (not e.g. French etymologists, but by people in the English-speaking world), recommends itself to me. That's it, no more, no less, I am very glad if some people do not agree, it makes it interesting. I truly now will end my postings since I can't really think of anything more useful to say, will read the book - one I am very glad to see out there as I said before - and will post any thoughts it inspires later.

Point taken by the way about hooky as a noun in English. One can see that a spelling of "hooke" with a non-silent "e" would be pronounced that way by some. I was wondering more if the incomers from Europe who knew the Germanic hoc, from what is now Germany or environs, used a noun like that with a "y" ending. It did not seem likely to me but again I am no language expert.

Gary


Last edited by Gary Gillman: 06-03-2014 at 06:27 AM.
Gary Gillman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2014, 06:26 AM
  #141
Iain Fyffe
Hockey fact-checker
 
Iain Fyffe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Fredericton, NB
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,509
vCash: 500
So West Sussex to Normandy (less than 40 km) is "a stone's throw away", while West Sussex to London (less than 70 km) is "half a world away"? This is why I have trouble with your arguments, the reasoning is incongruous.

Iain Fyffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2014, 06:34 AM
  #142
Gary Gillman
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 67
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
So West Sussex to Normandy (less than 40 km) is "a stone's throw away", while West Sussex to London (less than 70 km) is "half a world away"? This is why I have trouble with your arguments, the reasoning is incongruous.
Okay Iain, one more sally, plus I wanted to say or really edit my previous remark that in old German, the term used for hook would probably be closer to the modern "haken" (not hoc as such).

Distance isn't absolute for anything, as I said earlier, if cultural ties exist, they can explain things over a short or long distance. The Normans physically implanted themselves close by, e.g., and notably Sussex, and far away, e.g., Galway (some were in England first probably but not for long since Galway was Normanized around 1100). Certainly hockey could come from London to Sussex if there was a reason. But I don't see the cultural connections - public school network in or around London to bucolic area 40 miles away where the vernacular is not comprehensible to many outside the county. Plus, I feel that the Sussex peasantry must have had the game and the term long before the 1700's.

You may have the last word and I shall return after reading the book!

Gary


Last edited by Gary Gillman: 06-03-2014 at 07:02 AM.
Gary Gillman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2014, 07:15 AM
  #143
Iain Fyffe
Hockey fact-checker
 
Iain Fyffe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Fredericton, NB
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,509
vCash: 500
Well, if there were no cultural ties, it would be odd that the Statute of Galway would be written in English, wouldn't it?

Hockey in London was not restricted to the public school network as you seem to imply. There is reference in the book of the game being enjoyed by royalty - I don't have it with me so I can't look it up.

Iain Fyffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2014, 10:32 AM
  #144
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 15,149
vCash: 500
Church of England

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Gillman View Post
Yes I have: Galway was settled by the same people who took over in England after 1066. They are peas in a pod from that standpoint. It's the same polity, "sister kingdoms" in the phrase of that 1867 article.

Gary
Except for the birth of the Anglican Church in Henry VIII's time in England, while Ireland maintained a solid Catholic influence.

Canadiens1958 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2014, 11:35 AM
  #145
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 17,553
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
IMO, this is the most compelling piece of evidence:

"* Letter from Charles Darwin, March 1, 1853, to son William, who had followed his father to Shrewsbury School: "My Dear Old Willy ... have you got a pretty good pond to skate on? I used to be very fond of playing at Hocky on the ice in skates.""

Something about the tone of that last line, it gives the impression that ice hockey games were a fairly regular and familiar event that didn't need much explaining.

And presumably, Charles' experiences would have taken place around the 1830s.
Actually it can be read differently, for example and it's obvious of course, we don't saw today that we are going to play hockey and then add on ice and with skates do we.

It very well could be a variation of field hockey played in the wintertime that a few guys did here or there.

The thread is very interesting and has a very "mom and apple pie " feel to it.

After all hockey is the national religion in Canada and to even suggest that maybe it was formed (in any organized sense) somewhere else is almost sacrilege.

The reality is that we have some clues and can guess but much has been lost to time.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2014, 02:02 PM
  #146
Gary Gillman
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 67
vCash: 500
It's me again, but simply to ask, does Iain or anyone know where I can buy this in Toronto? Indigo and Book World don't appear to have it as yet. Amazon lists it online but I'd like to get it today. Or is it available at the Hockey Hall of Fame? Thanks.

Gary

Gary Gillman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2014, 03:09 PM
  #147
Canadiens1958
Registered User
 
Canadiens1958's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 15,149
vCash: 500
Isbn

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Gillman View Post
It's me again, but simply to ask, does Iain or anyone know where I can buy this in Toronto? Indigo and Book World don't appear to have it as yet. Amazon lists it online but I'd like to get it today. Or is it available at the Hockey Hall of Fame? Thanks.

Gary
ISBN number would help.

Canadiens1958 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2014, 03:13 PM
  #148
Iain Fyffe
Hockey fact-checker
 
Iain Fyffe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Fredericton, NB
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,509
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Gillman View Post
It's me again, but simply to ask, does Iain or anyone know where I can buy this in Toronto? Indigo and Book World don't appear to have it as yet. Amazon lists it online but I'd like to get it today. Or is it available at the Hockey Hall of Fame? Thanks.
I believe it's only available online, at least at the moment.

Iain Fyffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2014, 07:02 PM
  #149
Gary Gillman
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Toronto
Country: Canada
Posts: 67
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iain Fyffe View Post
I believe it's only available online, at least at the moment.
I will obtain it soon then, thanks.

Gary

Gary Gillman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-03-2014, 10:42 PM
  #150
Iain Fyffe
Hockey fact-checker
 
Iain Fyffe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Fredericton, NB
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,509
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Gillman View Post
I will obtain it soon then, thanks.

Gary
A note from the author: if you're ordering on Amazon.ca and get the message "temporarily out of stock", just ignore it and order. It's print on demand.

Iain Fyffe is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:38 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. @2017 All Rights Reserved.