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Andrew Ference Marches in Pride Parade (Edmonton)

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Old
06-08-2014, 08:30 PM
  #76
Ilkka Sinisalo
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Originally Posted by Concordski View Post
They're very annoying, but harmless.
They should at least get better music.

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06-08-2014, 09:28 PM
  #77
Vankiller Whale
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
You paint such a hopeless, discouraging picture.
To me the most discouraging part is that religious people(of any religion) tend to have a much higher birth rate than those that are secular, due in no small part to being "fruitful and multiplying" not to mention bans on contraception. I think that public education should be mandatory, along with a course on philosophy/religion, which doesn't necessarily promote secularism or any one religion, but at least exposes children who would have been isolated from exposure to any system of beliefs other than the one shared by their community where they are either schooled at home or in a religious school that is similarly close-minded(and not all religious schools are).

As much as I would like to simply "live and let live" in regards to people's beliefs, the demographics makes that a very precarious method long-term, not to mention it's unfair to anyone who is literally surrounded by people all sharing the same belief where any deviation from the central dogma is seen as a stigma, when they have the right to make their own, informed decision about how they'd like to live their life.

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Originally Posted by 5RingsAndABeer View Post
Good post. I personally do think people can change by being challenged on their beliefs, but it usually has to occur pretty early on in their development. I believe that because I was one of the people I am now arguing against - I used many of the same arguments in this thread back in high school. Nobody really called me out on it and I wish they had. I cringe every time I think about it. I just grew up in a bubble and hadn't been exposed to the real world. Years of religious dogma being reinforced by people in a position of power does make people very unreceptive to change, but I do think it's possible.

Most religious people are intelligent, genuinely nice people. The ones that are willfully ignorant are obviously not going to change their minds, but it's worth having a discussion with the rest.
Of course people can change. And a lot depends on the personality of the person in question. All I was saying is that there are ways to try and persuade someone to be open minded that don't involve ridicule. And that most of the time, the ridicule is undeserved as there is a pretty decent chance that if one had grown up in a similar environment as that person that you'd have similar views.

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Old
06-08-2014, 09:37 PM
  #78
5RingsAndABeer
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^ I don't have anything to add but that was one of the best posts I've read on HF.

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06-08-2014, 09:42 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Beerz View Post
Well I also don't believe Polygamy or Incest or under-aged marriage should be allowed either and I'd venture to guess a majority of people feel the same way. Yet we don't hear about that infringing on anyones equal rights.

Should homosexuals be allowed to live and share their life together without being discriminated against or jailed or stoned? Yes. It's their lives..they should be able to live it how they see fit. Do I agree with it or see it as normal? No. I do not.
Polygamy, as pointed out by Chief Justice Waite way back in the 19th century, has been against English common law since the 16th century. United States law is drawn from English common law. Not only is it traditionally illegal (which does matter), but polygamy can lead to issues for society in general (noted in that Court decision was the perpetuation of the patriarchal system in communities in which bigamy is commonly practiced).

Incest can bring about issues for children borne out of the relationships. This has been well-documented. Yes, if incestuous couples did not have children it would solve that issue, but it's easier to just outlaw incest than it is to regulate whether or not couples are reproducing.

Under-age sex/marriage has to do with consent and impressionability. Children have to be protected from adults in these types of situations because they can be more easily influenced by adults.

Gay marriage has none of these hang ups. No one can say that one consenting homosexual adult marrying another consenting homosexual adult will bring with it any of the negatives of polygamy or under-age marriage. No one can say that two homosexuals marrying one another will produce the same kinds of genetic disorders that inbreeding causes. The only arguments I ever see are based in religion (which doesn't fly with me) or, similar to the above, "it's not normal" or "it's unnatural."

I wonder what was so natural about "traditional marriage" back before it was the "normal" thing to do.

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06-08-2014, 09:49 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by 5RingsAndABeer View Post
^ I don't have anything to add but that was one of the best posts I've read on HF.
Yep, it was a pretty darn good analysis.

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06-08-2014, 10:54 PM
  #81
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In MY day, marriage was pure. It was about increasing land holdings and building alliances.

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06-08-2014, 11:00 PM
  #82
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In MY day, marriage was pure. It was about increasing land holdings and building alliances.
'Twas a righteous age, my liege.

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Old
06-08-2014, 11:01 PM
  #83
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God makes gay people, then forbids people to be gay. Who would want to worship such a psycho? If that god came to me and said he was real and proved it, I would reject his religion just to spite him.
Your lack of humility is an inspiration to future generations. Stay classy Missouri.

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06-08-2014, 11:07 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
To me the most discouraging part is that religious people(of any religion) tend to have a much higher birth rate than those that are secular, due in no small part to being "fruitful and multiplying" not to mention bans on contraception. I think that public education should be mandatory, along with a course on philosophy/religion, which doesn't necessarily promote secularism or any one religion, but at least exposes children who would have been isolated from exposure to any system of beliefs other than the one shared by their community where they are either schooled at home or in a religious school that is similarly close-minded(and not all religious schools are).
I'm pretty sure most public and private schools have 'world religion' classes and what not. In this day and age, it'd be a monumental task to completely isolate someone to the point where they are unaware of other belief systems, ideologies, philosophy, etc. Sounds to me like you're just paranoid for no reason.

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Old
06-08-2014, 11:15 PM
  #85
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We're beyond jumping the shark here... Christ on a bike, we need to get AP in here to talk some sense into this guy.

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Old
06-08-2014, 11:31 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by TheThrill81 View Post
I'm pretty sure most public and private schools have 'world religion' classes and what not. In this day and age, it'd be a monumental task to completely isolate someone to the point where they are unaware of other belief systems, ideologies, philosophy, etc. Sounds to me like you're just paranoid for no reason.
Having myself been in such a situation, it's more common than you'd think. Most public and private schools are quite open minded and tolerant. But parents are not required to send their children there, and there absolutely exists communities and "education" systems where any system of beliefs outside their own is mocked and demonized, even within countries like Canada and the US.

I hope I don't come across as paranoid. I'm not claiming that there's some imminent threat to secular life as we know it or anything. Merely that measures should be taken to ensure that everyone has access to the "world religion" classes or whatnot that you take for granted. Despite having lived in Canada my whole life, I certainly never took a course like that, and I know many people who would have benefited from being in a more tolerant, open-minded educational system.

I can't speak towards fundamentalist Christians in the US, but I imagine that there is probably a similar culture ingrained in some where people do their utmost to prevent their children from being "corrupted" by secular media, and are willing to either find schools that teach their beliefs and their beliefs alone or simply homeschool their kids to achieve that. Similarly among ultra-orthodox Judaism, Islam, or any other religion.

Anyways, I think I've taken this thread far enough OT. My original point was simply that you shouldn't simply ridicule someone who believes in Creationism or a divine set of moral values, as even if they weren't isolated or indoctrinated to the extent listed above, simply growing up in a home being surrounded by people who share the same values is more than enough to ingrain it inside someone to the point where it's not simply a matter of "telling them they're wrong."

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Old
06-08-2014, 11:45 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by Vankiller Whale View Post
Having myself been in such a situation, it's more common than you'd think. Most public and private schools are quite open minded and tolerant. But parents are not required to send their children there, and there absolutely exists communities and "education" systems where any system of beliefs outside their own is mocked and demonized, even within countries like Canada and the US.
I don't doubt such communities exist like Mormon, Amish, etc. Not to mention that despicable Phelps Family, whom I'm not associating with the former two in any way. I'm just saying you might be making a mountain out of a molehill.

Quote:
I hope I don't come across as paranoid. I'm not claiming that there's some imminent threat to secular life as we know it or anything. Merely that measures should be taken to ensure that everyone has access to the "world religion" classes or whatnot that you take for granted. Despite having lived in Canada my whole life, I certainly never took a course like that, and I know many people who would have benefited from being in a more tolerant, open-minded educational system.

I can't speak towards fundamentalist Christians in the US, but I imagine that there is probably a similar culture ingrained in some where people do their utmost to prevent their children from being "corrupted" by secular media, and are willing to either find schools that teach their beliefs and their beliefs alone or simply homeschool their kids to achieve that. Similarly among ultra-orthodox Judaism, Islam, or any other religion.

Anyways, I think I've taken this thread far enough OT. My original point was simply that you shouldn't simply ridicule someone who believes in Creationism or a divine set of moral values, as even if they weren't isolated or indoctrinated to the extent listed above, simply growing up in a home being surrounded by people who share the same values is more than enough to ingrain it inside someone to the point where it's not simply a matter of "telling them they're wrong."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the feeling that you're generalizing people who grew up in a religious household as those are more likely to be brainwashed, as opposed to those who were raised in a secular household, implying that they're more likely to be "open minded". Indoctrination can occur regardless of one's religious/non-religious beliefs.

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Old
06-08-2014, 11:48 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by ThirdManIn View Post
Polygamy, as pointed out by Chief Justice Waite way back in the 19th century, has been against English common law since the 16th century. United States law is drawn from English common law. Not only is it traditionally illegal (which does matter), but polygamy can lead to issues for society in general (noted in that Court decision was the perpetuation of the patriarchal system in communities in which bigamy is commonly practiced).

Incest can bring about issues for children borne out of the relationships. This has been well-documented. Yes, if incestuous couples did not have children it would solve that issue, but it's easier to just outlaw incest than it is to regulate whether or not couples are reproducing.

Under-age sex/marriage has to do with consent and impressionability. Children have to be protected from adults in these types of situations because they can be more easily influenced by adults.

Gay marriage has none of these hang ups. No one can say that one consenting homosexual adult marrying another consenting homosexual adult will bring with it any of the negatives of polygamy or under-age marriage. No one can say that two homosexuals marrying one another will produce the same kinds of genetic disorders that inbreeding causes. The only arguments I ever see are based in religion (which doesn't fly with me) or, similar to the above, "it's not normal" or "it's unnatural."

I wonder what was so natural about "traditional marriage" back before it was the "normal" thing to do.
Anti-Buggery Laws were even older than Anti-Polygamy Laws in the Common Law tradition, but otherwise you have a point.

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Old
06-09-2014, 12:10 AM
  #89
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Originally Posted by TheThrill81 View Post
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the feeling that you're generalizing people who grew up in a religious household as those are more likely to be brainwashed, as opposed to those who were raised in a secular household, implying that they're more likely to be "open minded". Indoctrination can occur regardless of one's religious/non-religious beliefs.
To be clear, my main point of open mindedness is regarding tolerance, primarily of homosexual couples, which is absolutely more "indoctrinated" against in religious households than they are in secular ones.

I agree that both sides have their fair share of close mindedness in regards to others' beliefs in general(hence me calling out the ridicule, which is unwarranted). I don't necessarily have anything against people choosing a different set of beliefs than I do, as long as they don't interfere with those of myself or others. But I do think that everyone has a right to being exposed to different sets of beliefs early on without the overwhelming bias that can be present in many communities.

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06-09-2014, 07:54 AM
  #90
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Your lack of humility is an inspiration to future generations. Stay classy Missouri.
Missouri?

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Old
06-09-2014, 08:44 AM
  #91
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Good post. I personally do think people can change by being challenged on their beliefs, but it usually has to occur pretty early on in their development. I believe that because I was one of the people I am now arguing against - I used many of the same arguments in this thread back in high school. Nobody really called me out on it and I wish they had. I cringe every time I think about it. I just grew up in a bubble and hadn't been exposed to the real world. Years of religious dogma being reinforced by people in a position of power does make people very unreceptive to change, but I do think it's possible.
I know there is a lot of geographical bias here, but I know so many people from very conservative religious backgrounds who have dropped the homophobia and fundamentalism without wholesale rebellion against the rest of the culture in which they were raised. I live in NYC and this is the sort-of normal process for immigrants, but it seems to be replicated for urbanized Americans from ultra religious backgrounds. For some reason my neighborhood seems to have an abundance of people from Georgia. Dunno why.

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Most religious people are intelligent, genuinely nice people. The ones that are willfully ignorant are obviously not going to change their minds, but it's worth having a discussion with the rest.
Totally agree.

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Old
06-09-2014, 08:58 AM
  #92
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I still miss Ference, the guy is awesome!

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06-09-2014, 09:01 AM
  #93
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Can I call out Beerz yet for deserting this thread? Looks like he had no response to those asking why gay marriage shouldn't be legal except to say that other things aren't legal, even though he's not comparing those other things to gay marriage.

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Old
06-09-2014, 09:49 AM
  #94
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Anti-Buggery Laws were even older than Anti-Polygamy Laws in the Common Law tradition, but otherwise you have a point.
I thought about that after I posted it, while making something to eat. I decided I would just leave it and hope no one pointed it out

edit: It should be added that anti-bigamy laws don't prohibit people from getting married. They only prevent people from getting married to multiple people. Laws against homosexual marriages don't allow for even a single marriage. There is a notable difference between the two.

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06-09-2014, 10:10 AM
  #95
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I still miss Ference, the guy is awesome!
except at hockey

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Old
06-09-2014, 10:13 AM
  #96
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except at hockey

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06-09-2014, 10:22 AM
  #97
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except at hockey
The Oilers. Where careers go to die.

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06-09-2014, 10:23 AM
  #98
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The Oilers. Where careers go to die.
In some cases, even before they begin.

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06-09-2014, 10:27 AM
  #99
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In some cases, even before they begin.
Ales Hemsky, happiest man in the NHL.

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06-09-2014, 10:30 AM
  #100
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Ference isn't that bad. As a bottom pairing defenseman on a good team he's a great fit. His problem is he's playing over 20 minutes per game for a terrible team.

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