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Crosby vs. Claude Lemieux... or Fedorov

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Old
06-09-2014, 03:25 PM
  #101
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You guys were right. He looks pretty hypnotic at his skates. Just comparing him to Kapanen in that first video and the difference is ridiculous. Good looking guy too.

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06-09-2014, 03:36 PM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
There's no question to answer. You're trying to gloss over Crosby's 4th straight sub-par PO (5th if you include the '09 finals) performance by attacking Toews and Kopitar who have NOT had any consecutive PO flops let alone 4 in a row.
Just trying to give you and the other poster the opportunity to present the standard to declare that someone failed or choked so it can be applied equally to other players. Sounds fair doesn't it?

So what's the standard?

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06-09-2014, 03:42 PM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Boxscore View Post
I would pick any of Sakic, Forsberg and Fedorov over Crosby in the playoffs any day of the week and twice on Sunday. And, Claude was very clutch but I would take Sid over him.
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
Is this is based on their careers up to age 26?
Well Forsberg up until 26 has 6 very good to excellent NHL playoffs.

Sakic has 3 playoffs including his Conn Smythe year and 2 above average to pretty good first round knockout ones.

feds also has 6 very good to excellent playoffs by 26, including his first 2 20 point ones (out of the 4 straight).

up to the age of 26 I would rank them like this for the playoffs,

Forsberg
Fedorov/Crosby

Sakic (even with his Conn Smythe, he only has 2 other years that are just okay).

All that being said, it's extremely difficult to compare playoffs between players with different circumstances (almost always team driven) and the 3 guys mentioned (Feds, Sakic, Foppa) are without doubt 10 of the top playoff performers since expansion in the NHL.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

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06-09-2014, 03:44 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
For the past few years, the WCF was essentially the Cup final. The only elite team in the East is Boston. So whenever Hawks and Kings lost to each other, I don't think it's accurate to denounce them as "not reaching the finals."
Tell me how this isn't a double standard:

Last year, Kopitar has 2 points in the WCF, team loses 4-1, 9 points in 18 games

Last year, Crosby has 0 points in the ECF (team only has 2 goals), team loses 4-0, 15 points in 14 games.

Crosby is over 100% more productive but he choked while Kopitar didn't.

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06-09-2014, 03:48 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Well Forsberg up until 26 has 6 very good to excellent NHL playoffs.

Sakic has 3 playoffs including his Conn Smythe year and 2 above average to pretty good first round knockout ones.

feds also has 6 very good to excellent playoffs by 26, including his first 2 20 point ones (out of the 4 straight).

up to the age of 26 I would rank them like this for the playoffs,

Forsberg
Fedorov/Crosby


Sakic (even with his Conn Smythe, he only has 2 other years that are just okay).

All that being said, it's extremely difficult to compare playoffs between players with different circumstances (almost always team driven) and the 3 guys mentioned (Feds, Sakic, Foppa) are without doubt 10 of the top playoff performers since expansion in the NHL.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points
You could make a case for any player to be the best. Not remotely close to the slam dunk the other poster implied.

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06-09-2014, 03:56 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
Just trying to give you and the other poster the opportunity to present the standard to declare that someone failed or choked so it can be applied equally to other players. Sounds fair doesn't it?

So what's the standard?
Why bother? It doesn't matter what standard we try and present, you are just going to move the goal posts in whatever direction supports your Crosby coloured glasses opinion.

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06-09-2014, 03:59 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
Tell me how this isn't a double standard:

Last year, Kopitar has 2 points in the WCF, team loses 4-1, 9 points in 18 games

Last year, Crosby has 0 points in the ECF (team only has 2 goals), team loses 4-0, 15 points in 14 games.

Crosby is over 100% more productive but he choked while Kopitar didn't.
Has Kopitar now ended 5 consecutive PO runs with a whimper?

No double standard, sorry.

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06-09-2014, 04:06 PM
  #108
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I personally think he's one of the most talented players I've ever seen, and I've been watching hockey since about 1970.

He had it all. Skating was probably the most 'graceful' I've ever seen. I can't think of any other player that had the glide, agility, speed, balance. It looked effortless, but it was unique in that you could immediately pick him out on the ice by his stance/position. Very, very smooth. Since he sometimes played the defender position, his backward skating for a forward was obviously unparalleled. He wasn't just getting by when playing defense, but really could fulfill the job on D.

He won the Skills fastest skater in 1994 and 1996 (13.5sec), with only Mike Gartner ahead of him. This YT is 2002, so Feds is still one of the fastest-- at 33 yrs of age. Kapanen wins this one. YT shows the record:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83XzYMmv9Xw

Bure vs Feds (start at 40 sec):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En6xGkgm69w

1996:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIc4lJm2RoQ

1994:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1bBPIksO1Q

He could dangle and deke. I think he preferred to set up plays, and maybe because he was so talented, would get cute at times. Passing, puckhandling were top notch. You couldn't take the puck off of him either.

He had the vision of elite players, so he could anticipate and see how the play would evolve, and I think this ability aided his two-way play as well (or let it develop since he was trained to be responsible over the entire sheet of ice).

He could score from anywhere on the ice, wrister, backhand, poke, whatever. However since he had one of the hardest slapshots in the league, and since he was very good defensively, he often was used on the point during the PP. Hasek once said Feds had the toughest slapshots he had to face--- it was "low and heavy". Mentioned above, one of the fastest, here's one at 101.5 mph:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNC1kPYIj-M


So you combine the superb skating, along with pretty much elite skill level for all other measures, a very smart player, and the two-way play? I think he's probably the most complete player to ever grace the NHL. I honestly miss watching him on the ice more than anyone else I've enjoyed over the decades.
This is a great response. I started watching hockey in the mid-70s myself and I agree that Fedorov is/was one of the most talented players I've ever seen. He really did it all and he looked beautiful doing it.

The thing I loved most about players like Fedorov (and the other greats during that era) is they seem to be blessed with extreme creativity that 99% of the players today lack due to over-coaching and extra emphasis towards systems and protocol. Even the greatest players today (except for a few like Datsyuk, Kane, etc.) are very North-South, robotic players who aren't nearly as creative, fluid or fun to watch.

Fedorov was intriguing because he entered the NHL when Russian players were accepted but there was still a mystique and/or sometimes bias against them. If Fedorov was Canadian or American he would go down as one of the greatest of all-time IMO. Look at the way good ol' Canadian boys like Gilmour and Neely were revered. Fedorov would have been placed well ahead of them, from a publicity and likability standpoint, if he was North American.

Man that guy had it all.

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06-09-2014, 04:15 PM
  #109
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Put old Kunitz and Gibbons on Federov's wing and see how well he does...

The years Crosby played well in the playoffs he had Malone,Hossa and a young Kunitz with Bill Guerin.

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06-09-2014, 04:15 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Why bother? It doesn't matter what standard we try and present, you are just going to move the goal posts in whatever direction supports your Crosby coloured glasses opinion.
I'll take this as you not backing up your claim as usual.

You know, you are so desperate to downgrade Crosby, and there is a chance that he may never get back to his pre-concussion playoff form, which for fans of hockey would be a shame. You meanwhile will be nothing short of ecstatic is that happens.
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Last edited by Fugu: 06-09-2014 at 06:42 PM. Reason: let's not make it personal
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06-09-2014, 04:16 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
There's no question to answer. You're trying to gloss over Crosby's 4th straight sub-par PO (5th if you include the '09 finals) performance by attacking Toews and Kopitar who have NOT had any consecutive PO flops let alone 4 in a row.
The suggestion that Sid has been a flop in his last 4 playoffs is simply absurd.

His playoff line is 46-17-34-51 good for 12th overall in counting stats.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

His PPG is 2nd overall to 1.11 (46 games) just under 1.12( in 26 games) Cammelleri.

In addition Sid is being used in all situations and is driving play more than Malkin is (advanced stats support the eye test here).

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06-09-2014, 04:17 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Boxscore View Post
This is a great response. I started watching hockey in the mid-70s myself and I agree that Fedorov is/was one of the most talented players I've ever seen. He really did it all and he looked beautiful doing it.

The thing I loved most about players like Fedorov (and the other greats during that era) is they seem to be blessed with extreme creativity that 99% of the players today lack due to over-coaching and extra emphasis towards systems and protocol. Even the greatest players today (except for a few like Datsyuk, Kane, etc.) are very North-South, robotic players who aren't nearly as creative, fluid or fun to watch.

Fedorov was intriguing because he entered the NHL when Russian players were accepted but there was still a mystique and/or sometimes bias against them. If Fedorov was Canadian or American he would go down as one of the greatest of all-time IMO. Look at the way good ol' Canadian boys like Gilmour and Neely were revered. Fedorov would have been placed well ahead of them, from a publicity and likability standpoint, if he was North American.

Man that guy had it all.
Thanks, Boxscore, and yes, I agree. It's definitely the era of [over]coaching-- trying to get the creativity and thinking out of the players' hands.

If I can find it, I'll post Fedorov discussing the bias he perceived against Russians by North Americans. I know he felt loved in Detroit, for the most part, and maintained a home there for several years after he left the Wings. I think it was his financial problems (trusted adviser robbed him blind) that led to him selling off the Michigan property.

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06-09-2014, 04:24 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by daver View Post
You could make a case for any player to be the best. Not remotely close to the slam dunk the other poster implied.
Yes the OP and the thread has it's problems but given Foppas total impact on the ice and his 200 foot game and Feds defensive prowess it's easy to make a very strong argument that they were better playoff performers overall up to each players age 26 season.

Sure Sid is close and in the mix but if push comes to shove and all factors are considered it's hard not to put the 4 guys

foppa
feds
Crosby
Sakic

in this metric.

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06-09-2014, 04:34 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Has Kopitar now ended 5 consecutive PO runs with a whimper?

No double standard, sorry.
Well the first of five consecutive playoff series you listed for Crosby hardly ended in a whimper considering he lifted the Stanley Cup as captain of his team.

As for the OP, Sergei Fedorov was a great player who enjoyed success across his NHL career. Nonetheless, I think the version of Sergei Fedorov being used is an unfair comparison because his playoff career can be evaluated as a finished product. Up to the age of 26 he was grouped (fairly or not) into the collective group of chokers known as the mid-90's Red Wings. By the end of the 1995-96 season Fedorov was behind current Crosby in playoff points and points per game and had been part of numerous playoff failures (a.k.a. ending PO runs with a whimper).

Now we know that post-1996 Fedorov did win the Cup numerous times because 1) he was a star player that was a key component of Stanley Cup teams (however, he was never the best Wings players), and 2) he had the good fortune to play on one of the few big spending teams in the pre-cap era, which limited the contenders for the Cup to a half dozen teams each season. I guess we'll see where Crosby ends up when all is said and done, but when viewed as a whole he has a very successful playoff career for a star player at the age of 26.

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06-09-2014, 04:39 PM
  #115
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Fedorov had Doug Brown as his linemate for most of th 90s, so don't give me this "Crosby has bad linemates" crap.

Crosby was an absolute flop. Have you even watched the Pens' "terminal" series? Canadiens, Flyers, Bruins, and even ******* Rangers had little problems getting him off his game and shutting him down. He surely picked up his points against Islanders and Blue Jackets.

When compared him to all time greats, I would rank him dead last:

Fedorov
Sakic
Forsberg

Crosby

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06-09-2014, 04:40 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by Frank the Tank View Post
Well the first of five consecutive playoff series you listed for Crosby hardly ended in a whimper considering he lifted the Stanley Cup as captain of his team.

As for the OP, Sergei Fedorov was a great player who enjoyed success across his NHL career. Nonetheless, I think the version of Sergei Fedorov being used is an unfair comparison because his playoff career can be evaluated as a finished product. Up to the age of 26 he was grouped (fairly or not) into the collective group of chokers known as the mid-90's Red Wings. By the end of the 1995-96 season Fedorov was behind current Crosby in playoff points and points per game and had been part of numerous playoff failures (a.k.a. ending PO runs with a whimper).

Now we know that post-1996 Fedorov did win the Cup numerous times because 1) he was a star player that was a key component of Stanley Cup teams (however, he was never the best Wings players), and 2) he had the good fortune to play on one of the few big spending teams in the pre-cap era, which limited the contenders for the Cup to a half dozen teams each season. I guess we'll see where Crosby ends up when all is said and done, but when viewed as a whole he has a very successful playoff career for a star player at the age of 26.

Frank, I think Feds was considered the Wings best performer in 97 and 98, although that was a truly incredible group.

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06-09-2014, 04:44 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Frank the Tank View Post
Sergei Fedorov being used is an unfair comparison because his playoff career can be evaluated as a finished product. Up to the age of 26 he was grouped (fairly or not) into the collective group of chokers known as the mid-90's Red Wings. By the end of the 1995-96 season Fedorov was behind current Crosby in playoff points and points per game and had been part of numerous playoff failures (a.k.a. ending PO runs with a whimper).

Now we know that post-1996 Fedorov did win the Cup numerous times because 1) he was a star player that was a key component of Stanley Cup teams (however, he was never the best Wings players).
You may want to read the rest of the thread. At no point were Wings' losses Fedorov's fault, 26 y.o (why are we using this age as a cutoff? Feds entered NHL at 20, Crosby at 18) or not. The same cannot be said of Crosby. No siree.

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06-09-2014, 04:56 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Fedorov had Doug Brown as his linemate for most of th 90s, so don't give me this "Crosby has bad linemates" crap.

Crosby was an absolute flop. Have you even watched the Pens' "terminal" series? Canadiens, Flyers, Bruins, and even ******* Rangers had little problems getting him off his game and shutting him down. He surely picked up his points against Islanders and Blue Jackets.

When compared him to all time greats, I would rank him dead last:

Fedorov
Sakic
Forsberg

Crosby
Why go with the hyperbole? Crosby did not play his best the past few playoffs, and yet was far from a "flop." A 26 year old Fedorov had faced his fair share of soft opponents in the early rounds and lost to a few of them as well (Toronto and San Jose). He was terminated with ease in the 1995 finals by the underdog Devils. Cherry-picking series does not prove one's point.

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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
You may want to read the rest of the thread. At no point were Wings' losses Fedorov's fault, 26 y.o (why are we using this age as a cutoff? Feds entered NHL at 20, Crosby at 18) or not. The same cannot be said of Crosby. No siree.
I never knew that single players were assigned as being at fault for a team losing in the playoffs. 26 years is being used as a cutoff because it is easier to draw the highlights from a 20 season career vs. a 8 season career. If you want to limit it to Crosby's first 6 seasons, then that favors him even more over Fedorov.

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06-09-2014, 05:06 PM
  #119
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Frank, I think Feds was considered the Wings best performer in 97 and 98, although that was a truly incredible group.
Perhaps Fedorov was the best performer (I watched the Wings play a lot in the 90's), but, as been mentioned ad naseum in other Crosby vs. ________ threads, Fedorov (like Crosby) has no Conn Smythe to prove it. I enjoyed watching Fedorov play and think he is an all-time great player, but I think he also had an advantage in that he was relied upon less to carry his team than Crosby is during the regular season and playoffs. Crosby has Malkin, but Fedorov had numerous Hall of Fame players on the Red Wings to share the load over the long season.

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06-09-2014, 05:06 PM
  #120
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You may want to read the rest of the thread. At no point were Wings' losses Fedorov's fault, 26 y.o (why are we using this age as a cutoff? Feds entered NHL at 20, Crosby at 18) or not. The same cannot be said of Crosby. No siree.
Since you clearly need to assign team losses to individual players, I am still waiting to hear how Malkin isn't equally or more at fault than Crosby in 2010, 2012 and 2013?

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06-09-2014, 05:12 PM
  #121
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Crosby and Crosby.

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06-09-2014, 05:23 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Yes the OP and the thread has it's problems but given Foppas total impact on the ice and his 200 foot game and Feds defensive prowess it's easy to make a very strong argument that they were better playoff performers overall up to each players age 26 season.

Sure Sid is close and in the mix but if push comes to shove and all factors are considered it's hard not to put the 4 guys

foppa
feds
Crosby
Sakic

in this metric.
Crosby has the better offensive #'s so I guess it depends on how much you value other variables. IMO, Crosby at his best, which we haven't seen since 2010, was putting up much better #'s while playing a solid two-way game. At some point offensive superiority is more effective than 2 way play. But as I said, it's close.

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06-09-2014, 05:32 PM
  #123
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Crosby has the better offensive #'s so I guess it depends on how much you value other variables. IMO, Crosby at his best, which we haven't seen since 2010, was putting up much better #'s while playing a solid two-way game. At some point offensive superiority is more effective than 2 way play. But as I said, it's close.
Yes Sid has slightly better offensive numbers (all players being discussed up to and including the age 26) but you really need to look up Foppa before posting.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...rder_by=points

He is a solid 3rd over that time period in points (Feds is #1 BTW) and is in the battle of being in the top 2 (top 3 at worst) in that time period in the playoffs when overall play is taken into account.

Sid is in the same mix with Dats and Zetts BTW.

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06-09-2014, 05:34 PM
  #124
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So you combine the superb skating, along with pretty much elite skill level for all other measures, a very smart player, and the two-way play? I think he's probably the most complete player to ever grace the NHL.
Call me crazy, but I think that makes him the Scott Niedermayer of forwards - not that other thing you said.

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06-09-2014, 06:26 PM
  #125
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Call me crazy, but I think that makes him the Scott Niedermayer of forwards - not that other thing you said.
I think Fugu is closer than you are here with the comp, but then again I'm not that hard on Nieds, like some are here, he has a very good resume.

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