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Ferguson's Search for a Defenseman

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Old
10-04-2003, 04:22 PM
  #26
wasting time
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Originally Posted by Shawn
He dosen't think Kaberle is based on the fact that he is not a super Defensive guy. Anyone lacking in either D or O is not complete and therefore not a #1 Dman.
Actually, I agree with sluggo on this one. Blake is a #1, or Lidstrom, or Hamrlik, or Jovo-cop, or Pronger, not Kaberle, for reasons cited above. Kaberle is a #2 in my books. McCabe a #3 if he were more consistent, Berg a #5, Marchment a #6, Jackman a potential #4 after this year, I believe, Klee a #4, Pushor a #7, Coli potential a #2 at best unless he starts to play tough D etc. etc.

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10-04-2003, 04:32 PM
  #27
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Originally Posted by Super_Joe
I think Kaberle is the #1 defenseman on the Leafs but I don't think he's considered a #1 defenseman in the league right now . In the future he'll be a #1 IMO .


I don't think Hamrlik is a #1 though .
Leaf Review

Finding a way to bolster this group will be Quinn's biggest challenge this season.

Fortunately, he has a solid No. 1 defenseman in Tomas Kaberle to build around. Just 25, Kaberle is reaching his prime as he enters his sixth season with the franchise. The durable Kaberle, who played in all 82 games for the third time in four seasons, reached career-best totals in goals (11), assists (36), penalty minutes (30) and plus/minus rating (plus-20) while averaging almost 25 minutes per game. Kaberle's versatility allows him to be deployed in every game situation.

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10-04-2003, 04:36 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by Icewind Dale
Leaf Review

Finding a way to bolster this group will be Quinn's biggest challenge this season.

Fortunately, he has a solid No. 1 defenseman in Tomas Kaberle to build around. Just 25, Kaberle is reaching his prime as he enters his sixth season with the franchise. The durable Kaberle, who played in all 82 games for the third time in four seasons, reached career-best totals in goals (11), assists (36), penalty minutes (30) and plus/minus rating (plus-20) while averaging almost 25 minutes per game. Kaberle's versatility allows him to be deployed in every game situation.

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10-04-2003, 04:48 PM
  #29
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Slot me in with the group that thinks Kaberle is a #2 D-Man right now, McCabe is a #4 D-Man.... #3 if he regains his level of play from 2yrs ago which I don't expect.

Klee is a #4 D-Man.
Marchment is a #5 D-Man, Berg is a number #6.
Jackman is a #6/7, Pushor is a #7.

In any case I don't expect Ferguson to be making any deals for a defencemen until closer to the trading deadline if then.
I think he's going to stick with what we have for now.

I figure we have a passable, if still a bit below average defence.
Hopefully some of our younger defensive prospects will be ready to jump in next year.

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10-04-2003, 05:07 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Icewind Dale
Leaf Review

Finding a way to bolster this group will be Quinn's biggest challenge this season.

Fortunately, he has a solid No. 1 defenseman in Tomas Kaberle to build around. Just 25, Kaberle is reaching his prime as he enters his sixth season with the franchise. The durable Kaberle, who played in all 82 games for the third time in four seasons, reached career-best totals in goals (11), assists (36), penalty minutes (30) and plus/minus rating (plus-20) while averaging almost 25 minutes per game. Kaberle's versatility allows him to be deployed in every game situation.
And so, like..because someone wrote it then its true? Do you want to go through past Hockey forecasters and Hockey News magazines to read their predictions?

Kaberle got chewed up in the playoffs because he was not big enough for 25 minutes a game.

To me the #1 guy is the guy you can put out there for 30 minutes whenever necessary. Kaberle is not big enough for that and is too much of a defensive liability to do that and be considered a wise move.

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10-04-2003, 05:08 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Rand
Slot me in with the group that thinks Kaberle is a #2 D-Man right now, McCabe is a #4 D-Man.... #3 if he regains his level of play from 2yrs ago which I don't expect.

Klee is a #4 D-Man.
Marchment is a #5 D-Man, Berg is a number #6.
Jackman is a #6/7, Pushor is a #7.

In any case I don't expect Ferguson to be making any deals for a defencemen until closer to the trading deadline if then.
I think he's going to stick with what we have for now.

I figure we have a passable, if still a bit below average defence.
Hopefully some of our younger defensive prospects will be ready to jump in next year.
This defense while passable is weak. Klee was a major improvement, but another top 4 is needed.

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10-04-2003, 05:24 PM
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wasting time
And so, like..because someone wrote it then its true? Do you want to go through past Hockey forecasters and Hockey News magazines to read their predictions?

Kaberle got chewed up in the playoffs because he was not big enough for 25 minutes a game.

To me the #1 guy is the guy you can put out there for 30 minutes whenever necessary. Kaberle is not big enough for that and is too much of a defensive liability to do that and be considered a wise move.
well considering it was on NHL.com I would say it is a fairly good, unbiased source.

What if anything said in that paragraph is untrue?

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10-04-2003, 05:27 PM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rand
Slot me in with the group that thinks Kaberle is a #2 D-Man right now, McCabe is a #4 D-Man.... #3 if he regains his level of play from 2yrs ago which I don't expect.

Klee is a #4 D-Man.
Marchment is a #5 D-Man, Berg is a number #6.
Jackman is a #6/7, Pushor is a #7.

In any case I don't expect Ferguson to be making any deals for a defencemen until closer to the trading deadline if then.
I think he's going to stick with what we have for now.

I figure we have a passable, if still a bit below average defence.
Hopefully some of our younger defensive prospects will be ready to jump in next year.
I agree, there are really only a handful of true #1 defensemen in the NHL these days.

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10-04-2003, 06:27 PM
  #34
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I really doubt that the Leafs will easily part with Antropov short of an excellent trade in their favour. If Toronto has one future weakness, it's a shortage of forwards in the youth pipeline. After Antropov, Steen, Stajan and perhaps 2 to 3 maybe's, it's looking pretty thin.

If a trade for a top 4 defenceman is going to happen, I'd say it will consist of some package involving Tucker, Belak, draft pick(s) and/or some of the young/rookie defence prospects (no likely including Cola). I have nothing against Belak, but c'mon, you don't find the likes of Belak on any team with Cup aspirations. With Nolan, Roberts, Domi, Marchement, McCabe, Tucker, Niuewendyk, Antropov and others (ie. Perrott waiting in the wings), we have more than enuf grit in the lineup.

Look at the young defence prospects: Cola, Kondratiev, Hedin, Bell, Harrison, Pilar, Dougherty for starters. Would seem to me that there are likely at least 3 future NHL's in that mix. Then factor Kaberle, Berg and Jacman into the mix, as they are younger defencemen on the current Leaf NHL roster. In short, we can dangle some of the prospects because of our depth.

I see Domi has been brought up. Granted IMHO, he's the best tough guy in the game given his all round combination of grit, fisticuffs, defence and ability to get some points. However, he's also making $2 million a year which has got make him one of top paid 3rd/4th liners in the NHL. IMHO, that severely diminishes his trade value unless Toronto is prepared to eat some of his salary. However that should be less of a factor come the trade deadline.

Anyhow, even with McCabe out, there's no need for panic. He should be back in about 6 weeks and in the interim we'll get to see what Jacman, Berg and one of the kids is made of. Personally, I believe that Jacman is going to step up this year if Quinn gives him the chance.

P.S. Can you imagine a 4th line consisting of Nathan Perrott, Tom Fitzgerald and Tie Domi ?! That's a wrecking ball checking line!

P.P.S. Try the following forward lines on for size:

Antropov Sundin Mogilny
Roberts Nieuwendyk Nolan
Tucker Reichel Renberg
Perrott/Stajan Fitzgerald Domi

Spares: Poni/Perrott/Belak [if your not going to play Stajan in the regular lineup, send him to the Rock to develop]

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Old
10-04-2003, 07:02 PM
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheBudsForever
I really doubt that the Leafs will easily part with Antropov short of an excellent trade in their favour. If Toronto has one future weakness, it's a shortage of forwards in the youth pipeline. After Antropov, Steen, Stajan and perhaps 2 to 3 maybe's, it's looking pretty thin.

If a trade for a top 4 defenceman is going to happen, I'd say it will consist of some package involving Tucker, Belak, draft pick(s) and/or some of the young/rookie defence prospects (no likely including Cola). I have nothing against Belak, but c'mon, you don't find the likes of Belak on any team with Cup aspirations. With Nolan, Roberts, Domi, Marchement, McCabe, Tucker, Niuewendyk, Antropov and others (ie. Perrott waiting in the wings), we have more than enuf grit in the lineup.

Look at the young defence prospects: Cola, Kondratiev, Hedin, Bell, Harrison, Pilar, Dougherty for starters. Would seem to me that there are likely at least 3 future NHL's in that mix. Then factor Kaberle, Berg and Jacman into the mix, as they are younger defencemen on the current Leaf NHL roster. In short, we can dangle some of the prospects because of our depth.

I see Domi has been brought up. Granted IMHO, he's the best tough guy in the game given his all round combination of grit, fisticuffs, defence and ability to get some points. However, he's also making $2 million a year which has got make him one of top paid 3rd/4th liners in the NHL. IMHO, that severely diminishes his trade value unless Toronto is prepared to eat some of his salary. However that should be less of a factor come the trade deadline.

Anyhow, even with McCabe out, there's no need for panic. He should be back in about 6 weeks and in the interim we'll get to see what Jacman, Berg and one of the kids is made of. Personally, I believe that Jacman is going to step up this year if Quinn gives him the chance.

P.S. Can you imagine a 4th line consisting of Nathan Perrott, Tom Fitzgerald and Tie Domi ?! That's a wrecking ball checking line!

P.P.S. Try the following forward lines on for size:

Antropov Sundin Mogilny
Roberts Nieuwendyk Nolan
Tucker Reichel Renberg
Perrott/Stajan Fitzgerald Domi

Spares: Poni/Perrott/Belak [if your not going to play Stajan in the regular lineup, send him to the Rock to develop]
great post....

hard to argue with anything you have said here.

That's a hard working lineup, with some great offensive punch! Bring on the season!

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Old
10-05-2003, 02:07 AM
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cob
I agree, there are really only a handful of true #1 defensemen in the NHL these days.
That's the problem I have with the current definition many use to determine if someoe is a #1. They have mixed up the notion of being an elite guy (Pronger, Lidstrom, etc) and being a #1. IMO it is stupid to use a definition according to which there is only a handful of #1 defensemen in a 30 team league. Since Kaberle is clearly the #1 on the Leafs and i easily among the 30 best Dmen in the league I do consider him to be a #1. As I have said before though, it is rather dependant on one's definition of a #1 defenseman.

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10-05-2003, 05:20 AM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wasting time
So, this is good information. If Antropov is not going anywhere then what will they get in return.

They'll get nothing in return because neither Hamrlik or Jonsson are being dealt.

Press reported the Leafs approached the isles about a deal.NYI didn't call trying to move Hamrlik or Jonsson to Toronto.

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10-05-2003, 05:40 AM
  #38
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Originally Posted by cob
well considering it was on NHL.com I would say it is a fairly good, unbiased source.

What if anything said in that paragraph is untrue?
When does NHL.com ever discuss a player's shortcomings. It is a marketing site.

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10-05-2003, 05:59 AM
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wasting time
When does NHL.com ever discuss a player's shortcomings. It is a marketing site.
They are not a marketing site for the Leaf's... so what's your point?

I guess they choose to focus on what teams have as opposed to what they don't have. You have been exposed to toronto media for much too long. No player in Toronto is allowed their due without clearly explaining to everyone that they are not perfect.

Do yourself a favour, learn to appreciate what you have not what you don't have. You may find yourself a whole hell of a lot happier... and maybe a bit more positive too.

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10-05-2003, 06:04 AM
  #40
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Originally Posted by DutchLeafsfan
That's the problem I have with the current definition many use to determine if someoe is a #1. They have mixed up the notion of being an elite guy (Pronger, Lidstrom, etc) and being a #1. IMO it is stupid to use a definition according to which there is only a handful of #1 defensemen in a 30 team league. Since Kaberle is clearly the #1 on the Leafs and i easily among the 30 best Dmen in the league I do consider him to be a #1. As I have said before though, it is rather dependant on one's definition of a #1 defenseman.
I agree...

Trying to rank a player amongst his peers is a measure in futility. Its all based on conjecture and opinions. There is really no unbiased way of doing it.

On Kabby, I'm with you... he's one of the best defensemen the LEafs have had in sometime. He is going to be some kind of player. Too bad most people in T.O won't give him the credit he would get elsewhere.

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10-05-2003, 06:16 AM
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wasting time
And so, like..because someone wrote it then its true?
I'd take his word over yours anyday.

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10-05-2003, 06:26 AM
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wasting time
And so, like..because someone wrote it then its true? Do you want to go through past Hockey forecasters and Hockey News magazines to read their predictions?

Kaberle got chewed up in the playoffs because he was not big enough for 25 minutes a game.

To me the #1 guy is the guy you can put out there for 30 minutes whenever necessary. Kaberle is not big enough for that and is too much of a defensive liability to do that and be considered a wise move.
No, but it just reinforces the opinion of the majority of fans who know what they're talking about. As I have said many times in the past, and now cob has, in a 30 team league there's going to be more than a handful of #1 defensemen in the league. It's ridiculous to think that a player can't be a #1 defenseman if they're not elite. I don't think that anyone would disagree that Biron or Salo are legitimate #1 goaltenders. Do you think anyone would call them elite, though? It's not different than the goaltending situation. As well, predicting a player's statistics for the season and calling him a #1 defenseman are two different things. One's a guess and the other is an observation.

The whole argument that Kaberle had a bad playoff is a poor one. The entire team had a poor playoff by their standards. Mogilny's the only one who truly produced in that series. I guess he's our only first liner? No, the whole argument is a poor one.

No player in the league plays for 30 minutes a game. Lidstrom and Aucoin are the closest at 29 minutes. The next closest is under 27 minutes.

Kaberle is definitely not a defensive liability. I think you've been listening to sluggo too long. Your definition of a #1 defenseman is a little narrow and closer to being what a top defenseman is. Generally, a #1 defenseman is a player who can excel at both ends of the ice, play in all situations and log around 25 minutes a game. Kaberle does that.

Cob's right. Some people should appreciate what they have instead of being cynical all the time.

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10-05-2003, 08:16 AM
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn
I'd take his word over yours anyday.
Well today on Leafs TV Jim Kelly, Mike Zeisberge and Howard Berger were all discussing the Lafs lack of a #1 defenseman - which they have not had for 30 years. I could really care less if you take my word or not - its just opinions - and as the expression goes, opinions are like ... - everyone has one.

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10-05-2003, 08:21 AM
  #44
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Originally Posted by wasting time
Well today on Leafs TV Jim Kelly, Mike Zeisberge and Howard Berger were all discussing the Lafs lack of a #1 defenseman - which they have not had for 30 years. I could really care less if you take my word or not - its just opinions - and as the expression goes, opinions are like ... - everyone has one.
And I could really care less if you believe Kabs is a #1 guy or not.

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10-05-2003, 09:22 AM
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cob
They are not a marketing site for the Leaf's... so what's your point?

I guess they choose to focus on what teams have as opposed to what they don't have. You have been exposed to toronto media for much too long. No player in Toronto is allowed their due without clearly explaining to everyone that they are not perfect.

Do yourself a favour, learn to appreciate what you have not what you don't have. You may find yourself a whole hell of a lot happier... and maybe a bit more positive too.
Please, when others bashed Belfour last year, I was a huge advocate of his signing. I am very bullish on Jackman this year - more so than anyone on this board potentially. I also think Tellqvist will be a very good goalie someday. I am a big defender of Quinn. I like the signing of JF. I even am a big fan of Dryden. I even think Sundin makes a good captain and believe Nolan was a good signing (partially because I am not convinced about Boyes).

But, I don't think Kaberle is a #1 yet in this stage of his career. The defense is weak. Antropov is starting to make me wonder, a lot. Quinn's permission of undisciplined play is very annoying. Quinn is a mediocre GM. Domi is totally expendable. Kidd has been a cieve for the last 5 years. The Leafs future on defense is excellent, but Coli is NOT ready yet, neither is Hedin or Kondriatev (nor did I ever believe they would be going into this year) and their future would be better served on the Rock.

I am positive when things make me feel good. I am negative when things make me feel bad. I think that is what is called, BALANCED.

When other cities make fun of Toronto fans planning the parade route - they are not referring to fans like me, you know.

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10-05-2003, 11:53 AM
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wasting time
Well today on Leafs TV Jim Kelly, Mike Zeisberge and Howard Berger were all discussing the Lafs lack of a #1 defenseman - which they have not had for 30 years.

30yrs? So would that mean they dont consider Salming a #1 dman either?

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10-05-2003, 12:07 PM
  #47
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Originally Posted by loveshack2
30yrs? So would that mean they dont consider Salming a #1 dman either?
Ahh...Salming. a very good Defenseman to be sure. He seems to have gotten a lot better over the years. He was definately a #1 quality in the 70s, not the 80s - but hey, that was 30 years ago. That's the point. Kaberle is verygood, but not as strong defensively as salming was in his prime, but maybe this will be the year I hope. He is not the so-called "horse" yet. Chelios was a #1 almost 10 years ago.

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10-05-2003, 12:19 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by wasting time
Ahh...Salming. a very good Defenseman to be sure. He seems to have gotten a lot better over the years. He was definately a #1 quality in the 70s, not the 80s - but hey, that was 30 years ago. That's the point. Kaberle is verygood, but not as strong defensively as salming was in his prime, but maybe this will be the year I hope. He is not the so-called "horse" yet. Chelios was a #1 almost 10 years ago.
Just splitting hairs I guess. It's 2003 now and Salming didnt even join the NHL until the 73/74 season, obviously his rookie season wasnt his best year, ergo he was good less than 30yrs ago. Like I said, probably just splitting hairs, if their intention was to say that the Leafs havent had a #1 since Salming and they just ballparked the numbers then I would understand that.

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10-05-2003, 12:27 PM
  #49
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Originally Posted by loveshack2
Just splitting hairs I guess. It's 2003 now and Salming didnt even join the NHL until the 73/74 season, obviously his rookie season wasnt his best year, ergo he was good less than 30yrs ago. Like I said, probably just splitting hairs, if their intention was to say that the Leafs havent had a #1 since Salming and they just ballparked the numbers then I would understand that.
That is what they were saying. But the 1980s Salming certainly was not the same guy from the late 70s.

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10-05-2003, 02:20 PM
  #50
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If I was JFJ I would just bite the bullet and go with what they have....even start using some of their younger guys.........If anyone does become available it might be more towards the trading deadline before the start of the playoffs.

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