HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > Non-Sports > Political Discussion - "on-topic & unmoderated"
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Political Discussion - "on-topic & unmoderated" Rated PG13, unmoderated but threads must stay on topic - that means you can flame each other all you want as long as it's legal

Quagmire Iraq - 2014 Edition

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-12-2014, 06:23 PM
  #76
Puck
Ninja
 
Puck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Tahiti
Posts: 8,959
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
Depends. As of right now that is probably the best of a bunch of bad options, but there was a moderate opposition a couple of years ago that we failed to adequately support despite a constant stream of high-ranking and rank-and-file army defections.
Perhaps. I'm sure you could find a person to competently replace Assad but there is an entire political infrastructure and network that has already spent bullets creating their network of tribal alliances. Replace that and upset the current balance and you start a whole new set of negotiated alliances with some arguments using bullets again. Odds are you'd be replacing one set of a-holes with just another set of a-holes. But they would be our a-holes not someone else's. You have to hope it's worth it, that's all.

Puck is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 06:45 PM
  #77
TheMoreYouKnow
Registered User
 
TheMoreYouKnow's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Eire
Posts: 8,921
vCash: 500


How long until we see this in Baghdad?

TheMoreYouKnow is online now  
Old
06-12-2014, 07:00 PM
  #78
Ugmo
Registered User
 
Ugmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Country: Austria
Posts: 10,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheMoreYouKnow View Post


How long until we see this in Baghdad?
You're not going to see that in Baghdad. These guys have zero support in Shia-dominated areas. They're not going to get much further than they've already gotten.

Ugmo is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 07:09 PM
  #79
Led Zappa
Tomorrow Today!
 
Led Zappa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,311
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck View Post
The conflict there never stopped since the Bush invasion. It just stops being news because the novelty wears off, it's part of the scenery. Sometimes something out of the norm occurs and it makes the papers again. ANd now it's Obama's fault? I just heard Cantor say he has much work left with Republicans to repair the Obama economy; I just about fell off my chair.

The same will happen in Afghanistan once all US troops leave. It;s probably why Obama is keeping a few there until after the 2014 mid-terms. Karzai's muppet will last about 2-3 years at best after Obama pulls the last soldier out.
We can't possibly know Bush's legacy on Iraq for at least 30 years. However, it's failures today are clearly Obama's fault.

__________________

Youth Movement! Tally Ho...
Led Zappa is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 07:15 PM
  #80
GarbageGoal
Follow the Buzzards
 
GarbageGoal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: RI
Country: United States
Posts: 10,221
vCash: 500
Bu...but...but Dr. Condi Rice said.....

GarbageGoal is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 07:48 PM
  #81
Finlandia WOAT
Do U Like Quebec?
 
Finlandia WOAT's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Raleigh NC
Country: United States
Posts: 9,529
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
Fellas, Bush's war destabilized the entire region und unleashed the power of radical Islamism. Say what you want about the Sunnis under Saddam, but they weren't radical fundamentalists like this current crop.
lol I think Bush was one the most disastrous Presidents ever (up there with Buchanan), but the destabilization of the Middle East and the rise of radical Islam were well under way long before Bush was given the reigns to power.

Finlandia WOAT is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 07:50 PM
  #82
Ugmo
Registered User
 
Ugmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Country: Austria
Posts: 10,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finlandia WOAT View Post
lol I think Bush was one the most disastrous Presidents ever, but the destabilization of the Middle East and the rise of radical Islam were well under way long before Bush was given the reigns to power.
So let me get this straight: you are refuting that the 2003 invasion dramatically changed the delicate balance of power in the Middle East?

LOL (to borrow a phrase from Vtwin)

Ugmo is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 07:54 PM
  #83
Finlandia WOAT
Do U Like Quebec?
 
Finlandia WOAT's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Raleigh NC
Country: United States
Posts: 9,529
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
So let me get this straight: you are refuting that the 2003 invasion dramatically changed the delicate balance of power in the Middle East?
Saying "the 2003 invasion of Iraq changed the delicate balance of power in the Middle East" and blaming Bush for radical Islam and the destabilization of the Middle East are two different sentiments.

One of them is a fact; because it removed the Taliban and Sadaam Hussein and their respective governments. The other is a poorly thought out opinion that ignores some 50 years of U.S. history in the Middle East.

You are also ignoring how insanely popular the invasion of Afghanistan was at the time. Bush would have been destroyed by the Democrats and his own party if he had done nothing and lost huge amounts of popular support.

Finlandia WOAT is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 07:58 PM
  #84
EvilCorporateLawyer
Very slippery slope
 
EvilCorporateLawyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Country Roads
Country: United States
Posts: 75,099
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to EvilCorporateLawyer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightslyr View Post
Which is something I don't understand. Is it about oil? Religion? A mix of the two?

It's just odd that we always poke that area with a stick/bomb/drone, but not other areas, like, say, Africa-proper.
It's a mix of a few things. Mostly oil.

__________________
"Of course giving Sather cap space is like giving teenagers whiskey and car keys." - SBOB
"Watching Sather build a team is like watching a blind man with no fingers trying to put together an elaborate puzzle." - Shadowtron
"Used to be only Twinkies and cockroaches could survive a nuke. I'd add Habs to that. I'm convinced the CH stands for Club du Hypocrisy." - Gee Wally
EvilCorporateLawyer is online now  
Old
06-12-2014, 08:00 PM
  #85
EvilCorporateLawyer
Very slippery slope
 
EvilCorporateLawyer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Country Roads
Country: United States
Posts: 75,099
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to EvilCorporateLawyer
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finlandia WOAT View Post
You are also ignoring how insanely popular the invasion of Afghanistan was at the time. Bush would have been destroyed by the Democrats and his own party if he had done nothing and lost huge amounts of popular support.
Well, Afghanistan was a must do. We had to attack them. Even the most liberal libs that ever libbed would've been fine with bombing the **** out of them. The obvious problem was going to Iraq since it split the force and didn't let us focus on the people that actually harbored who attacked us.

Iraq, to me, is an unforgivable war. **** Bush.

EvilCorporateLawyer is online now  
Old
06-12-2014, 08:01 PM
  #86
Ugmo
Registered User
 
Ugmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Country: Austria
Posts: 10,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finlandia WOAT View Post
Saying "the 2003 invasion of Iraq changed the delicate balance of power in the Middle East" and blaming Bush for radical Islam and the destabilization of the Middle East are two different sentiments.

One of them is a fact; because it removed the Taliban and Sadaam Hussein and their respective governments. The other is a poorly thought out opinion that ignores some 50 years of U.S. history in the Middle East.

You are also ignoring how insanely popular the invasion of Afghanistan was at the time. Bush would have been destroyed by the Democrats and his own party if he had done nothing and lost huge amounts of popular support.
Psst. Afghanistan isn't in the Middle East, and the invasion of Afghanistan didn't happen in 2003. You're welcome.

Ugmo is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 08:03 PM
  #87
slip
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,788
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
Fellas, Bush's war destabilized the entire region und unleashed the power of radical Islamism. Say what you want about the Sunnis under Saddam, but they weren't radical fundamentalists like this current crop.
Islam was radicalized and the Middle East destabilized long before Bush took power.

slip is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 08:05 PM
  #88
Finlandia WOAT
Do U Like Quebec?
 
Finlandia WOAT's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Raleigh NC
Country: United States
Posts: 9,529
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by slip View Post
Islam was radicalized and the Middle East destabilized long before Bush took power.
I would phrase it "elements of Islam were radicalized" (to be politically correct ) but pretty much.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
Psst. Afghanistan isn't in the Middle East, and the invasion of Afghanistan didn't happen in 2003. You're welcome.
Whatevs, see above.

Finlandia WOAT is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 08:09 PM
  #89
Ugmo
Registered User
 
Ugmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Country: Austria
Posts: 10,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finlandia WOAT View Post
Whatevs, see above.
I saw above. It has nothing to do with my statement. You brought up Afghanistan for some bizarre reason, which was irrelevant to the discussion. The 2001 invasion of Iraq significantly destablilized the balance of power in the Middle East, period.

Ugmo is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 08:12 PM
  #90
Puck
Ninja
 
Puck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Tahiti
Posts: 8,959
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
We can't possibly know Bush's legacy on Iraq for at least 30 years. However, it's failures today are clearly Obama's fault.
You know me. Nobody bashed Bush more than I did for 8 years. At some point though, we're going to have to call a statute of limitations on his influence. In a partisan way, I suppose we can always blame him like Republicans blame Obama for sunsets. But I'm going to say that Iraqis are going to have to start taking responsibility for their own failures at some point and stop blaming the US for everything. Maybe it's still too early for some but...

Puck is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 08:17 PM
  #91
Finlandia WOAT
Do U Like Quebec?
 
Finlandia WOAT's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Raleigh NC
Country: United States
Posts: 9,529
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
I saw above. It has nothing to do with my statement. You brought up Afghanistan for some bizarre reason, which was irrelevant to the discussion. The 2003 invasion of Iraq significantly destablilized the balance of power in the Middle East, period.
Sure; but blaming the destabilization of the Middle East and the rise of Radical Islam in general on Bush is incorrect. The region was already very unstable when Bush arrived; his invasion made it worse.

The main destabilization came from Iran's reaction to the former situation of being surrounded by one somewhat ambiguous ally and one on again-off again enemy that they had already beat once to two U.S. backed nations. Hence we get the nuclear arms attempts and shut-downs at the Straight of Hormuz as knee jerk reactions that further threatened the overall stability of the region, since countries like Israel or Lebanon do NOT want Iran to have nuclear capability.

But the steps that lead to this scenario were already concrete long before Bush came into power.

Finlandia WOAT is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 08:19 PM
  #92
Puck
Ninja
 
Puck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Tahiti
Posts: 8,959
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finlandia WOAT View Post
But the steps that lead to this scenario were already concrete long before Bush came into power.
I didn't go that far. The fire was there but he still poured gas on that fire. Just saying he isn't there now and close that chapter.

Puck is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 08:21 PM
  #93
Ugmo
Registered User
 
Ugmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Country: Austria
Posts: 10,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finlandia WOAT View Post
Sure; but blaming the destabilization of the Middle East and the rise of Radical Islam in general on Bush is incorrect. The region was already very unstable when Bush arrived; his invasion made it worse.

The main destabilization came from Iran's reaction to the former situation of being surrounded by one somewhat ambiguous ally and one on again-off again enemy that they had already beat once to two U.S. backed nations. Hence we get the nuclear arms attempts and shut-downs at the Straight of Hormuz as knee jerk reactions that further threatened the overall stability of the region, since countries like Israel or Lebanon do NOT want Iran to have nuclear capability.

But the steps that lead to this scenario were already concrete long before Bush came into power.
I'm not blaming the rise of radical Islam "in general" on the Iraq invasion, I'm blaming the rise of radical Islam in the Middle East region on the invasion of Iraq. How many radical Islamists were there in Iraq prior to 2003? How many were there in Syria prior to 2003? An entire swathe of the region is now in danger of becoming a failed state the way Afghanistan is due to the invasion in 2003 and Bush's failure to plan for the occupation.

You want to talk about Iran? Iran had a major counterweight on its Western border prior to 2003. Now it doesn't any more.

Ugmo is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 08:21 PM
  #94
slip
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 8,788
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finlandia WOAT View Post
The main destabilization came from Iran's reaction to the former situation of being surrounded by one somewhat ambiguous ally and one on again-off again enemy that they had already beat once to two U.S. backed nations. Hence we get the nuclear arms attempts and shut-downs at the Straight of Hormuz as knee jerk reactions that further threatened the overall stability of the region, since countries like Israel or Lebanon do NOT want Iran to have nuclear capability.

But the steps that lead to this scenario were already concrete long before Bush came into power.
But really, the main destabilizing force in the region is, was, and always will be the United States and it's proxy allies (Israel, the Shah back in the day).

slip is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 08:22 PM
  #95
Finlandia WOAT
Do U Like Quebec?
 
Finlandia WOAT's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Raleigh NC
Country: United States
Posts: 9,529
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck View Post
I didn't go that far. The fire was there but he still poured gas on that fire.
I agree with this. I just want to make it clear that the region was plenty unstable and radical Islam was a potent force long before Bush arrived.

Finlandia WOAT is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 08:26 PM
  #96
Ugmo
Registered User
 
Ugmo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Country: Austria
Posts: 10,714
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finlandia WOAT View Post
I agree with this. I just want to make it clear that the region was plenty unstable and radical Islam was a potent force long before Bush arrived.
It wasn't nearly as unstable as it is right now, post-2003 invasion, and radical Islamists didn't have an entire region (Western Iraq, Eastern Syria) to consolidate like they currently do.

Ugmo is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 08:42 PM
  #97
Finlandia WOAT
Do U Like Quebec?
 
Finlandia WOAT's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Raleigh NC
Country: United States
Posts: 9,529
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
I'm blaming the rise of radical Islam in the Middle East region on the invasion of Iraq. How many radical Islamists were there in Iraq prior to 2003? How many were there in Syria prior to 2003? An entire swathe of the region is now in danger of becoming a failed state the way Afghanistan is due to the invasion in 2003 and Bush's failure to plan for the occupation.
Radical Islam was already a force in the region before Bush.

Al Quada got their start in Afghanistan in the '70's fighting against the Soviets. They spread throughout the Middle East and carried out multiple terrorist attacks long before Bush ever ascended to the Oval Office.

The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt has been around since the 60's when Nasser had to curb their power.

Iran is one of the few functioning theocracies based on Sharia law in the world.

Sadaam Hussein had to deal with it when he was in power; he responded with brutally against anyone who was a radicalist, anyone suspected of being a radicalist and and anyone or any village suspected of helping a radicalist in any way.

The forces for Radical Islam where already active and flourishing when Bush invaded in 2003.

As for your argument, has anyone bothered to sit down and take a count of Radical Islamist fighters pre and post American occupation?

As for Syria, I don't see the connection between invasion of Iraq and the violence of that country. I would pin that on the brutal dictator that Assad is, the Arab Spring movement and the rise of social media and the internet in the Middle East in general (the last one is very big)before pinning Iraq on Syria.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ugmo View Post
It wasn't nearly as unstable as it is right now, post-2003 invasion, and radical Islamists didn't have an entire region (Western Iraq, Eastern Syria) to consolidate like they currently do.
Iraq, specifically, was not as unstable. Because it was being run by a brutal dictatorship which employed brutal means to silence opposition. You can blame the invasion on that, I think- rise of violent, dissident forces often happens when you replace a strong government with a weak one.

For the rest of the region, it is not as simple to simply place the blame on Bush and his invasion of Iraq without taking into consideration long standing forces.

Finlandia WOAT is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 08:44 PM
  #98
Led Zappa
Tomorrow Today!
 
Led Zappa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Sunnyvale, CA
Country: Scotland
Posts: 34,311
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Puck View Post
You know me. Nobody bashed Bush more than I did for 8 years. At some point though, we're going to have to call a statute of limitations on his influence. In a partisan way, I suppose we can always blame him like Republicans blame Obama for sunsets. But I'm going to say that Iraqis are going to have to start taking responsibility for their own failures at some point and stop blaming the US for everything. Maybe it's still too early for some but...
I hear ya.

When do you think Biden gets his apology for suggesting the country be divided into 3 parts

Led Zappa is offline  
Old
06-12-2014, 08:53 PM
  #99
TheMoreYouKnow
Registered User
 
TheMoreYouKnow's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Eire
Posts: 8,921
vCash: 500
Surely the fact that Obama pimped for Libyan intervention and then Syrian intervention shows that this issue transcends any GOP/Democrat differences. The belief that military force should be used to achieve "desirable" regime changes especially with regard to the old Middle Eastern dictators is deeply rooted in the Democratic and Republican D.C. establishment.

TheMoreYouKnow is online now  
Old
06-12-2014, 09:01 PM
  #100
Puck
Ninja
 
Puck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Ottawa
Country: Tahiti
Posts: 8,959
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Led Zappa View Post
I hear ya.

When do you think Biden gets his apology for suggesting the country be divided into 3 parts
Federalization might be a solution there. Could give the Sunnis hope to take charge of their own affairs at some levels. I think the problem was that not all regions had oil for revenue. There would have to be revenue sharing and now that the Shia have 100 billion a year to spend on their own cronyism, will they be willing to give that up. Not easily I figure. The Kurds are ok there, they had oil.

Puck is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:37 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.