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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Players who looked more dangerous on the ice than they were

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Old
06-02-2014, 12:07 AM
  #51
TheMoreYouKnow
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Fast players are all like this. Take Matthew Lombardi or Darren Helm, those guys got wheels which put them into positions frequently that would be lethal if you put more talented players in them. You see them move into space and for a few seconds it's like you are watching prime Bure and most likely it will end with an "oh right" as nothing comes out of it.

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06-02-2014, 12:33 AM
  #52
billybudd
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Max Afinogenov was the first name that came to mind.

I'll also throw out Josef Beranek. The guy could carry the puck a mile through coverage right into scoring position but couldn't accomplish a thing once he got there.

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06-02-2014, 12:55 AM
  #53
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by MuzikMachine View Post
Todd Marchant, especially when he was in Edmonton. He seemed to always be sprung for a breakaway but didn't finish nearly as often.
there was that one beautiful breakaway goal to defeat dallas that one time, but yeah other than that it was a lot of speediness with little in the way of results.

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06-02-2014, 06:02 AM
  #54
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I agree with Afinogenov. First name that came to my mind was Keith Primeau. Big and power forward mentality but you weren't impressed once you read the scoresheet

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06-02-2014, 06:22 PM
  #55
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Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post
Fast players are all like this. Take Matthew Lombardi or Darren Helm, those guys got wheels which put them into positions frequently that would be lethal if you put more talented players in them. You see them move into space and for a few seconds it's like you are watching prime Bure and most likely it will end with an "oh right" as nothing comes out of it.
Helm learned from Kris Draper, the king of generating dozens of breakaways and cashing none of them in.

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06-02-2014, 06:52 PM
  #56
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A lot of guys who belong on this list from the last 20 years ended up in Columbus. Todd Marchant, Jason Chimera, Scottie Upshall, Kris Beech, Gilbert Brule, Dan Fritsche, Rostislav Klesla, Scott Lachance, and the list just goes on from there.

Upshall is someone who always looked like he was doing something and really involved, then you sit up 82 games later and realize that his 12 goals and 30 points really didn't amount to anything.

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06-02-2014, 11:30 PM
  #57
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Viktor Stalberg, Sergei Shirokov.

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06-02-2014, 11:42 PM
  #58
Oscar Acosta
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Afinogenov totally.

I clicked this link and immediately thought Sergei Samsonov. Guy always looked like a total threat to me but in the end only had that clutch Oiler goal in 06.



Takes like 2 minutes of Sharks domination before it happens.
Not sure what's sadder in hindsight, how much the Oilers were getting dominated in this video or the fact the Oilers haven't been in the playoffs since Standard Definition TV.

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06-03-2014, 09:43 AM
  #59
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Even though he was a star player, I always thought Fedorov kind of fit in this category. He could dominate both ends of the ice and look amazing doing it but at the end of the game it didn't usually amount to a lot of points. He often got stymied by goalies or just couldn't finish his chances like you'd hope for a player of his caliber.

I think this also lead to some unfair criticism because people expected more offense from him, especially after he won the Hart and scored 120 points. He wasn't a Bure though and focused more on a two-way game and was extremely valuable because of it.

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06-03-2014, 10:02 AM
  #60
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Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
Even though he was a star player, I always thought Fedorov kind of fit in this category. He could dominate both ends of the ice and look amazing doing it but at the end of the game it didn't usually amount to a lot of points. He often got stymied by goalies or just couldn't finish his chances like you'd hope for a player of his caliber.

I think this also lead to some unfair criticism because people expected more offense from him, especially after he won the Hart and scored 120 points. He wasn't a Bure though and focused more on a two-way game and was extremely valuable because of it.
Fedorov was incredibly talented and capable.

He was also just plain inconsistent in his effort.

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06-03-2014, 10:31 AM
  #61
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Viktor Stalberg. All sizzle, no steak.

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06-03-2014, 01:53 PM
  #62
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Russ Courtnall is a great pick. Along similar lines, I'll say Maxim Afinogenov.
The very first guy I thought of was Afinogenov. He used to scare the hell out of me when he had the puck. Samsonov was another when he was in Boston. And he scared me for the exact opposite reason when he was in Montreal.

Thinking back, Courtnall used to get the crowd on the edge of their seats in Montreal because of that speed, but nothing would come of it. Of course he would have gotten to the net faster had he ever tried to get there in a straight line.

Oleg Petrov would be another one in that mold. All that speed and chances and he finishes with 40 points or so for the season. Can't fault him for work ethic though.

L'artiste, Kovalev, not for speed but for stickhandling until he'd finally turn the puck over.

And then, there is the Great Jan Bulis. I've never seen a guy miss so many open nets as this guy. You want him to score, put a goalie and a couple of defensemen in front of him and tell him to just get the puck on net.

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06-03-2014, 02:25 PM
  #63
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I like this goal by Bure from the 95 playoffs against St. Louis, the 2-0 goal in game 7 of the first round, when he breaks free shorthanded from MacInnis and Houlder and scores on Joseph. He's also trailed, on the right side, by teammate and thread favorite Russ Courtnall who puts the puck back in the goal on the bounce out. I bet he thought for himself "OK, that's how you do it".

Courtnall actually had great stats with Vancouver late in that season. 30 points in 24 games regular season & playoffs.


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06-03-2014, 04:06 PM
  #64
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Originally Posted by the edler View Post
I like this goal by Bure from the 95 playoffs against St. Louis, the 2-0 goal in game 7 of the first round, when he breaks free shorthanded from MacInnis and Houlder and scores on Joseph. He's also trailed, on the right side, by teammate and thread favorite Russ Courtnall who puts the puck back in the goal on the bounce out. I bet he thought for himself "OK, that's how you do it".

Courtnall actually had great stats with Vancouver late in that season. 30 points in 24 games regular season & playoffs.

Recording over top of Don Wittman is an absolute travesty.

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06-03-2014, 04:25 PM
  #65
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by the edler View Post
I like this goal by Bure from the 95 playoffs against St. Louis, the 2-0 goal in game 7 of the first round, when he breaks free shorthanded from MacInnis and Houlder and scores on Joseph. He's also trailed, on the right side, by teammate and thread favorite Russ Courtnall who puts the puck back in the goal on the bounce out. I bet he thought for himself "OK, that's how you do it".

Courtnall actually had great stats with Vancouver late in that season. 30 points in 24 games regular season & playoffs.

he and bure had excellent chemistry, and obviously their speed was nearly impossible to contain.

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06-04-2014, 08:35 AM
  #66
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Fedorov was incredibly talented and capable.

He was also just plain inconsistent in his effort.
I watched Fedorov's whole career and I think this is really overstated. He always played a great two-way game, which takes effort and focus. He didn't always produce offensively like people wanted but IMO he wasn't really a natural goal scorer (like Yzerman was) and sacrificed some offense under Bowman's system. As he got older he also realized he couldn't, nor did he need to, kill himself during the regular season because the playoffs were what really mattered. Most veteran players realize this at some point in their careers.

His critics saw this Russian with incredible talent and physical abilities so it was easy to label him as lacking effort. I've never heard anyone say this about Gilmour but take a look at their top 10 adjusted season point totals:

Fedorov:
109
102
93
87
78
76
75
75
72
71

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...fedorse01.html


Gilmour:
102
100
89
85
79
77
76
72
72
70

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...gilmodo01.html


They both had a couple huge offensive seasons and then hovered around a PPG for the others. Why wasn't Gilmour more consistent? He didn't have all the natural abilities Fedorov had but he was capable of playing at a similar level. Did Gilmour lack effort apart from '93 and '94? That's what always gets tossed in Fedorov's direction but their careers are very similar in a lot of ways. Great playoff performers with a couple huge seasons and very consistent two-way play otherwise. Gilmour was a heart and soul player while Fedorov lacked effort. It's BS.

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06-04-2014, 08:55 AM
  #67
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Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
I watched Fedorov's whole career and I think this is really overstated. He always played a great two-way game, which takes effort and focus. He didn't always produce offensively like people wanted but IMO he wasn't really a natural goal scorer (like Yzerman was) and sacrificed some offense under Bowman's system. As he got older he also realized he couldn't, nor did he need to, kill himself during the regular season because the playoffs were what really mattered. Most veteran players realize this at some point in their careers.

His critics saw this Russian with incredible talent and physical abilities so it was easy to label him as lacking effort. I've never heard anyone say this about Gilmour but take a look at their top 10 adjusted season point totals:

Fedorov:
109
102
93
87
78
76
75
75
72
71

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...fedorse01.html


Gilmour:
102
100
89
85
79
77
76
72
72
70

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...gilmodo01.html


They both had a couple huge offensive seasons and then hovered around a PPG for the others. Why wasn't Gilmour more consistent? He didn't have all the natural abilities Fedorov had but he was capable of playing at a similar level. Did Gilmour lack effort apart from '93 and '94? That's what always gets tossed in Fedorov's direction but their careers are very similar in a lot of ways. Great playoff performers with a couple huge seasons and very consistent two-way play otherwise. Gilmour was a heart and soul player while Fedorov lacked effort. It's BS.
They are that equal while Fedorov was a much more purely talented hockey player.

Thanks for proving my point.

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06-04-2014, 09:31 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
They are that equal while Fedorov was a much more purely talented hockey player.

Thanks for proving my point.
They were different types of hockey players with different styles and ways of getting it done but had similar careers, peaks, and overall capabilities. Fedorov had more raw talent but Gilmour made up for it in other ways and wasn't exactly a plug himself. He was an extremely talented hockey player even though he was smaller and didn't look as naturally gifted.

One was Russian so he's labelled as being lazy. The other is Canadian so he's labelled as being a heart and soul player. Both were big game players but neither played at their absolute best all the time. I've shown this but you'd still rather stick with the labels.

What you're trying to imply doesn't even make sense. It's as if Fedorov never put his foot to the pedal, otherwise he'd blow Gilmour away in terms of peak. They had similar peaks and similar careers and it's unrealistic to think Fedorov should play at his best all the time when Gilmour didn't either.

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06-04-2014, 09:43 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by danincanada View Post
They were different types of hockey players with different styles and ways of getting it done but had similar careers, peaks, and overall capabilities. Fedorov had more raw talent but Gilmour made up for it in other ways and wasn't exactly a plug himself. He was an extremely talented hockey player even though he was smaller and didn't look as naturally gifted.

One was Russian so he's labelled as being lazy. The other is Canadian so he's labelled as being a heart and soul player. Both were big game players but neither played at their absolute best all the time. I've shown this but you'd still rather stick with the labels.

What you're trying to imply doesn't even make sense. It's as if Fedorov never put his foot to the pedal, otherwise he'd blow Gilmour away in terms of peak. They had similar peaks and similar careers and it's unrealistic to think Fedorov should play at his best all the time when Gilmour didn't either.
I think it is funny that you're saying what I am trying to imply doesn't make sense when more than once in each of the past two posts you have confirmed what I am saying.

Fedorov was a great player. He had a great career. But he could have been better.


Last edited by BraveCanadian: 06-04-2014 at 12:04 PM.
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06-04-2014, 09:52 AM
  #70
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I think it is funny that you're saying what I am trying to imply doesn't make sense when more than once in each of the past two posts you have confirmed what I am saying.

Fedorov was a great player. He had a great career. But he could have been better.
You could say that about just about any player. Gilmour didn't always play at the '93-'94 level either so the same could be said for him. But nobody goes there. That's my beef with your original post.

Everyone expected so much more from Fedorov but he was what he was and he had an amazing career and worked hard for it. People love to take it a step further and criticize him as being lazy but as I've shown it's not that simple. The Red Wings had great seasons even when Fedorov only scored 65 points and even then he was a key to the teams success. It comes down to labelling and perspective and you're being overly critical of Fedorov - something you'd never do with Gilmour.

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06-04-2014, 09:54 AM
  #71
vadim sharifijanov
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my lasting memory of russ courtnall is in a game from the '96 or '97 season. courtnall gets an outlet with one defenseman trying to hold the zone and the other backing way way off to respect his speed. from above, you could clearly see how much guys respected his wheels. after getting the jump on the first guy, courtnall takes off like a ferrari in the neutral zone and still manages to outrace the second defenseman by the time he hits the blue line. so clear path breakaway, tied game in the second period. he has no idea what he wants to do so he winds up forever, totally telegraphs the slapshot, then just above the hash marks fires it right into the goalie's logo.

i now have no recollection who that goalie or the defensemen were, or what team we were playing. but the entire arenas was cursing out loud and i have to think the goalie was laughing in his mask.

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06-04-2014, 10:01 AM
  #72
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One was Russian so he's labelled as being lazy. The other is Canadian so he's labelled as being a heart and soul player. Both were big game players but neither played at their absolute best all the time. I've shown this but you'd still rather stick with the labels.
I think that's crap. It has nothing to do with nationality. What we are talking about here is the difference between what a player actually accomplished relative to what could have been if the potential of their physical gifts had been realized. All you have shown above is that their 'adjusted' outputs were similar. I don't think it is a stretch at all to say that Fedorov was more physically gifted than Doug Gilmour.

This is also an area (i.e. actual performance vs. potential performance) where just about any comparison is going to fall short of Doug Gilmour. More than anybody that I can remember, Gilmour seemed to squeeze every ounce of hockey possible out of his small frame (generously listed at 5'11"). You just had to look at his face toward the end of a playoff run to see that he had given all he had to give.

Nobody ever felt that way about Sergei Fedorov. But nobody ever felt that way about Pierre Larouche either. It's not a nationality thing.

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06-04-2014, 10:40 AM
  #73
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I think that's crap. It has nothing to do with nationality. What we are talking about here is the difference between what a player actually accomplished relative to what could have been if the potential of their physical gifts had been realized. All you have shown above is that their 'adjusted' outputs were similar. I don't think it is a stretch at all to say that Fedorov was more physically gifted than Doug Gilmour.
You're right, it's not just about nationality but for some that is where it stems from. Let's not suddenly pretend physical ability is all that makes a great hockey player now though. Between the ears is just as huge a factor and Gilmour had that too.

I get that people expected more from Fedorov because of his talent but he was what he was. To me it's just a way to cirticize a player who did have an amazing career doing what he did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by McGuillicuddy View Post
This is also an area (i.e. actual performance vs. potential performance) where just about any comparison is going to fall short of Doug Gilmour. More than anybody that I can remember, Gilmour seemed to squeeze every ounce of hockey possible out of his small frame (generously listed at 5'11"). You just had to look at his face toward the end of a playoff run to see that he had given all he had to give.
Meh, he played out of his mind in '93 and '94 in an ideal situation for him in Toronto. I live in Toronto and saw it first hand. He was in his prime in a hockey crazed city, with a great coach and veteran team behind him where he could be THE GUY. Good for him. It gets exaggerated though. Fedorov gave it his all too and helped lead a team to 3 Cups. He played his brains out too but did it in a different (his) way. At their best they were very similar level players. The labelling part is what annoys me. How is Fedorov inconsistent but Gilmour was? Look at their careers and they were nothing but similar in that regard.

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06-04-2014, 11:05 AM
  #74
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by McGuillicuddy View Post
I think that's crap. It has nothing to do with nationality. What we are talking about here is the difference between what a player actually accomplished relative to what could have been if the potential of their physical gifts had been realized. All you have shown above is that their 'adjusted' outputs were similar. I don't think it is a stretch at all to say that Fedorov was more physically gifted than Doug Gilmour.
i said it before in this thread, but i'll say it again: it's not either of those things. not this thread anyway.

this thread is about guys who had some flashy skills/gifts and lacked others, and so they couldn't accomplish what it looked like they might based on those flashy skills/gifts. that wasn't fedorov. he could accomplish anything he wanted to accomplish.

"dangerous" is about potential. not some theoretical potential you have to calculate, in the sense of "if evander kane's brain catches up to his hands and his legs, he could be taylor hall." but actual potential: "if [player x] decides it's go time, he can take over this game right here and now." prime fedorov had that actual potential, and therefore was always just as dangerous as he looked when he was on the ice. even if he didn't always think it was go time.



(i will say, however, that no i don't think fedorov was a guy who could always contend for the art ross. he wasn't quite that good, though i don't think he ever even necessarily looked like he could be that good offensively. that 120 point season was an aberration and created unrealistic expectations for him. but what his speed and his hands and his defensive acumen and his shot and everything else did *look* like -- a guy who could always be the best player on the ice on all 200 feet of it -- that was real. which is to say that danincanada is partially right, and those commenting on what he said have missed the terms of what he was saying.)

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06-04-2014, 01:24 PM
  #75
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i said it before in this thread, but i'll say it again: it's not either of those things. not this thread anyway.

this thread is about guys who had some flashy skills/gifts and lacked others, and so they couldn't accomplish what it looked like they might based on those flashy skills/gifts. that wasn't fedorov. he could accomplish anything he wanted to accomplish.
You're right, fair enough. We went a bit off topic as the Fedorov-Gilmour discussion steered toward whether or not they gave all they had to give. Agreed that this is separate from the original point of the thread.

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