HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > Philadelphia Flyers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Miscellaneous NHL Talk XIV

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-02-2014, 03:39 PM
  #151
Hiesenberg
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Country: United States
Posts: 11,072
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post
I could be wrong here but did his new deal technically kick in yet? His last one didn't have any clauses in it.
I think they have until the next year to make this move. It kicks in 2014/2015. Is the draft before the new league year? I think so.

Hiesenberg is offline  
Old
06-02-2014, 03:58 PM
  #152
FlyersFanz
aut viam inveniam au
 
FlyersFanz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: BlkVanOutsideUrHouse
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,044
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prongo View Post
Howard Berger is saying the Toronto Maple Leafs and Florida are in talks with the Leafs trading Dion Neon+Kadri+8th overall for the 1st overall+Jovo.

This would be all kinds of funny.
That's not near enough for 1st overall and Jovo...Leafs need to add more or better players.

FlyersFanz is offline  
Old
06-02-2014, 03:58 PM
  #153
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Ground Beef Invictus
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 67,599
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curufinwe View Post
They wouldn't have won the Cup here anyway
I wouldn't say they never would have, but it would have taken some time and would have been a less efficient, more painful rebuild if they were trading away a combination of lesser value players like Briere, Coburn, Carle, Hartnell, etc. to fit Bryz while also filling the roster out a bit/restocking the farm. They wouldn't have gotten guys like Simmonds or Voracek for those trades.

__________________
Saturday night, I like to raise a little harm. I'll sleep when I'm dead.
Beef Invictus is offline  
Old
06-02-2014, 04:10 PM
  #154
Striiker
I hate zebras
 
Striiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 20,064
vCash: 500
Whatever, I don't care what anyone thinks of the trades or how much people complain about the cup ********, I would make both of them again 1000 out of 1000 times. One step back and three steps forward.

Striiker is offline  
Old
06-02-2014, 04:11 PM
  #155
LegionOfDoom91
Registered User
 
LegionOfDoom91's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Philadelphia, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 30,956
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFanz View Post
That's not near enough for 1st overall and Jovo...Leafs need to add more or better players.


They're giving up a top 6 center & a top 4 defender to just move up 7 spots. Jovo is a non-factor in the deal & just a cap dump.

I seriously hope Nonis is dumb enough to pull off that move which very well could be judging off last offseason.

LegionOfDoom91 is offline  
Old
06-02-2014, 04:17 PM
  #156
JDinkalage Morgoone
U of South Flurrida
 
JDinkalage Morgoone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: 308 Negra Arroyo Ln.
Country: Uzbekistan
Posts: 14,802
vCash: 1175
Quote:
Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post


They're giving up a top 6 center & a top 4 defender to just move up 7 spots. Jovo is a non-factor in the deal & just a cap dump.

I seriously hope Nonis is dumb enough to pull off that move which very well could be judging off last offseason.
I think FF is in the mindset that every 1st overall pick becomes a 100 pt player.

__________________
"Help was not promised, lovely girl. Only death."
JDinkalage Morgoone is offline  
Old
06-02-2014, 04:17 PM
  #157
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Ground Beef Invictus
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 67,599
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Striiker View Post
Whatever, I don't care what anyone thinks of the trades or how much people complain about the cup ********, I would make both of them again 1000 out of 1000 times. One step back and three steps forward.
We definitely haven't taken a step forward yet. Not until Schenn breaks out. If Schenn breaks out, assuming he doesn't just realize he needs to retire .

Overall, Homer said it best. They're not better, but they're different. Whether this different set of players can get it done remains to be seen...I don't think the build is done, so it's not time to judge yet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LegionOfDoom91 View Post


They're giving up a top 6 center & a top 4 defender to just move up 7 spots. Jovo is a non-factor in the deal & just a cap dump.

I seriously hope Nonis is dumb enough to pull off that move which very well could be judging off last offseason.
It would be a really Leafy thing to do. I'm rooting for it. I'm happy to let other teams have the WTF spotlight all on them without sharing it for an offseason.

Beef Invictus is offline  
Old
06-02-2014, 04:28 PM
  #158
zarley zelepukin
Registered User
 
zarley zelepukin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Norristown, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,955
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I wouldn't say they never would have, but it would have taken some time and would have been a less efficient, more painful rebuild if they were trading away a combination of lesser value players like Briere, Coburn, Carle, Hartnell, etc. to fit Bryz while also filling the roster out a bit/restocking the farm. They wouldn't have gotten guys like Simmonds or Voracek for those trades.
Or they could have not signed Bryz and kept Bob. If they still needed to move money, I think it makes more sense to lose depth players than your core guys. You don't get as much in return but they're also easier to replace.

zarley zelepukin is offline  
Old
06-02-2014, 04:29 PM
  #159
Striiker
I hate zebras
 
Striiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 20,064
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
We definitely haven't taken a step forward yet. Not until Schenn breaks out. If Schenn breaks out, assuming he doesn't just realize he needs to retire .

Overall, Homer said it best. They're not better, but they're different. Whether this different set of players can get it done remains to be seen...I don't think the build is done, so it's not time to judge yet.
I don't know about that... I think we're further forward than we would be with Richards and Carter here... imagine swapping them in for who we received, I think we'd be further away than we are now. Couturier is better defensively than either Richards or Carter and Schenn+Simmonds+Voracek are easily outproducing them offensively, so what are we really behind in? It also looks like the lockerroom chemistry is better with the current group and then who knows if Giroux is the same Giroux as we have today if those two are still on the team. The real thing that I think set us back was Pronger getting hurt which has nothing to do with the trades.

Striiker is offline  
Old
06-02-2014, 04:45 PM
  #160
Random Forest
aka hockeyfreak7
 
Random Forest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 13,737
vCash: 500
Yeah, I'm not sure how you can say we aren't better today with the trades than we'd be without them.

Without the trades, this is the team's present core (I've included the same future UFA signings/trades/buyouts just to put the team together):

Hartnell-Giroux-?????
Lecavalier-Carter-Akeson
Raffl-Richards-Read

Coburn-Timonen
Streit-MacDonald
LSchenn-??????


Yeah, things would have happened differently, and we'd have built around the team in different ways, but this is your core. You're downgrading big time from Richards to Couturier. And you lose an entire line in Voracek, Simmonds, and Schenn just to have Carter be your 2C.

It's crazy to think we would be doing better with that lineup. That third line would be awful these days, and if you think Schenn-Lecavalier-Simmonds was bad, I'd think that second line would be worse.

That's the core of a lottery team.

So much of what made the 2008-2011 Flyers a solid team was Briere being a decent player, Richards being a Selke center, Timonen not being 40, and Pronger. The Richards/Carter trades have allowed this team to survive those setbacks and ice a decent roster.


Last edited by Random Forest: 06-02-2014 at 04:53 PM.
Random Forest is offline  
Old
06-02-2014, 04:54 PM
  #161
zarley zelepukin
Registered User
 
zarley zelepukin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Norristown, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,955
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Yeah, I'm not sure how you can say we aren't better today with the trades than we'd be without them.

Without the trades, this is the team's present core (I've included the same future UFA signings/trades/buyouts just to put the team together):

Hartnell-Giroux-?????
Lecavalier-Carter-Akeson
Raffl-Richards-Read

Coburn-Timonen
Streit-MacDonald
LSchenn-??????


Yeah, things would have happened differently, and we'd have built around the team in different ways, but this is your core. You're downgrading big time from Richards to Couturier. And you lose and entire line in Voracek, Simmonds, and Schenn just to have Carter be your 2C.

It's crazy to think we would be doing better with that lineup. That third line would be awful these days, and if you think Schenn-Lecavalier-Simmonds was bad, I'd think that second line would be worse.

That's the core of a lottery team.

So much of what made the 2008-2011 Flyers a solid team was Briere being a decent player, Richards being a Selke center, Timonen not being 40, and Pronger. The Richards/Carter trades have allowed this team to survive those setbacks and ice a decent roster.
It's too hard to say what the rest of the team would look like. They don't likely sign Lecavalier if they already have 3 centers entrenched. Maybe without having the extra depth provided by Simmonds and Voracek on the wing, they don't trade JVR. Maybe they could have found another way to save money by trading Hartnell and Carle instead. There's too much unknown.

zarley zelepukin is offline  
Old
06-02-2014, 04:57 PM
  #162
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Ground Beef Invictus
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 67,599
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Striiker View Post
I don't know about that... I think we're further forward than we would be with Richards and Carter here...
OK, we weren't on the same page. I thought you meant compared to the day we made the trades. Compared to where the team would be without making trades to get multiple young players and picks, yes, we are definitely ahead of where we would be, probably by a good amount. There was a real crisis brewing.

Beef Invictus is offline  
Old
06-02-2014, 04:58 PM
  #163
Random Forest
aka hockeyfreak7
 
Random Forest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 13,737
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
It's too hard to say what the rest of the team would look like. They don't likely sign Lecavalier if they already have 3 centers entrenched. Maybe without having the extra depth provided by Simmonds and Voracek on the wing, they don't trade JVR. Maybe they could have found another way to save money by trading Hartnell and Carle instead. There's too much unknown.
Yeah, there's too much unknown, but one thing is patently obvious: that core sucks. No team will ever win a Cup without a solid core.

The offense takes some massive blows (even if you want to reverse the JVR trade, too, it's still worse than today).

And our D is at the very best equal to what it is today.

I just fail to see any way in which this team would be better off today having kept those two.

Random Forest is offline  
Old
06-02-2014, 05:03 PM
  #164
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Ground Beef Invictus
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 67,599
vCash: 500
Now that I'm having the same conversation as everyone else, I'll take a guess:

JVR-Giroux-Read
Hartnell-Carter- (Briere!?)
Raffl-Richards-
Rinaldo-Hall-

Timonen-Coburn
Streit/Carle-
- (Probably keep Mez? What happens with Gus? Are AHL guys in these spots?)

Bob



That's something. I guess we might still have Talbot around out of pure necessity. That's a roster that would have necessitated some emergency trades/signings, I think. If they sign Bryz then who knows what goal looks like or what the roster looks like after trying to fix that, or what happens in general.

Beef Invictus is offline  
Old
06-02-2014, 05:08 PM
  #165
zarley zelepukin
Registered User
 
zarley zelepukin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Norristown, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,955
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfreak7 View Post
Yeah, there's too much unknown, but one thing is patently obvious: that core sucks. No team will ever win a Cup without a solid core.

The offense takes some massive blows (even if you want to reverse the JVR trade, too, it's still worse than today).

And our D is at the very best equal to what it is today.

I just fail to see any way in which this team would be better off today having kept those two.
I don't think a Giroux-Carter-Richards-maybe JVR core sucks. The success of the team would depend on what you fill in around it. I don't agree that the offense takes a massive hit either, again depending on who the complimentary pieces are. I know that team would be better down the middle than our current team and probably worse on the wing.

zarley zelepukin is offline  
Old
06-02-2014, 05:10 PM
  #166
Striiker
I hate zebras
 
Striiker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Lehigh Valley, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 20,064
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
OK, we weren't on the same page. I thought you meant compared to the day we made the trades. Compared to where the team would be without making trades to get multiple young players and picks, yes, we are definitely ahead of where we would be, probably by a good amount. There was a real crisis brewing.
All is well.

#Schenn4MVP

Striiker is offline  
Old
06-02-2014, 05:10 PM
  #167
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Ground Beef Invictus
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 67,599
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
I don't think a Giroux-Carter-Richards-maybe JVR core sucks. The success of the team would depend on what you fill in around it. I don't agree that the offense takes a massive hit either, again depending on who the complimentary pieces are. I know that team would be better down the middle than our current team and probably worse on the wing.
The bare minimum core itself isn't bad at forward. Lacking badly at D, and the core wouldn't have much of a supporting cast at F...with likely no hope in the pipeline.

I bet we would have Clarkson

Beef Invictus is offline  
Old
06-02-2014, 05:17 PM
  #168
Random Forest
aka hockeyfreak7
 
Random Forest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 13,737
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
I don't think a Giroux-Carter-Richards-maybe JVR core sucks. The success of the team would depend on what you fill in around it. I don't agree that the offense takes a massive hit either, again depending on who the complimentary pieces are. I know that team would be better down the middle than our current team and probably worse on the wing.
I agree, we would still have JVR, so there is that. But Richards is not a viable shutdown center anymore. Carter is a very good two way centerman, but he's not someone you match up against the opposition's best.

Without that cog, this team is not winning any playoff series. We got extremely lucky with Couturier. This team is miserable without that kind of a shutdown presence especially given the weakness of the D.

And shutdown guys are not players you find in the UFA market, so it's more than just picking up complementary pieces. This team doesn't stand a chance against Crosby/Malkin/Stamkos type players without such a player.

Random Forest is offline  
Old
06-02-2014, 05:17 PM
  #169
zarley zelepukin
Registered User
 
zarley zelepukin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Norristown, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,955
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
The bare minimum core itself isn't bad at forward. Lacking badly at D, and the core wouldn't have much of a supporting cast at F...with likely no hope in the pipeline.

I bet we would have Clarkson
Can't stop them from making bad choices in free agency, I guess

zarley zelepukin is offline  
Old
06-02-2014, 05:26 PM
  #170
The Couturier Effect
Registered User
 
The Couturier Effect's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Country: United States
Posts: 4,341
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
It doesn't matter

Oduya not attempting to play defense is reason for goal ,, Not gonna blame refs
I'm not blaming the refs, I was just pointing out that they missed it.

The Couturier Effect is offline  
Old
06-02-2014, 05:28 PM
  #171
Random Forest
aka hockeyfreak7
 
Random Forest's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 13,737
vCash: 500
Honestly, I think most people's projections of what this team "could have been" are influenced more by the JVR trade than either of the two bigger ones. Carter would be nice to have back, but we got incredible value for him. That's a net win. Richards wouldn't be great to have back; obviously that's a net win.

It's the JVR trade that makes the other two look worse. Reversing that trade is what makes the Flyers better today. Not reversing either of the other two.

Random Forest is offline  
Old
06-02-2014, 05:29 PM
  #172
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Ground Beef Invictus
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 67,599
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
Can't stop them from making bad choices in free agency, I guess
And I'm not sure they would have had any choice but to resort to expensive FA contracts if they were desperate to contend ASAP.

Beef Invictus is offline  
Old
06-02-2014, 06:18 PM
  #173
zarley zelepukin
Registered User
 
zarley zelepukin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Norristown, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 1,955
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
And I'm not sure they would have had any choice but to resort to expensive FA contracts if they were desperate to contend ASAP.
I do think they could have gotten decent returns for some other guys (like maybe Carle, who they let walk anyway), but obviously not the same level they did with Carter and Richards. Some free agent signings would have been necessary for sure. But the fear that they might bungle those shouldn't influence the way we appraise the trades.

zarley zelepukin is offline  
Old
06-02-2014, 06:26 PM
  #174
Beef Invictus
Global Moderator
Ground Beef Invictus
 
Beef Invictus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Centreville
Country: Lord Howe Island
Posts: 67,599
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by zarley zelepukin View Post
I do think they could have gotten decent returns for some other guys (like maybe Carle, who they let walk anyway), but obviously not the same level they did with Carter and Richards. Some free agent signings would have been necessary for sure. But the fear that they might bungle those shouldn't influence the way we appraise the trades.
Honestly the way we appraise the trades isn't close to being set in stone. A lot of outside fans seem to think it is. If I'm in a sad mood I'll think so too. But the story is far from written. You could say it's....Unwritten. Take it, Natasha.


Beef Invictus is offline  
Old
06-02-2014, 07:27 PM
  #175
GKJ
Global Moderator
Entertainment
 
GKJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Country: United States
Posts: 128,041
vCash: 50
"It wouldn't have happened here" because obviously the organization didn't know how to properly construct the team around the people that were here. In turn, the decision maker was removed from that position.


Luckily there is a new decision maker, in which the Carter/Richards trades aren't hanging over his head.

__________________
Philadelphia's Real Alternative
(ynotradio.net)

My 50 Favorite Albums of 2015

"I wonder if Norstrom has Forsberg's spleen mounted on his wall." - KINGS17
GKJ is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:52 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2017 All Rights Reserved.