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Too many New York teams?

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Old
05-29-2014, 05:23 PM
  #1
DethOfDragnz
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Too many New York teams?

There are too many teams in NY and the NY area 3 NHL teams and I lost count in the AHL.


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05-29-2014, 06:43 PM
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NY state has a lot of teams but for the most part their support, with a couple of exceptions, is OK. The AHL likes it so they can drive around in the bus to all the games.

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05-29-2014, 07:08 PM
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There are 6 AHL teams in New York, one ECHL team, and countless college teams. The reason their are so many is because they are financially successful. Rochester and Syracuse usually draw over 5,000 better than"major" league markets like Milwaukee and Oklahoma City. Smaller cities like Binghamton, Utica,and Glens Falls don't have huge attendance numbers, but have pretty high attendance to populatin ratios I think Glens Falls is 30% and Utica sold out every Friday and Saturday home game they had. So that is why New York has so many teams.

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05-31-2014, 07:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJNewman View Post
There are 6 AHL teams in New York, one ECHL team, and countless college teams. The reason their are so many is because they are financially successful. Rochester and Syracuse usually draw over 5,000 better than"major" league markets like Milwaukee and Oklahoma City. Smaller cities like Binghamton, Utica,and Glens Falls don't have huge attendance numbers, but have pretty high attendance to populatin ratios I think Glens Falls is 30% and Utica sold out every Friday and Saturday home game they had. So that is why New York has so many teams.
To add to the above.....hockey is also part of the culture in Upstate New York. I didn't look up the exact statistics but Utica has a population of approximately 60K and the surrounding area of around 240K. Even though we are a small city there are 6 different youth hockey associations and 5 different high school hockey programs in the area. Syracuse and Rochester have even more than that.

Most people from other states think of New York City when they think of New York and don't realize how large of a state it is.

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06-01-2014, 12:48 AM
  #5
Tommy Hawk
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CJNewman View Post
There are 6 AHL teams in New York, one ECHL team, and countless college teams. The reason their are so many is because they are financially successful. Rochester and Syracuse usually draw over 5,000 better than"major" league markets like Milwaukee and Oklahoma City. Smaller cities like Binghamton, Utica,and Glens Falls don't have huge attendance numbers, but have pretty high attendance to population ratios I think Glens Falls is 30% and Utica sold out every Friday and Saturday home game they had. So that is why New York has so many teams.
I wouldn't say they are financially successful since we do not know if they are making or losing money. I would say they are financially feasible, meaning that the losses incurred, if any, are within acceptable ranges.

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06-01-2014, 09:11 AM
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Originally Posted by CJNewman View Post
There are 6 AHL teams in New York, one ECHL team, and countless college teams. The reason their are so many is because they are financially successful. Rochester and Syracuse usually draw over 5,000 better than"major" league markets like Milwaukee and Oklahoma City. Smaller cities like Binghamton, Utica,and Glens Falls don't have huge attendance numbers, but have pretty high attendance to populatin ratios I think Glens Falls is 30% and Utica sold out every Friday and Saturday home game they had. So that is why New York has so many teams.
I call BS!

This season according to theahl.com, Milwaukee averaged 5844, good for 11th spot in the AHL.

Syracuse averaged 5574 for 14th place.

Rochester averaged 5412 for 15th place.

OKC was 28th with 3348, just behind Utica and Albany, the state capitol.

The AHL average was 5402. As much as I like Rochester, they were only average in attendance this season.

Grand Rapids was second with 8220 and Chicago was 5th with 7927.

It took 5 minutes to find the data. I could make a case that the Midwest is better AHL hockey country than upstate NY based on the data. Rockford was 20th with 4804, the lowest city in the Midwest.

How many AHL teams make money? Probably about half. Milwaukee's old owner once said that the team never made money. From 1993-96 the team averaged over 9000 a game, but the travel costs were higher. See Tommy Hawk's post.


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06-01-2014, 09:30 AM
  #7
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Originally Posted by DethOfDragnz View Post
There are too many teams in NY and the NY area 3 NHL teams and I lost count in the AHL.
Giving the people what they want.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ockey_programs

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06-01-2014, 12:08 PM
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There are too many teams in NY and the NY area 3 NHL teams and I lost count in the AHL.
No, I don't think that NY has too many teams. The fact that Abby is moving to Glens Falls shows that some people in Canada must agree with me.

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06-01-2014, 12:14 PM
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I checked the list. Wisconsin with 6 NCAA titles, Boston University has 5.

Congrats to the Union skating Dutchmen on their first.

The Wisconsin women have 4 NCAA titles. Go Badgers!

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06-02-2014, 10:38 AM
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CJNewman
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Originally Posted by adsfan View Post
I call BS!

This season according to theahl.com, Milwaukee averaged 5844, good for 11th spot in the AHL.

Syracuse averaged 5574 for 14th place.

Rochester averaged 5412 for 15th place.

OKC was 28th with 3348, just behind Utica and Albany, the state capitol.

The AHL average was 5402. As much as I like Rochester, they were only average in attendance this season.

Grand Rapids was second with 8220 and Chicago was 5th with 7927.

It took 5 minutes to find the data. I could make a case that the Midwest is better AHL hockey country than upstate NY based on the data. Rockford was 20th with 4804, the lowest city in the Midwest.

How many AHL teams make money? Probably about half. Milwaukee's old owner once said that the team never made money. From 1993-96 the team averaged over 9000 a game, but the travel costs were higher. See Tommy Hawk's post.
You were right about the attendance numbers that was pure laziness on my part. To your point about the Midwest teams being more successful than the Northeast because they have higher attendance I would say you also have to take population into consideration. Chicago for example is very high in attendance but taking in actual population to consider would show that less than 1% of people who live their or in the surrounding areas actually go to Wolves game and if you take Glens Falls who has a much lower attendance and compare it to the population subtracting the games in Philadelphia you still are looking at about 20%, but I digress and back to the topic at hand. I love the fact their is so many teams in New York and the Northeast because I live so close to so many franchises It gives me an opportunity to see so many teams. I have 2 that are within a half an hour of me, 4 within 2 hours, 13 within 4 hours, and 16 within 5 hours. Does that make me selfish that I like having so many teams so close to me absolutely, but that's me. So what I'm trying to say is this if you truly want to get a team in your area get out and start a petition get lots of support go to local business and government officials and show them that the people of your area want a team and if there's enough support you'll probably get one it's more effective than complaining about how it's not fair. 2011-2012 was the only year in the past 35-40 years an AHL franchise hasn't relocated so it's very possible to get one if your willing to put forth the effort to show your area wants and will support one.

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06-02-2014, 12:06 PM
  #11
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You can take population into account but if you do that you also have to take in other activities. In Chicago you have the Bulls, Blackhawks and Bears. With Cleveland you have the Cavs and Browns etc. This is minor league hockey being played in markets with major league teams playing at the same time.

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06-02-2014, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by AdmiralsFan24 View Post
You can take population into account but if you do that you also have to take in other activities. In Chicago you have the Bulls, Blackhawks and Bears. With Cleveland you have the Cavs and Browns etc. This is minor league hockey being played in markets with major league teams playing at the same time.


You are absolutely right about the competition, but that is a hinderance. Think of it this way why would you want to go to a market where there is tons of competition and much higher operating costs if you could go to a market where there is little to no competition and the operating costs are a fraction of the other city.

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06-02-2014, 01:23 PM
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AdmiralsFan24
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Originally Posted by CJNewman View Post
You are absolutely right about the competition, but that is a hinderance. Think of it this way why would you want to go to a market where there is tons of competition and much higher operating costs if you could go to a market where there is little to no competition and the operating costs are a fraction of the other city.
Because there is more potential to draw more fans in bigger markets.

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06-02-2014, 03:57 PM
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Tommy Hawk
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Originally Posted by CJNewman View Post
You were right about the attendance numbers that was pure laziness on my part. To your point about the Midwest teams being more successful than the Northeast because they have higher attendance I would say you also have to take population into consideration. Chicago for example is very high in attendance but taking in actual population to consider would show that less than 1% of people who live their or in the surrounding areas actually go to Wolves game and if you take Glens Falls who has a much lower attendance and compare it to the population subtracting the games in Philadelphia you still are looking at about 20%, but I digress and back to the topic at hand. I love the fact their is so many teams in New York and the Northeast because I live so close to so many franchises It gives me an opportunity to see so many teams. I have 2 that are within a half an hour of me, 4 within 2 hours, 13 within 4 hours, and 16 within 5 hours. Does that make me selfish that I like having so many teams so close to me absolutely, but that's me. So what I'm trying to say is this if you truly want to get a team in your area get out and start a petition get lots of support go to local business and government officials and show them that the people of your area want a team and if there's enough support you'll probably get one it's more effective than complaining about how it's not fair. 2011-2012 was the only year in the past 35-40 years an AHL franchise hasn't relocated so it's very possible to get one if your willing to put forth the effort to show your area wants and will support one.
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Originally Posted by AdmiralsFan24 View Post
You can take population into account but if you do that you also have to take in other activities. In Chicago you have the Bulls, Blackhawks and Bears. With Cleveland you have the Cavs and Browns etc. This is minor league hockey being played in markets with major league teams playing at the same time.
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Originally Posted by CJNewman View Post
You are absolutely right about the competition, but that is a hinderance. Think of it this way why would you want to go to a market where there is tons of competition and much higher operating costs if you could go to a market where there is little to no competition and the operating costs are a fraction of the other city.
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Because there is more potential to draw more fans in bigger markets.
You also have to realize that there is a LOT more competition for entertainment money is larger cities. More and better restaurant, more and better movie theaters, shopping, other sporting activities both participation and observation, more museums, etc. You also have more traffic to deal with in getting to these places.

The reason Abby moved was because the Flames were THROWN OUT. If you put the canucks farm team there they would fill the place, like they did whenever Manitoba and then Chicago and Utica visited.

Also, the larger midwest cities treat their players more like they would in the NHL. Better locker rooms, better practice facilities, better travel arrangements. Longer trips require flight time, just like the NHL has when they travel.

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06-02-2014, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Tommy Hawk View Post
You also have to realize that there is a LOT more competition for entertainment money is larger cities. More and better restaurant, more and better movie theaters, shopping, other sporting activities both participation and observation, more museums, etc. You also have more traffic to deal with in getting to these places.

The reason Abby moved was because the Flames were THROWN OUT. If you put the canucks farm team there they would fill the place, like they did whenever Manitoba and then Chicago and Utica visited.

Also, the larger midwest cities treat their players more like they would in the NHL. Better locker rooms, better practice facilities, better travel arrangements. Longer trips require flight time, just like the NHL has when they travel.
Midwest cities treating their players more like the NHL? That's rather subjective, isn't it? Better locker rooms? Manchester, Portland, Springfield, Hershey and Wilkes-Barre probably could withstand being compared to the locker rooms of midwestern cities. Better practice facilities? Again, I'll point to Portland who has a practice rink that includes off-ice training, full medical (diagnostic, surgical and rehabilitation) services. I'm not sure of many AHL teams that anything more than a simple rink with maybe a few bikes and weight equipment. Some teams such as San Antonio had to fight to find ice for practice. That was one of the reasons why the Coyotes eventually left and I'm not sure its gotten any better. Better travel arrangements?? Compared w/ NHL teams?

NHL teams travel by private planes, avoiding customs and security, getting first-class meals and staying in four star hotels. AHL teams in the midwest fly on commercial planes, waiting in the same lines as you and I, dealing with cancelled flights, lucky to get a bag of peanuts and staying in Holiday Inns - nothing wrong with Holiday Inns. Just pointing out its not a Four Seasons.

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06-02-2014, 07:03 PM
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Midwest cities treating their players more like the NHL? That's rather subjective, isn't it? Better locker rooms? Manchester, Portland, Springfield, Hershey and Wilkes-Barre probably could withstand being compared to the locker rooms of midwestern cities. Better practice facilities? Again, I'll point to Portland who has a practice rink that includes off-ice training, full medical (diagnostic, surgical and rehabilitation) services. I'm not sure of many AHL teams that anything more than a simple rink with maybe a few bikes and weight equipment. Some teams such as San Antonio had to fight to find ice for practice. That was one of the reasons why the Coyotes eventually left and I'm not sure its gotten any better. Better travel arrangements?? Compared w/ NHL teams?

NHL teams travel by private planes, avoiding customs and security, getting first-class meals and staying in four star hotels. AHL teams in the midwest fly on commercial planes, waiting in the same lines as you and I, dealing with cancelled flights, lucky to get a bag of peanuts and staying in Holiday Inns - nothing wrong with Holiday Inns. Just pointing out its not a Four Seasons.
Not better travel arrangements than NHL, better than the other AHL teams. Would you rather fly for 90 minutes or bus for 10 hours? And even if the players fly private in the NHL, they still fly, they rarely bus more than a few hours. And none of the West Coast NHL teams bus anywhere, except when maybe Anaheim and LA play but they may just have the players drive to whichever rink.

BTW, the Fours Seasons is a far cry from being a decent hotel. Completely overpriced with mediocre rooms. And there are not any Four Seasons in any AHL cities except Chicago and Toronto. I know that when the teams visit Chicago and Milwaukee they are staying in places like the Radisson, Hilton, Hyatt, etc.

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06-02-2014, 07:05 PM
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But just to stay on topic......

If the New York/New England area is giving the NHL and the AHL owners an acceptable result, then fine, they can put teams wherever they want but I do get sick of some of these guys crying poor which is why they cannot travel.

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06-02-2014, 07:25 PM
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Not better travel arrangements than NHL, better than the other AHL teams. Would you rather fly for 90 minutes or bus for 10 hours? And even if the players fly private in the NHL, they still fly, they rarely bus more than a few hours. And none of the West Coast NHL teams bus anywhere, except when maybe Anaheim and LA play but they may just have the players drive to whichever rink.

BTW, the Fours Seasons is a far cry from being a decent hotel. Completely overpriced with mediocre rooms. And there are not any Four Seasons in any AHL cities except Chicago and Toronto. I know that when the teams visit Chicago and Milwaukee they are staying in places like the Radisson, Hilton, Hyatt, etc.
Where are you getting East teams busing 10 hours except for Norforlk. Truthfully if I was to guess I would say the average bus ride for most teams is about 2 hours. Also if you think teams in the West don't bus as much as the East your crazy most teams fly to one city and bus to others around there and stay in hotels every night instead of going home. Here's a fact last year Abbotsford spent 90 nights in a hotel last year.

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06-02-2014, 08:11 PM
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Also if you think teams in the West don't bus as much as the East your crazy most teams fly to one city and bus to others around there and stay in hotels every night instead of going home. Here's a fact last year Abbotsford spent 90 nights in a hotel last year.
Not a chance teams in the West bus as much as teams in the East. Just taking the Admirals schedule.

They had to fly to Abbotsford to open the season then fly back home.

Fly to Grand Rapids then fly back home for a game the next night.

Fly to Iowa then fly to Austin then probably bus to San Antonio.

Fly back to Milwaukee then fly to Iowa for a game the next night then fly back to Milwaukee.

Fly to Grand Rapids then fly back home.

Bus to Rockford then fly to Charlotte.

Fly back home then fly to Grand Rapids for a game the next night.

Probably fly home but maybe bus considering the next game was 5 days away.

Bus to Rockford, then Chicago then back to Milwaukee.

Fly to Iowa.

Fly to Cleveland then fly back home.

Fly to San Antonio then to Oklahoma City then fly back home.

Bus to Rockford and bus back to Milwaukee.

Possibly bus to Iowa because there's 4 days between games. Fly back home because there's a game the next night.

Bus to Chicago, bus back to Milwaukee.

Bus to Rockford, then fly to Grand Rapids for game the next night. Fly back home.

Bus to Rockford, bus back home.

Fly to Hamilton, bus to Toronto probably fly to Utica with a game the next day. Bus to Rochester then fly back home.

Bus to Chicago, bus back home, bus back to Chicago, bus back home, bus to Rockford, bus back home then fly to Iowa, possibly bus back home but likely fly.

Then fly to Toronto for the playoffs.

Not a chance a team in the East is flying that much and even if they are, which like I said I'm pretty confident isn't true, East teams aren't flying nearly as far as teams in the West.


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06-02-2014, 09:33 PM
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Let's get back on topic. There was an article written for the Wall Street Journal written over 10 years ago by some Economics professor or something from Harvard explaining why minor league teams work in smaller towns better than major league cities. In my opinion I see 4 teams moving in the next two years and of them 4 I think are moving only one is from the Northeast. So in conclusion until otherwise proven wrong I believe the Northeast monopoly in the AHL is here to stay.

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06-03-2014, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by CJNewman View Post
Let's get back on topic. There was an article written for the Wall Street Journal written over 10 years ago by some Economics professor or something from Harvard explaining why minor league teams work in smaller towns better than major league cities. In my opinion I see 4 teams moving in the next two years and of them 4 I think are moving only one is from the Northeast. So in conclusion until otherwise proven wrong I believe the Northeast monopoly in the AHL is here to stay.
I think that there will be 4 teams moving and unless otherwise proven wrong I think the Northeast monopoly will disappear.

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06-03-2014, 11:44 AM
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Just some quick driving distances ONE WAY for the northeast teams, according to Maquest:

Rochester to Hershey - 4:40
Portland to Utica - 5:40
Portland to Springfield - 3:00
Providence to Springfield - 1:30

Pick any you want, most are not within a 3 hour drive ONE WAY.

Chicago to Milwaukee - 1:35
Chicago to Rockford - 1:35
Chicago to Grand Rapids - 2:55
Chicago to Des Moines - 5:15
Milwaukee to Des Moines - 5:50
Milwaukee to Rockford - 1:40
Rockford to Des Moines - 4:30
Chicago to Cleveland 5:30

So the distance is the same for the teams in the midwest as it is for the vaunted Northeast.

Difference is that Chicago has flights to these cities so they do not have to take a bus.

How many non stop flights a day from Providence to Utica?

Midwest has easier travel than the Northeast and they fly more places.

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06-03-2014, 12:36 PM
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First you couldn't pick worse examples especially considering two of the teams you listed are in th Western Conference. Secondly I can give you a ton of examples of teams in the Northeast that are an hour or less away from each other. Your telling me it's better to fly somewhere that is about a 3 hour drive than bus it considering the costs of flights and the fact that you have to be at the airport two hours before your flight takes off and of course there's no delays ever.

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06-03-2014, 01:38 PM
  #24
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First you couldn't pick worse examples especially considering two of the teams you listed are in the Western Conference. Secondly I can give you a ton of examples of teams in the Northeast that are an hour or less away from each other. Your telling me it's better to fly somewhere that is about a 3 hour drive than bus it considering the costs of flights and the fact that you have to be at the airport two hours before your flight takes off and of course there's no delays ever.
OK, give the examples. And you should really not look a the conference they are in, you should look at the schedule. Rochester didn't play Chicago for SIX YEARS even though they are in the same conference. I think syracuse was maybe 1 game a year if any. All the team east of pennsylvania play probably 80% of their schedule against the other teams east of Pennsylvania.

When was the last time you flew? 2 hours before? Really? The players get to the airport about an hour before they fly. I know, I was on flights with the Aeros from Houston to Chicago on 4 separate occasions. All the other equipment, etc. is checked by the equipment manager well before the flight is scheduled.

Rochester - Hamilton 2:23 not including the 2 hour wait at customs each way (I just did the drive about 3 months ago)

Rochester - Syracuse 1:25
Syracuse - Albany 2:20
Albany - Worcester 2:10
Albany - Springfield 1:20
Albany - Hartford 1:50
Springfield - Hartford :40
Worcester - Hartford 1:00
Worcester - Springfield 1:00

The only 4 teams east of pennsylvania that are close are Springfield, Worcester, Hartford, and Providence but this doesn't take into account the traffic and the travel conditions, especially in winter. Ask Albany about the bus crash. Better to have a flight delayed than a bus crash.

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06-03-2014, 02:18 PM
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Worchester is within an hour of both Providence and Springfield. Springfield is also within an hour of Hartford. Albany and Glens Falls are less than an hour. Syracuse and Utica. Binghamton and Wilkes-Barre Scranton. That's 6 less than an hour. I'd also rather be in a bus crash than a plane crash. Oh by the way how is the Milwaukee Admirals search going for a new arena there because you know when the Bucks get theirs there going to tear down the Bradley Center and there's no way the taxpayers are going to fund hockey equipment in the new arena. Maybe they should of took a few less flights and a few more bus trips and used the money they saved on that to build their own facility or renovate an existing one.

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