HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Crosby vs. Claude Lemieux... or Fedorov

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-08-2014, 08:29 PM
  #76
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,601
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
And what years are you referring to exactly?

In 13 playoff runs with the Wings he had 163 points in 162 games, was a +38 and either led or was tied for team scoring leader 8 times. Even in the years that he wasn't a PpG player he was barely under the margin...
1991 6 points in 7 games (Tied for team lead)
1992 10 in 11 (led team)

1993 9 in 7 (2nd in team scoring)
1994 8 in 7 (led team)
1995 24 in 17 (led team)
1996 20 in 19 (Tied for team lead)
1997 20 in 20 (Led team)
1998 20 in 22 (2nd in team scoring)
1999 9 in 10 (4th in team scoring)
2000 8 in 9 (led team)

2001 7 in 6 (2nd in team scoring)
2002 19 in 23 (tied for 2nd in team scoring)
2003 3 in 4 (led team)


That's pretty consistent and then once one considers that he was playing a much more active 2-way/shut down game, killing penalties and even playing as a Dman here and there...do you really think you have an argument for Crosby over Fedorov over the long haul?
I don't, not yet anyway and certainly not based on Crosby's last 4 playoffs, that's for sure.

The reality is that even when Fedorov wasn't producing points, he was still heavily contributing to his team's chances of winning.
When Crosby isn't producing points, he's really not helping his team any where near the degree that a Fedorov, a Zetterberg or a Toews is still helping theirs.

And just to put this in perspective, I would rank Yzerman followed by Lidstrom ahead of Fedorov in terms of importance on the wings over those 13 years.
well since you are citing playoffs above it's really hard to make a good argument for Yzerman over Feds in that time frame.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

also while one can make arguments of Zetts and Dats have more overall value in the playoffs over Sid's time in the NHL it's hard to really make a strong case for anyone else at this point.

Sid hardly "sucked" this year, as has been suggested by some and heck in 12 clearly any team was going to have a tough time making it out of the first round with a .828 save %.

Last time I checked Sid didn't play net.


Here BTW is how Sid stacks up in the playoffs against all competition during his time in the league.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Pretty decent one would have to admit.

Hardyvan123 is offline  
Old
06-08-2014, 09:03 PM
  #77
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 21,371
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fugu View Post
Just a minor nit, as I agree with most of what you wrote here. I'd say Lidstrom was the one constant for 4 Cups, and almost 5, so would add him to the list even if we limit it to Yzerman-Fedorov era.
All three would be m 1-2-3 on those teams (can't say anything past 2002 because Yzerman and Fedorov weren't there)




I think we do have to look past the raw numbers a bit with Crosby here too. He was great in 2008 and 2009. I thought there would be more ones just like that. When he dominated against the Senators in the opening round of 2010 I just thought we were going to see a legend in the making. Then he can't do a thing against the Habs. A big upset. Then he's injured in 2011. Then he is totally outclassed by the Flyers and thrown off his game in 2012 even though he scored some points, but not enough. Then in 2013 he is playing good through the first two rounds and then is shutout against Boston. Then 2014 is an all around disaster.

I'm not convinced a pre-concussion Crosby is better than the post-concussion one. He just won an Art Ross. He nearly won one last year despite missing 25% of the season. This is a guy who should be winning playoff series on his own. He isn't a headcase you have to be delicate with. He's in his prime, he should be dominating immensely and this is the issue I have with him today. He isn't doing this.

So we can look at the other elite players in the NHL and agree that with the exception of Zetterberg no one has been better in the playoffs other than Sid but this isn't really what the OP is all about. Because looking at the rest of the elite players, Sid still looks alright:

Stamkos - playoff bust so far in his career
Ovechkin - scores a lot, but can't lead
Malkin - is pretty equal to Crosby actually, has had his fair share of bad postseasons though too
Giroux - Hasn't taken the Flyers anywhere since he's been "the Man"
Toews - in recent years has outplayed Crosby in postseason, but has one Smythe worthy run while Crosby has two
Getzlaf - Hasn't been out of the second round since he won the Cup. However, he does score win or lose.

So he does fare pretty good that way. But this is from an all-time level and Fedorov is an all-time playoff performer. And a pretty good one. Right now you'd have to give the edge to Feds.

Big Phil is offline  
Old
06-08-2014, 09:05 PM
  #78
TAnnala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Country: Finland
Posts: 16,944
vCash: 50
I have to admit, Feds is looking better and better the more I think about it.

The thing is, even adding in the playoff failures Crosby has had in the past few years, he still is #1 in PPG and raw points over his career in playoffs. Now, if it is true that he has been "worthless" in the past playoffs, how fricking good was he in the earlier stages of his career if he can still be in the clear lead? Or maybe some of us are just giving him too hard time from his lats 3-4 playoff runs?

Either it is one of the above, or the current stack of players is really, really, weak if Fedorov (not to even mention Claude!) can be considered clearly ahead of Crosby, who is clearly in the running for the #1 playoff performer overall and at absolute worst, #3.

I do consider Fedorov as one of the greats from the 90's, but is my memory failing me when I think he only had one truly all-time great RS and playoff effort? A lot of good/great one's, but only once was he in the running for the best player. Even if we remove Lemieux from the equation.

TAnnala is offline  
Old
06-09-2014, 04:10 AM
  #79
daver
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Country: Norfolk Island
Posts: 5,175
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
All three would be m 1-2-3 on those teams (can't say anything past 2002 because Yzerman and Fedorov weren't there)




I think we do have to look past the raw numbers a bit with Crosby here too. He was great in 2008 and 2009. I thought there would be more ones just like that. When he dominated against the Senators in the opening round of 2010 I just thought we were going to see a legend in the making. Then he can't do a thing against the Habs. A big upset. Then he's injured in 2011. Then he is totally outclassed by the Flyers and thrown off his game in 2012 even though he scored some points, but not enough. Then in 2013 he is playing good through the first two rounds and then is shutout against Boston. Then 2014 is an all around disaster.

I'm not convinced a pre-concussion Crosby is better than the post-concussion one. He just won an Art Ross. He nearly won one last year despite missing 25% of the season. This is a guy who should be winning playoff series on his own. He isn't a headcase you have to be delicate with. He's in his prime, he should be dominating immensely and this is the issue I have with him today. He isn't doing this.

So we can look at the other elite players in the NHL and agree that with the exception of Zetterberg no one has been better in the playoffs other than Sid but this isn't really what the OP is all about. Because looking at the rest of the elite players, Sid still looks alright:

Stamkos - playoff bust so far in his career
Ovechkin - scores a lot, but can't lead
Malkin - is pretty equal to Crosby actually, has had his fair share of bad postseasons though too
Giroux - Hasn't taken the Flyers anywhere since he's been "the Man"
Toews - in recent years has outplayed Crosby in postseason, but has one Smythe worthy run while Crosby has two
Getzlaf - Hasn't been out of the second round since he won the Cup. However, he does score win or lose.

So he does fare pretty good that way. But this is from an all-time level and Fedorov is an all-time playoff performer. And a pretty good one. Right now you'd have to give the edge to Feds.
You have some good points but to be fair you have to take off the Wayne glasses. No player or team is doing anything close to what Wayne and Oilers did, and it just isn't realistic to place that expectation on Crosby and the Pens. It's ironic that it was Wayne himself that set this standard for Crosby, and only Crosby, to be measured against. Him not leading his team to the Cup is considered a failure.

Would Wayne be leading his team to multiple Cups in this day and age? Mario and Orr only have two Cups each but that certainly isn't cited often, if at all, as any kind of shortcoming.

That being said, was 2010 really an upset for the Pens and Crosby or is the league much more competitive these days that dynasties of the past just don't happen anymore. Only two teams in the last 14 years have gotten back to the final after being there the previous year. I don't see where teams like the Hawks, Bruins, and Kings are getting ripped apart for not getting back to the finals year after year.

In a similar theme, was it realistic to expect Crosby to light it up every single series, and when he didn't, deem it a failure. His closest offensive playoff rival, Malkin, was less effective against MTL than him but I can guarantee you that rarely, if ever, gets brought up in discussions about playoff performances. Or when Teows or Kopitar lay an egg, why don't they get ripped apart for "failing"? To the contrary, they only gets accolades for the times where they did succeed.

It's hard to say what has happened 2012 onwards. He certainly has become more a perimeter player which isn't surprising given his concussion and maybe that has made him less effective in the playoffs. Hard to say. There is still plenty of time for him to make adjustments. I wouldn't count him out yet.

As for the comparison to Fedorov, at the same point in their careers, both have great playoff runs on their resume. Hard to choose between them. If you only focus on 2012 - 2014 Crosby, then Fedorov > Crosby. If you only focus on 2007-2010 Crosby, then Crosby > Fedorov.


Last edited by daver: 06-09-2014 at 06:10 AM.
daver is offline  
Old
06-09-2014, 09:54 AM
  #80
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 43,550
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
I have to admit, Feds is looking better and better the more I think about it.

The thing is, even adding in the playoff failures Crosby has had in the past few years, he still is #1 in PPG and raw points over his career in playoffs. Now, if it is true that he has been "worthless" in the past playoffs, how fricking good was he in the earlier stages of his career if he can still be in the clear lead? Or maybe some of us are just giving him too hard time from his lats 3-4 playoff runs?

Either it is one of the above, or the current stack of players is really, really, weak if Fedorov (not to even mention Claude!) can be considered clearly ahead of Crosby, who is clearly in the running for the #1 playoff performer overall and at absolute worst, #3.

I do consider Fedorov as one of the greats from the 90's, but is my memory failing me when I think he only had one truly all-time great RS and playoff effort? A lot of good/great one's, but only once was he in the running for the best player. Even if we remove Lemieux from the equation.
For me, what stood out about Fedorov in the playoffs is that during the Wings' great run between the lockouts, he was the only one of their stars to never have a bad playoff. Yzerman and Lidstrom had a few down years (as does almost every player), but Fedorov seemed to always be good. Never a year when I thought "if Fedorov played better, they could have won."

Regular season? Yeah... nothing special outside of 93-94 and 95-96. Brings me to another point - Fedorov had the luxury of playing on a team so stacked that after 95-96, he basically coasted through the regular season, saving himself for the playoffs. Maybe that needs to be taken into account when comparing his playoffs with Crosby. If Crosby coasted through the regular season like Feds, do the Penguins make the playoffs?

TheDevilMadeMe is offline  
Old
06-09-2014, 11:04 AM
  #81
Sentinel
Registered User
 
Sentinel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 3,984
vCash: 500
Nobody brings Wayne into this conversation, that's just silly.

A couple of additional points:

1. I don't remember Fedorov ever having a bad playoff. Even when he wasn't scoring (though he always was, like R71 has shown), he defensive play was always top notch. He NEVER had a bad stretch like Crosby did in 2010-14.

2. When Crosby fails, he literally COSTS HIS TEAM wins. Sure, Fleury is not exactly a model of consistency, but neither was Bryzgalov in that epic series. With Fedorov it was never a problem. The only time it can be argued that Fedorov could've done more was in the 2001 LA fiasco, but then he was literally the ONLY star player in the lineup (both Y and Shanahan were injured).

3. I would be the first to admit Feds coasted during the RS. And Sid owns the RS. But when evaluating a player, how can you seriously weigh RS over PO? Look at LA of the last few years. They all coast during the RS, and look where they are now. All their star players deliver when it matters, Quick or no Quick. This is why I rank Kopitar above Crosby now.

4. In Fedorov's early years DRW was a weaker club than Crosby's Penguins.

5. Overall I believe today's star players are weaker than 80s and 90s stars. But that's for a different conversation.

Sentinel is offline  
Old
06-09-2014, 11:41 AM
  #82
Iain Fyffe
Hockey fact-checker
 
Iain Fyffe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Fredericton, NB
Country: Canada
Posts: 3,086
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
2. When Crosby fails, he literally COSTS HIS TEAM wins. Sure, Fleury is not exactly a model of consistency, but neither was Bryzgalov in that epic series. With Fedorov it was never a problem. The only time it can be argued that Fedorov could've done more was in the 2001 LA fiasco, but then he was literally the ONLY star player in the lineup (both Y and Shanahan were injured).
This sounds like you're saying that Fedorov played for better teams, so that if he didn't play well the rest of the team could cope better than Crosby's teams.

Are you suggesting Crosby should be judged poorly based on the fact that Fedorov had better teammates?

Iain Fyffe is offline  
Old
06-09-2014, 12:00 PM
  #83
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 26,254
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Feds is by a bit the best playoff performer of the 3 followed by Sid and than Claude (unless GP matters I guess).

feds is under rated for his career but still an all time great, as is Sid, but will Claude even be considered a top 40 (or 60) winger?

Not sure about that
.
Yes, I'm sure about that. The answer is NO

seventieslord is offline  
Old
06-09-2014, 12:12 PM
  #84
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,826
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
For me, what stood out about Fedorov in the playoffs is that during the Wings' great run between the lockouts, he was the only one of their stars to never have a bad playoff. Yzerman and Lidstrom had a few down years (as does almost every player), but Fedorov seemed to always be good. Never a year when I thought "if Fedorov played better, they could have won."

Regular season? Yeah... nothing special outside of 93-94 and 95-96. Brings me to another point - Fedorov had the luxury of playing on a team so stacked that after 95-96, he basically coasted through the regular season, saving himself for the playoffs. Maybe that needs to be taken into account when comparing his playoffs with Crosby. If Crosby coasted through the regular season like Feds, do the Penguins make the playoffs?
Well...lets see.
07/08 Sid misses 29 games and the Pens finish tied for 4th overall and 2nd in the conference
10/11 Sid misses 41 games AND Malkin misses 39 games, Pens finish tied for 3rd overall and 2nd in their Conference
11/12 Sid misses 60 games, Pens finish 4th overall and 2nd in Conference
12/13 Sid missed 12 of 48 games and Malkin missed 17 of 48, Pens finish 2nd overall and first in their Conference

The bolded for 10/11 really tells a story of how strong the Pens are on their own without Sid/Malkin for big chunks.

I think the answer to your question is a little obvious, no?


And to be honest, I didn't think Sid looked tired in the PO's this year, he looked frustrated and really, disinterested at times.
Granted, mental fatigue from a long season can be even worse than physical fatigue but at the same time...Sid is hardly the first player or especially the first superstar to have to play the exact same sched.

People are always complaining that Sid is being nitpicked or being held to a higher standard but you know what, he should be if he's going to have the title of best player in the world. It comes with the territory.

The thing that gets me the most is say when someone says Sid is ahead of Yzerman already and then when Sid under performs, that same person will cite an off year for Stevie to defend Sid. Then I'm like but you said Sid was above Stevie anyway so shouldn't you hold Sid to a higher level?

Then when people start mentioning Sid in the same breath as Gretzky...well, that's just a joke, I'm sorry.


Last edited by Rhiessan71: 06-09-2014 at 12:27 PM.
Rhiessan71 is offline  
Old
06-09-2014, 12:20 PM
  #85
TAnnala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Country: Finland
Posts: 16,944
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Well...lets see.
07/08 Sid misses 29 games and the Pens finish tied for 4th overall and 2nd in the conference
10/11 Sid misses 41 games AND Malkin misses 39 games, Pens finish tied for 3rd overall and 2nd in their Conference
11/12 Sid misses 60 games, Pens finish 4th overall and 2nd in Conference
12/13 Sid missed 12 of 48 games and Malkin missed 17 of 48, Pens finish 2nd overall and first in their Conference

The bolded for 10/11 really tells a story of how strong the Pens are on their own without Sid/Malkin for big chunks.

I think the answer to your question is a little obvious, no?
I never take part in the "Crosby has no support" discussion, cause frankly it is too tiresome to have back and forth debate over certain people.

But you are spot on there. I have no idea where the "Crosby and Malkin are only good players in the Pens" idea comes from. Pens have been one of the strongest teams for few years now. Obviously both Crosby and Malkin make the Pens better, but they do not make or break 'em. Some people make it sound like the Pens are a bunch of AHL scrubs and 87/71.

TAnnala is offline  
Old
06-09-2014, 12:26 PM
  #86
struckbyaparkedcar
Zemgus Da Gawd
 
struckbyaparkedcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Upstate NY
Country: Cote DIvoire
Posts: 11,690
vCash: 500
The one alarming point about Crosby's playoff defeats for me is the variety of personnel and styles that have been able to achieve shutting him down enough to win series. Plekanec slowed Sid down just enough that the Pens collapsed around him, Giroux punched him in the mouth and scored a jillion goals head-to-head, Krejci punched him in the mouth, scored a jillion goals head-to-head, and let Chara/Rask hold him without a point. And then two games with points in a 7 game Rangers series staring down Stepan.

struckbyaparkedcar is offline  
Old
06-09-2014, 01:18 PM
  #87
Fugu
Administrator
HFBoards
 
Fugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: ϶(o)ϵ
Posts: 32,978
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
For me, what stood out about Fedorov in the playoffs is that during the Wings' great run between the lockouts, he was the only one of their stars to never have a bad playoff. Yzerman and Lidstrom had a few down years (as does almost every player), but Fedorov seemed to always be good. Never a year when I thought "if Fedorov played better, they could have won."

Regular season? Yeah... nothing special outside of 93-94 and 95-96. Brings me to another point - Fedorov had the luxury of playing on a team so stacked that after 95-96, he basically coasted through the regular season, saving himself for the playoffs. Maybe that needs to be taken into account when comparing his playoffs with Crosby. If Crosby coasted through the regular season like Feds, do the Penguins make the playoffs?

Honestly? I think Fedorov is one of the most misunderstood elite players of all time. Starting with his 'junior' and pre-NHL days, he was considered the playmaker of the Bure-Feds-Mogilny line. True to the Soviet style, he was two-way, defensively oriented/playmaking center, while Bure and Mogilny were considered the snipers. Even his blazing speed was underappreciated because Bure was known for his, aka the Russian Rocket. Yet, head to head at an All-Star competition, the Finnish Flash just edged Fedorov out by a second.

Fedorov didn't see his role as being the top scorer, but this is definitely something we see for centers in the North American model-- Gretzky, Yzerman, Lemieux, Crosby. Fedorov would sacrifice personal scoring opportunities to avoid poor defensive postures by the team. The center would fall back with both defenders. That was ingrained in him (just as Datsyuk plays in the same manner... watch him play and watch how he falls back before even some of the defenders, or ~especially~ if a defenseman is pinching).

In fact, Bowman's initial friction with Yzerman when he Scotty took over was his insistence that Yzerman adopt that same defensive posture and not worry about being the top scorer. Bowman focused on disseminating the offense and attack, not leaving it in the hands of one or two elite guys.

Now why Fedorov was able to take it to another level in the playoffs is truly intriguing. The team didn't suffer defensively at all when Feds turned it on. I think he was just so incredibly talented, blessed with superb skating (speed, agility), shooting, puckhandling, IQ and endurance (good size), that focus alone could get him there perhaps. (Well, and some of his off-ice issues may have hampered his ability to maintain that level of focus throughout the regular season. He was a bit of a party animal..... no more comments on that.)

I don't think he was coasting. I just think he was able to spur himself on better during the playoffs. He didn't have any bad years during his prime, and he always had outstanding playoff runs. When people witnessed that level of skill and ability in a player, and then could see what he'd do in the playoffs, the natural question is to assume that it was something he could do year-round, hence a lot of the negativity around him. Maybe it was more complicated than a lack of interest or desire, or as mentioned above, that he saw his role differently to what NA expectations were for centers.

Fugu is offline  
Old
06-09-2014, 01:22 PM
  #88
Boxscore
#oldNHL
 
Boxscore's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: 1974-94
Posts: 6,301
vCash: 500
I would pick any of Sakic, Forsberg and Fedorov over Crosby in the playoffs any day of the week and twice on Sunday. And, Claude was very clutch but I would take Sid over him.

Boxscore is offline  
Old
06-09-2014, 01:23 PM
  #89
Sentinel
Registered User
 
Sentinel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 3,984
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Yes, I'm sure about that. The answer is NO
What if the question is: "Top 40 Playoffs Performers"? Still no?

Sentinel is offline  
Old
06-09-2014, 01:47 PM
  #90
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,601
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Yes, I'm sure about that. The answer is NO
Hey I was being charitable, I can't see the case for it but Carbs was brought up in the top 60 centers project (for somewhat similar reasons) so you never know really.

Hardyvan123 is offline  
Old
06-09-2014, 02:02 PM
  #91
TAnnala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Country: Finland
Posts: 16,944
vCash: 50
This is going to be pretty hard question, but just humor me.

The one's who witnessed Fedorov's prime in person, how would you describe his talent? Did he have some superb abilities, or was he just merely good at everything he did? What was the thing that made Fedorov so great? (I am not doubting his greatness, it's just that a lot of my opinion is based on reading about Feds and watching some old, grainy youtube clips.)

TAnnala is offline  
Old
06-09-2014, 02:03 PM
  #92
daver
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Country: Norfolk Island
Posts: 5,175
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
The bottomline is that the currency Crosby banked in those 2 big years has slowly been drained away in every playoff since until now where we are at a bit of a crossroads for Crosby where depending on his performance next year, he could start entering the "Choker" level.
Just so we are clear on what the standard is for "choker" or "failure, is Malkin also entering the choker the level? His PPG is lower than Crosby's over their last 4 playoff runs, and was more of a reason they lost to MTL in 2010.

What about Teows, Kane and Kopitar? Did they choke in the years where their PPG was lower than their average and their teams didn't make it to the finals?

daver is offline  
Old
06-09-2014, 02:04 PM
  #93
daver
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Country: Norfolk Island
Posts: 5,175
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxscore View Post
I would pick any of Sakic, Forsberg and Fedorov over Crosby in the playoffs any day of the week and twice on Sunday. And, Claude was very clutch but I would take Sid over him.
Is this is based on their careers up to age 26?

daver is offline  
Old
06-09-2014, 02:04 PM
  #94
TAnnala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Country: Finland
Posts: 16,944
vCash: 50
If nothing more, just a list with attributes rated 1-10 basis:

Shot:
-Wrist
-Slap
-Backhand
Skating:
-Backwards
-Speed
etc. etc.

TAnnala is offline  
Old
06-09-2014, 02:08 PM
  #95
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,601
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
What if the question is: "Top 40 Playoffs Performers"? Still no?
maybe for forwards only but not if we include Dmen and goalies.

Even for forwards, it's hard to compare, especially with previous eras with much smaller game samples and less information.

Even post expansion 68-today in the playoffs Claude even with counting stats is only

22nd in points
8th in goals but
4th in GP, 2nd among all forwards.


another way to put the question is he even a top 40 playoff performer, for all forwards post 68 expansion?

Maybe.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

Still it further suggests how ridiculous it is to have Claude in this conversation with Sid Crosby and Feds.

Hardyvan123 is offline  
Old
06-09-2014, 02:27 PM
  #96
Sentinel
Registered User
 
Sentinel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 3,984
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by daver View Post
Just so we are clear on what the standard is for "choker" or "failure, is Malkin also entering the choker the level? His PPG is lower than Crosby's over their last 4 playoff runs, and was more of a reason they lost to MTL in 2010.

What about Teows, Kane and Kopitar? Did they choke in the years where their PPG was lower than their average and their teams didn't make it to the finals?
For the past few years, the WCF was essentially the Cup final. The only elite team in the East is Boston. So whenever Hawks and Kings lost to each other, I don't think it's accurate to denounce them as "not reaching the finals."

Crosby trounced on the opposition in the first two rounds and then evaporated. Malkin was more important against bigger opponents. But I wouldn't put Malkin on Fedorov's level either. The guy was just stellar in playoffs, year after year after year.

TA: one thing that made Fedorov such a pleasure to watch was how smooth he was. Simply the best skater ever. Won the hardest shot competition. Great offensive and defensive instincts, superb passing skills. The problem was that everything looked so smooth and easy with him, it seemed sometimes that he wasn't even trying.

On top, he wasn't just preying on weaker opposition in the entry rounds. His goals actually won games. Series-winning goal against Colorado in 97 (with broken ribs). A crucial second goal against Colorado in Game 7 in 02. Vital goals against Philadelphia in 97 and Dallas in 98. Paired with defensive play from hell. Year after year. His two-way play centering injured Yzerman and injured Shanahan in 02 was the best I ever saw.

Crosby grazes.

Sentinel is offline  
Old
06-09-2014, 02:45 PM
  #97
daver
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Country: Norfolk Island
Posts: 5,175
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by daver View Post
Just so we are clear on what the standard is for "choker" or "failure, is Malkin also entering the choker the level? His PPG is lower than Crosby's over their last 4 playoff runs, and was more of a reason they lost to MTL in 2010.

What about Teows, Kane and Kopitar? Did they choke in the years where their PPG was lower than their average and their teams didn't make it to the finals?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
For the past few years, the WCF was essentially the Cup final. The only elite team in the East is Boston. So whenever Hawks and Kings lost to each other, I don't think it's accurate to denounce them as "not reaching the finals."

Crosby trounced on the opposition in the first two rounds and then evaporated. Malkin was more important against bigger opponents. But I wouldn't put Malkin on Fedorov's level either. The guy was just stellar in playoffs, year after year after year.
You haven't answer the either question.

Is Malkin just as much or more of a playoff failure than Crosby over their past four playoffs?

And why aren't Kopitar, Kane and Teows also chokers when they have underperformed (regardless how far their teams got)?

daver is offline  
Old
06-09-2014, 03:02 PM
  #98
Rhiessan71
Just a Fool
 
Rhiessan71's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Guelph, Ont
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,826
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by daver View Post
You haven't answer the either question.

Is Malkin just as much or more of a playoff failure than Crosby over their past four playoffs?

And why aren't Kopitar, Kane and Teows also chokers when they have underperformed (regardless how far their teams got)?
There's no question to answer. You're trying to gloss over Crosby's 4th straight sub-par PO (5th if you include the '09 finals) performance by attacking Toews and Kopitar who have NOT had any consecutive PO flops let alone 4 in a row.

Rhiessan71 is offline  
Old
06-09-2014, 03:18 PM
  #99
Fugu
Administrator
HFBoards
 
Fugu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: ϶(o)ϵ
Posts: 32,978
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
This is going to be pretty hard question, but just humor me.

The one's who witnessed Fedorov's prime in person, how would you describe his talent? Did he have some superb abilities, or was he just merely good at everything he did? What was the thing that made Fedorov so great? (I am not doubting his greatness, it's just that a lot of my opinion is based on reading about Feds and watching some old, grainy youtube clips.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
If nothing more, just a list with attributes rated 1-10 basis:

Shot:
-Wrist
-Slap
-Backhand
Skating:
-Backwards
-Speed
etc. etc.
I personally think he's one of the most talented players I've ever seen, and I've been watching hockey since about 1970.

He had it all. Skating was probably the most 'graceful' I've ever seen. I can't think of any other player that had the glide, agility, speed, balance. It looked effortless, but it was unique in that you could immediately pick him out on the ice by his stance/position. Very, very smooth. Since he sometimes played the defender position, his backward skating for a forward was obviously unparalleled. He wasn't just getting by when playing defense, but really could fulfill the job on D.

He won the Skills fastest skater in 1994 and 1996 (13.5sec), with only Mike Gartner ahead of him. This YT is 2002, so Feds is still one of the fastest-- at 33 yrs of age. Kapanen wins this one. YT shows the record:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83XzYMmv9Xw

Bure vs Feds (start at 40 sec):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En6xGkgm69w

1996:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIc4lJm2RoQ

1994:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1bBPIksO1Q

He could dangle and deke. I think he preferred to set up plays, and maybe because he was so talented, would get cute at times. Passing, puckhandling were top notch. You couldn't take the puck off of him either.

He had the vision of elite players, so he could anticipate and see how the play would evolve, and I think this ability aided his two-way play as well (or let it develop since he was trained to be responsible over the entire sheet of ice).

He could score from anywhere on the ice, wrister, backhand, poke, whatever. However since he had one of the hardest slapshots in the league, and since he was very good defensively, he often was used on the point during the PP. Hasek once said Feds had the toughest slapshots he had to face--- it was "low and heavy". Mentioned above, one of the fastest, here's one at 101.5 mph:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNC1kPYIj-M


So you combine the superb skating, along with pretty much elite skill level for all other measures, a very smart player, and the two-way play? I think he's probably the most complete player to ever grace the NHL. I honestly miss watching him on the ice more than anyone else I've enjoyed over the decades.

Fugu is offline  
Old
06-09-2014, 03:23 PM
  #100
Sentinel
Registered User
 
Sentinel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 3,984
vCash: 500
I agree. I miss him like no other.

Sentinel is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:26 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.