HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Rick Nash Part II

View Poll Results: Do you want to get rid of Rick Nash?
Yes 153 65.95%
No 79 34.05%
Voters: 232. You may not vote on this poll

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-19-2014, 02:08 PM
  #901
Jersey Girl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,911
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
Good thing there are other teams in the league who don't find themselves in the exact circumstances the Rangers do.

There will always be a team that has cap space and wants a 30 goal scorer.
If Sather can find a taker for Nash he should definitely make that trade. I'm just not as optimistic as you that he'll find one. It's not about 'exact same circumstances', it's about what team is willing to commit $7.8 million to Nash for four years, or would rather go after a Stastny or someone else instead.

After the national criticism Nash received in this year's playoffs, there will also be teams who question if he is still a guaranteed 30 goal scorer for the next four years.

Doesn't Nash have a NTC clause, though? Didn't he have to waive it to come here? Or is that no longer in effect?

Jersey Girl is offline  
Old
06-19-2014, 02:16 PM
  #902
DelZottoHitTheNetJK
Registered User
 
DelZottoHitTheNetJK's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 799
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
Good thing there are other teams in the league who don't find themselves in the exact circumstances the Rangers do.

There will always be a team that has cap space and wants a 30 goal scorer.
Agreed. Nash is the type of player that puts butts in the seats and sells jerseys. Pretty sure the Oilers would love him at $7.8M. He would likely never waive to a bottom feeder team though

DelZottoHitTheNetJK is offline  
Old
06-19-2014, 02:16 PM
  #903
haveandare
Registered User
 
haveandare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 5,855
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
If Sather can find a taker for Nash he should definitely make that trade. I'm just not as optimistic as you that he'll find one. It's not about 'exact same circumstance's, it's about what team is willing to commit $7.8 million to Nash for four years, or would rather go after a Stastny or someone else instead.

Doesn't Nash have a NTC clause, though? Didn't he have to waive it to come here? Or is that no longer in effect?
From what I understand, he has an NTC for the remainder of his contract, to 17-18, but he has an NMC that is up to start 15-16. Not 100% sure what the practical differences are in that case, but it seems like they could send him down after the NMC is up, but I can't really see that happening anyway.

There are better players that are available in different ways, yeah. But, only one team ultimately ends up with each player. There are teams with cap space. There are teams that need scoring. If I were running a team that were in that situation, why would I not want Nash?

I think you are drastically underestimating Nash's value based on his admittedly poor playoff performance.

haveandare is offline  
Old
06-19-2014, 02:24 PM
  #904
Jersey Girl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,911
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by haveandare View Post
From what I understand, he has an NTC for the remainder of his contract, to 17-18, but he has an NMC that is up to start 15-16. Not 100% sure what the practical differences are in that case, but it seems like they could send him down after the NMC is up, but I can't really see that happening anyway.

There are better players that are available in different ways, yeah. But, only one team ultimately ends up with each player. There are teams with cap space. There are teams that need scoring. If I were running a team that were in that situation, why would I not want Nash?

I think you are drastically underestimating Nash's value based on his admittedly poor playoff performance.
Ironically, if you check my post history you'll see I'm the one defending Nash through the playoffs, because I thought he played hard and did some outstanding checking. Most of the people I was disagreeing with were saying he hasn't been the same since his concussion, and may never be the same.

Now that the playoffs smoke has cleared, I think there is truth to their statement that he may not be the same post-concussion, and, of course, what team knows better than us that he's now more vulnerable to future concussions.

I would love the idea of trading him, I just don't think chances are high, and NTC or NMC, he could also veto any deal. I don't know where he stands on that, but if he was adamant about not leaving, a compliance buyout would be the only option. You can get a lot of really good checking (amongst other things) for $7.8 million of cap hit.

I'm also not confident he is a guaranteed 30 goal going forward, and there may be GM's who share that sentiment.

Jersey Girl is offline  
Old
06-19-2014, 02:49 PM
  #905
TeamStewie
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 340
vCash: 920
Spezza for Nash, too bad that will never happen.

TeamStewie is offline  
Old
06-19-2014, 02:55 PM
  #906
Jersey Girl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,911
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamStewie View Post
Spezza for Nash, too bad that will never happen.
Why not?

Jersey Girl is offline  
Old
06-19-2014, 02:56 PM
  #907
Dactyl
Registered User
 
Dactyl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NY
Country: United States
Posts: 7,344
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamStewie View Post
Spezza for Nash, too bad that will never happen.
Oh god we lose that trade

Dactyl is offline  
Old
06-19-2014, 03:01 PM
  #908
Ail
k.
 
Ail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Mysidia
Country: United States
Posts: 16,364
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TeamStewie View Post
Spezza for Nash, too bad that will never happen.
Thankfully it won't.

__________________
Ail is offline  
Old
06-19-2014, 03:02 PM
  #909
GAGLine
Registered User
 
GAGLine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 9,169
vCash: 500
After looking at the list for 5v5 goals per 60 minutes over the last 2 years, I thought it might be interesting to do a comparison between Nash (#1 on the list) and Anisimov (#9 on the list).

This analysis includes all goals, not just 5v5, and only includes regular season games over the last 2 years.

Games:
Nash: 109
Anisimov: 116

Goals:
Nash: 47
Anisimov: 33

Games vs playoff teams:
Nash: 58
Anisimov: 62

Goals vs playoff teams:
Nash: 15
Anisimov: 17

Artie spent 2012-13 in the western conference, which is considered by pretty much everyone to be better overall than the east.

From this data, it seems that Artie was the more consistent player, putting up the same number of goals against the best teams as he did against the worst. Conversely, Nash got 2/3rds of his goals against weak competition.

Maybe Nash's post-season struggles aren't really that surprising after all.


Last edited by GAGLine: 06-19-2014 at 04:46 PM.
GAGLine is offline  
Old
06-19-2014, 03:05 PM
  #910
Jersey Girl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,911
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dactyl View Post
Oh god we lose that trade
Not sure if I agree with that.

Jersey Girl is offline  
Old
06-19-2014, 03:15 PM
  #911
Fletch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 21,453
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
After looking at the list for 5v5 goals per 60 minutes over the last 2 years, I thought it might be interesting to do a comparison between Nash (#1 on the list) and Anisimov (#9 on the list).

This analysis includes all goals, not just 5v5, and only includes regular season games over the last 2 years.

Games:
Nash: 109
Anisimov: 116

Goals:
Nash: 47
Anisimov: 33

Games vs playoff teams:
Nash: 58
Anisimov: 62

Goals vs playoff teams:
Nash: 15
Anisimov: 17

Artie spent 2012-13 in the western conference, which has more playoff teams, but also is considered by pretty much everyone to be better overall than the east.

From this data, it seems that Artie was the more consistent player, putting up the same number of goals against the best teams as he did against the worst. Conversely, Nash got 2/3rds of his goals against weak competition.

Maybe Nash's post-season struggles aren't really that surprising after all.
Think I read the data a bit differently. Nash scored a couple less goals against playoff teams, but in a few less games, and he scored more goals overall. OK, it's lesser talent, but wins against those "lesser" teams are still an important part to even making it to the playoffs. The playoffs are a different story; I'm just saying that this analysis doesn't really suggest Artie was more consistent.

Fletch is offline  
Old
06-19-2014, 03:17 PM
  #912
Dactyl
Registered User
 
Dactyl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NY
Country: United States
Posts: 7,344
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
Not sure if I agree with that.
Spezza is bad. He's slow and injured way too often. I wouldn't really consider him much of an upgrade over Stepan who half this board hates. So much oooohhhhhh shiny new toy syndrome on this board. People literally love everyone who is decent at hockey who isn't a ranger or was a ranger. Dubi and Gabs had most of this board hate them. Most wanted them gone and now everyone wants them back. Seems like most were indifferent or didn't mind losing AA.

Anyway back on topic, Spezza straight up for Nash is a BAD trade

Dactyl is offline  
Old
06-19-2014, 03:27 PM
  #913
Jersey Girl
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 3,911
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dactyl View Post
Spezza is bad. He's slow and injured way too often. I wouldn't really consider him much of an upgrade over Stepan who half this board hates. So much oooohhhhhh shiny new toy syndrome on this board. People literally love everyone who is decent at hockey who isn't a ranger or was a ranger. Dubi and Gabs had most of this board hate them. Most wanted them gone and now everyone wants them back. Seems like most were indifferent or didn't mind losing AA.

Anyway back on topic, Spezza straight up for Nash is a BAD trade
I don't disagree with anything you said about Spezza, but I think it would be fair to add that Spezza has had some playoff scoring success that Nash clearly lacks.

The bigger factor for me is that Spezza only has one year left on his contract, which means we'd have one more year of a $7 million cap and then the cap space frees up - which we can use on somebody else, or to sign our own free agents next summer.

Ottawa would then be stuck with Nash's $7.8 million cap hit the next four years, but they'd get to sell all those Nash jerseys. Interesting.

Jersey Girl is offline  
Old
06-19-2014, 04:04 PM
  #914
haveandare
Registered User
 
haveandare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: New York
Country: United States
Posts: 5,855
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jersey Girl View Post
Ironically, if you check my post history you'll see I'm the one defending Nash through the playoffs, because I thought he played hard and did some outstanding checking. Most of the people I was disagreeing with were saying he hasn't been the same since his concussion, and may never be the same.

Now that the playoffs smoke has cleared, I think there is truth to their statement that he may not be the same post-concussion, and, of course, what team knows better than us that he's now more vulnerable to future concussions.

I would love the idea of trading him, I just don't think chances are high, and NTC or NMC, he could also veto any deal. I don't know where he stands on that, but if he was adamant about not leaving, a compliance buyout would be the only option. You can get a lot of really good checking (amongst other things) for $7.8 million of cap hit.

I'm also not confident he is a guaranteed 30 goal going forward, and there may be GM's who share that sentiment.
I'm really not comfortable with essentially throwing away Dubi, AA, a first, and Rick Nash for 7.8 million dollars of cap space just because Nash has been off for a little less than a season. That is awful, awful asset management. That'd be something like the Caps buying out OV when he was slumping last year. You give up a real asset, in Nash's case with the Rangers, a chain of assets, and cross your fingers that you happened to be right about pinpointing a player's permanent decline based on a comparatively small sample of struggling. It's one thing to talk about it on a forum, but if a GM makes that move and then Nash rebounds, which is not at all out of the realm of possibility based on the fairly regular nature of extended slumps with high level scoring forwards, they would be crucified, and rightly so.

I don't share this extreme pessimism with Nash. If/when he rebounds, he'll be another guy in a long line of guys to have trouble scoring for a season or so. He knows that he needs to adjust in some way. He has a whole offseason to work on it. He's been a scoring machine on this level for years and years and years and he's not so old that his body is declining.

haveandare is offline  
Old
06-19-2014, 04:43 PM
  #915
GAGLine
Registered User
 
GAGLine's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 9,169
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fletch View Post
Think I read the data a bit differently. Nash scored a couple less goals against playoff teams, but in a few less games, and he scored more goals overall. OK, it's lesser talent, but wins against those "lesser" teams are still an important part to even making it to the playoffs. The playoffs are a different story; I'm just saying that this analysis doesn't really suggest Artie was more consistent.
Artie scored just as much against strong teams as he did against weak teams. Nash scored 2 times as much against weak teams as strong teams.

When I say Artie was more consistent, I'm talking about consistency based on strength of the opponent, not game to game.

Regardless, Artie has a slightly higher goals per game average than Nash against playoff teams. If I had done goals per 60 minutes, the disparity would be even greater since Nash gets more ice time per game.

Nash can score 30 goals a year, but it doesn't matter if he doesn't score them when the games matter most.

GAGLine is offline  
Old
06-19-2014, 04:44 PM
  #916
ltrangerfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 932
vCash: 500
The poll on the top of this thread is meaningless.

What does... Do you want to get rid of Rick Nash mean?

Trade to whom? For what?

Heck, I would get rid of Lundy for the "right deal".

Without specifics the question is like an English sentence translated into Japanese and then back into English. What does it mean?

ltrangerfan is offline  
Old
06-19-2014, 04:49 PM
  #917
Fletch
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Brooklyn
Posts: 21,453
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
Artie scored just as much against strong teams as he did against weak teams. Nash scored 2 times as much against weak teams as strong teams.

When I say Artie was more consistent, I'm talking about consistency based on strength of the opponent, not game to game.

Regardless, Artie has a slightly higher goals per game average than Nash against playoff teams. If I had done goals per 60 minutes, the disparity would be even greater since Nash gets more ice time per game.

Nash can score 30 goals a year, but it doesn't matter if he doesn't score them when the games matter most.
30 goals does matter. Still need to get to the playoffs. Can't just transplant a guy into the playoffs without going through the full year grind to help your team get there. And if you're taking averages, compare total goals scored during the season as a percent of games. I don't always extrapolate, but since you did, you can do that.

Fletch is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 11:30 AM
  #918
Brian Boyle
portnor, pls
 
Brian Boyle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Victoria, BC
Country: Canada
Posts: 15,036
vCash: 659
https://twitter.com/zellenthal/statu...97770342649856

Quote:
On Jan. 3, the Rangers playoff odds were 21.76%. Then Rick Nash scored 11 goals in 11 games and the odds were up to 80.3% by the end of Jan.

__________________


Rangers Unlimited
Hockey Graphs
Brian Boyle is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 11:39 AM
  #919
Bleed Ranger Blue
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 14,811
vCash: 500
Then he took the rest of the year off.

Bleed Ranger Blue is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 11:43 AM
  #920
iamthewalrus
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Country: United States
Posts: 621
vCash: 920
If you ain't first, you're last

iamthewalrus is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 11:54 AM
  #921
Ail
k.
 
Ail's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Mysidia
Country: United States
Posts: 16,364
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by iamthewalrus View Post
If you ain't first, you're last
Okay.

Ail is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 12:04 PM
  #922
Beacon
Sent to HF Minors
 
Beacon's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 8,255
vCash: 500
If we could get a cheap young second line LW for Nash, we'd be better off. Alternatively, maybe Nash and Brass for an above average 1C.

Beacon is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 06:10 PM
  #923
GWOW
Two Pucks, One Cup
 
GWOW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Country: United States
Posts: 14,478
vCash: 500
I don't want Nash gone because I've decided his new nickname is Lumpy Space Princess.

GWOW is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 06:20 PM
  #924
vladmyir111
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,987
vCash: 50
Let's look at the bright side, can he possibly choke in his third playoff in a row?

vladmyir111 is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 06:23 PM
  #925
KingWantsCup
Super Saiyan Hank
 
KingWantsCup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 5,300
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by GAGLine View Post
After looking at the list for 5v5 goals per 60 minutes over the last 2 years, I thought it might be interesting to do a comparison between Nash (#1 on the list) and Anisimov (#9 on the list).

This analysis includes all goals, not just 5v5, and only includes regular season games over the last 2 years.

Games:
Nash: 109
Anisimov: 116

Goals:
Nash: 47
Anisimov: 33

Games vs playoff teams:
Nash: 58
Anisimov: 62

Goals vs playoff teams:
Nash: 15
Anisimov: 17

Artie spent 2012-13 in the western conference, which is considered by pretty much everyone to be better overall than the east.

From this data, it seems that Artie was the more consistent player, putting up the same number of goals against the best teams as he did against the worst. Conversely, Nash got 2/3rds of his goals against weak competition.

Maybe Nash's post-season struggles aren't really that surprising after all.
I am far from a Nash fan, but you can't make this comparison without a rather large asterisk. Nash regularly faced top pairing defensemen and was an obvious target to focus on for defensive assignments given this team's lack of top end talent.

That's still not enough to excuse Nash's playoff suckage, but it has to be kept in mind.


Last edited by KingWantsCup: 06-26-2014 at 06:30 PM.
KingWantsCup is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:45 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.