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Old
07-10-2014, 11:30 AM
  #776
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I played a fair bit of soccer before in my younger days, and I dove. A lot. I'm not ashamed to admit it. There are a lot of reasons why, not the least of which is getting tackled legitimately hurts like a *****.
Not only does it hurt, but it really doesn't take much to send a guy running full tilt down to the turf. A shove or tug here, a clip on the ankles there. Now the embellishment after the fact can be a bit much, but there's such a huge tactical advantage to be gained from getting a call that you'd have to ask why the hell wouldn't one dive?

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07-10-2014, 11:52 AM
  #777
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Not only does it hurt, but it really doesn't take much to send a guy running full tilt down to the turf. A shove or tug here, a clip on the ankles there. Now the embellishment after the fact can be a bit much, but there's such a huge tactical advantage to be gained from getting a call that you'd have to ask why the hell wouldn't one dive?
For one thing in instances where somebody can continue going forward the play on may also be a productive pursuit.

That said something needs to change to rebalance the current problem of reinforcing diving. One thing that has occurred through the decades is that the threshold for a penalty kick to be called has increased. When I first started watching WC it was as if any contact would be called. They've stepped back a lot from that but with now the decision to call or not call being more subjective and controversial.

My own take is to change the rule and not award a penalty from the spot (which is too rewarding) and instead the kick should occur just outside the box from whatever area the infraction took place and with a yellow card automatic. I would do it that way and teams that foul in the box would eventually suffer. I can't understand the amnesty for yellow cards either. If cards are awarded judiciously they are deserved and should remain. Why the get out of jail free card?

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07-10-2014, 01:32 PM
  #778
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Other thing they really ought to do is give cards out for diving. Other players slide tackle missed by a mile? Still fell theatrically? Bam Yellow card.

I also think they should decrease the strength of penalty kicks in general. It's dumb that getting a penalty kick is a better opportunity than beating your man 1 on 1. Silly imo. Maybe make a penalty kick move good a 5-10 yard yards away from the net?

I dunno. The optics of soccer because of the frequent dives is really bad though. I like the sport, but the diving culture kills me. If we can't have more Messi, make not being Messi unfavorable.

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07-10-2014, 01:46 PM
  #779
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Other thing they really ought to do is give cards out for diving. Other players slide tackle missed by a mile? Still fell theatrically? Bam Yellow card.

I also think they should decrease the strength of penalty kicks in general. It's dumb that getting a penalty kick is a better opportunity than beating your man 1 on 1. Silly imo. Maybe make a penalty kick move good a 5-10 yard yards away from the net?

I dunno. The optics of soccer because of the frequent dives is really bad though. I like the sport, but the diving culture kills me. If we can't have more Messi, make not being Messi unfavorable.
Exactly what I suggest above. Move the kick away from the spot and have it taken outside the box.

This removes the motivation to fall down when players know that play on is a better scoring option.

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07-10-2014, 02:11 PM
  #780
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The thing with diving is the same thing as NHL guys who look like they just experienced whiplash when a stick gets up near their faces. Sometimes you need to draw the ref's attention to get a penalty.

Look at one of the fouls called on Holland against Messi - he was going by, and there was a tiny jersey tug by Martens Indi (I think), and suddenly 2 steps later, Messi is going down. That was a cardable offence, but it's more likely the ref wouldn't have noticed it if Messi hadn't gone down.


The other issue with diving for calls is the corollary - Brazil, supposed experts at "beautiful football", beat Columbia by fouling James Bond Rodriguez whenever he touched the ball.

Soccer needs to find a way to deal with midfield, professional/cynical fouls. Otherwise it is to every team's advantage to take out players like James and Messi, because the only penalty is to give a free kick 30 metres out, where a goal is extremely unlikely (Messi hits about 8% of the time).

That could simply be giving more yellow and red cards, or some other option. But if people are complaining about 0-0 scores in soccer, they need to deal with fouls as well, IMHO.

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07-10-2014, 02:32 PM
  #781
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For one thing in instances where somebody can continue going forward the play on may also be a productive pursuit.

That said something needs to change to rebalance the current problem of reinforcing diving. One thing that has occurred through the decades is that the threshold for a penalty kick to be called has increased. When I first started watching WC it was as if any contact would be called. They've stepped back a lot from that but with now the decision to call or not call being more subjective and controversial.

My own take is to change the rule and not award a penalty from the spot (which is too rewarding) and instead the kick should occur just outside the box from whatever area the infraction took place and with a yellow card automatic. I would do it that way and teams that foul in the box would eventually suffer.
I expect if you take away the threat of the almost certain goal, you risk turning play in the area into a hack fest. IMO there needs to be a distinction between a clear cut scoring opportunity and instances like the foul Robben drew to bet Mexico. I'd do it like this: if a player is fouled in the 18 yard box and the foul negates a clear cut scoring opportunity, its a penalty from the usual spot. Same if a player in possession of the ball fouled in the 6 yard box. Otherwise, if there's no clear scoring chance, a free kick on the edge of the box would be awarded.

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07-10-2014, 02:38 PM
  #782
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Originally Posted by Moose Coleman View Post
I expect if you take away the threat of the almost certain goal, you risk turning play in the area into a hack fest. IMO there needs to be a distinction between a clear cut scoring opportunity and instances like the foul Robben drew to bet Mexico. I'd do it like this: if a player is fouled in the 18 yard box and the foul negates a clear cut scoring opportunity, its a penalty from the usual spot. Same if a player in possession of the ball fouled in the 6 yard box. Otherwise, if there's no clear scoring chance, a free kick on the edge of the box would be awarded.
You trust the FIFA officials to be able to make that kind of judgment call on a consistent basis?

You, sir, are a trusting man.

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07-10-2014, 02:50 PM
  #783
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You trust the FIFA officials to be able to make that kind of judgment call on a consistent basis?

You, sir, are a trusting man.
Unless you come up with an infallible RoboRef, any enforcement of the rules necessarily requires a judgement call by the officials. If anything, this would give them a bit more flexibility.

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07-10-2014, 02:54 PM
  #784
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They should incorporate something like rugby where there are two officials, one on the field and one beside the field watching on a monitor. If there's ever any debate, the on-field ref just talks to the guy at the monitor for another opinion. Takes only a few seconds to confirm, and they broadcast the conversation, so there's a lot less room for abuse of the system. Haven't yet heard a good argument against something like that. Doesn't take much time and doesn't interfere much with the "natural" flow of the game.

Aside from that, I'd also have someone go through game tape after the fact and impose mandatory fines for every instance of embellishment. Dive 5 times over the course of a game, even if there was legitimately a foul? Enjoy a $50,000 fine. These players make a ton of money, but those start to add up quickly.

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07-12-2014, 03:19 PM
  #785
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2-0 for the Dutch in the 17th minute. I can't believe Brazil was actually favored in this game. I rarely make soccer bets but after watching the fiasco in the semi final I thought this was too good an opportunity to pass up.

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07-12-2014, 03:45 PM
  #786
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2-0 for the Dutch in the 17th minute. I can't believe Brazil was actually favored in this game. I rarely make soccer bets but after watching the fiasco in the semi final I thought this was too good an opportunity to pass up.
Agreed. I'm not even watching this game because I had a feeling Brazil would play uninspired football.

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07-12-2014, 04:28 PM
  #787
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Please be aware:

HFBoards will not allow "BrazilDefence" as a password from now on. It's too weak.

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07-12-2014, 10:59 PM
  #788
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2-0 for the Dutch in the 17th minute. I can't believe Brazil was actually favored in this game. I rarely make soccer bets but after watching the fiasco in the semi final I thought this was too good an opportunity to pass up.
Typically the first goal scored on a penalty kick with Robben getting hauled down which imo was just outside the box but they gave the penalty kick on the spot anyway.

Fitting I guess that the Dutch score yet another winning goal on a pk. To their credit at least Netherlands created a bit today against a club that didn't care.

Can't say I'm disappointed to say that this is likely the last time Robben is in a WC.

But yeah, betting on the Dutch would be a safe bet. Them being a team that never wins it all and relishes in as high a finish as possible. Brazil of course looking at this like its a disaster and wouldn't even have played the game if given a chance I suspect.

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07-12-2014, 11:02 PM
  #789
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Please be aware:

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Its like watching the Pittsburgh Penguins. Just a joke when they start to play the better teams. A lot of navel gazing to do for Brazil as a soccer nation. Gutless club with very little leadership and direction. The body language of every Brazilian player in the past 10goals is questioning hands up in the air wondering why somebody else didn't do something..

In the end a bunch of players who feel that talent alone can get them buy. Unfortunately Brazil isn't even matching talent these days. They've rarely been a particularly good system side.

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07-13-2014, 07:54 AM
  #790
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Still can't get over this. Taking sports a little too seriously. I bet the sun even rose the next day and everything..


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07-13-2014, 06:09 PM
  #791
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Um, Germany Win..

Great game.

Great opponent.

Glad it didn't go to kicks and was won proper.

Germany deserving champions and clearly the best side in the tournament.

Several chances to win and really took the game to Argentina for the most part in second half and domination in extra time.

Fail by CBC cutting out about 30mins earlier than ABC and not even showing the WC champs picture with the cup on the pitch and the parade around the pitch.

Germany Win, Argentina win in a way too as its one big statement being in Brazils own final and playing Germany hard and being completely worthy opponents unlike Brazil. CBC lose on the day. How do you as a national network commit so much resource to the biggest event on the planet and then tune out 20mins later when every network around the world and press are still rolling the film? To go to Ron Maclean and the Calgary Stampede. lolol but anyway. Champagne needs some attention..

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07-13-2014, 06:44 PM
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But yeah, betting on the Dutch would be a safe bet. Them being a team that never wins it all and relishes in as high a finish as possible. Brazil of course looking at this like its a disaster and wouldn't even have played the game if given a chance I suspect.
Funny though how everything I heard leading up to the match was how Brazil was excited to be playing in this game because it gave them an opportunity to try to make up for the horrible game against Germany and that the Dutch were complaining about having to play in it and talking about how this third place game should be abolished. Brazil, once again, wasn't ready to play this match and were outclassed throughout showing yet again that without Neymar they were a very ordinary squad. Certainly not elite. It's too bad Chile didn't beat Brazil in the round of 16. This would have made a much better final week of the tournament.

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07-13-2014, 06:50 PM
  #793
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Um, Germany Win..

Great game.

Great opponent.

Glad it didn't go to kicks and was won proper.

Germany deserving champions and clearly the best side in the tournament.

Several chances to win and really took the game to Argentina for the most part in second half and domination in extra time.

Fail by CBC cutting out about 30mins earlier than ABC and not even showing the WC champs picture with the cup on the pitch and the parade around the pitch.

Germany Win, Argentina win in a way too as its one big statement being in Brazils own final and playing Germany hard and being completely worthy opponents unlike Brazil. CBC lose on the day. How do you as a national network commit so much resource to the biggest event on the planet and then tune out 20mins later when every network around the world and press are still rolling the film? To go to Ron Maclean and the Calgary Stampede. lolol but anyway. Champagne needs some attention..
Germany very deserving of the win today. What a great game too. Two very classy teams throwing everything they had at each other with both of them actually trying to win in extra time instead of trying not to lose.

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07-13-2014, 07:06 PM
  #794
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Germany very deserving of the win today. What a great game too. Two very classy teams throwing everything they had at each other with both of them actually trying to win in extra time instead of trying not to lose.
Few times in a WC you see this much respect back and forth. Both teams play a sensible well coached game and have regard for the other.

Its almost as if the Germans had to orchestrate some controversy on the bench after the foul on Schweinsteiger to get the Germans pumped back up. There was almost too little animosity from Germany in this encounter.

Still, Germany had made several promising runs up and several times missed on crosses that were close. Germany probing throughout as the game wore on and Argentines were tiring overall. Germany had better pace, better bench, and fittingly I guess won that way. Shurrle should have had a goal or two already before he set up the winner. He was sent in home free in the 70th minute and then missed an easy finish later.
Mueller with a quiet game but well marked.

Ozil with by far his best game of the tournament.

Trouble for opponents is theres going to be a lot of German players continuing and a youth movement that keeps on giving. Bastian maybe even a swansong in the next WC but sure doesn't require that now. Nice to see Klose, Podolski, Schweini finally rewarded for years of elite german football. So many memories.

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07-13-2014, 10:35 PM
  #795
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Funny though how everything I heard leading up to the match was how Brazil was excited to be playing in this game because it gave them an opportunity to try to make up for the horrible game against Germany and that the Dutch were complaining about having to play in it and talking about how this third place game should be abolished. Brazil, once again, wasn't ready to play this match and were outclassed throughout showing yet again that without Neymar they were a very ordinary squad. Certainly not elite. It's too bad Chile didn't beat Brazil in the round of 16. This would have made a much better final week of the tournament.
Funny, I had been hoping for the same thing. Watched that game with a buddy on Bourbon Street and was cheering on the underdogs there.

Congrats though, to the Germans. Well played tourney and definitely deserved the top spot. Amid all the brutal diving evident in each and every match, I gained a hell of a lot of respect for the game and its players. An awful lot of skill on display, and the fitness required is remarkable.

Even among a few swan dives in today's final, there were a lot of hard tackles that proved that these guys aren't primadonnas all the time.

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07-14-2014, 12:57 AM
  #796
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That was incredibly boring. Sure tailed off towards the end of the tourney in terms of excitement. I hate that German team, like, hate them. **** 'em. From the coach on down. Don't get me wrong, I love Germany, Berlin is the best city in the world. But yeah, not pleased in the slightest they won.

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07-14-2014, 01:06 AM
  #797
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That was incredibly boring. Sure tailed off towards the end of the tourney in terms of excitement. I hate that German team, like, hate them. **** 'em. From the coach on down. Don't get me wrong, I love Germany, Berlin is the best city in the world. But yeah, not pleased in the slightest they won.
Why do you hate the team? Just curious.

They play very entertaining football and in nearly every game are bringing the honest game to the opponent and attacking.

I like Argentina but they were rightly criticized for hanging back in the knockout stages. Argentina only scored 8goals in the entire tournament. Only 2 goals scored in 4 knockout games. With Messi playing for them. Think about that a moment.

Germany pressed for most of this game against an Argentina side happy to have 8 men back clogging up things. Argentina's play all day was to try to catch Germany on the counter. Argentina played the cynical game trying to either get lucky or win in shootout.
Germany were trying to win the game and took it to Argentina especially in 2nd half and extra time.

Curious as well which team you like given you hate Germany.

not sure how you consider the game boring either. If you're a Germany or Argentina fan for sure it wasn't boring. It was a high quality match played in front of an appreciative audience and with Brazilians even happy with the game and level of play. If you want a brutal WC final talk about the 2010 match.


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07-14-2014, 08:13 AM
  #798
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Fantastic match. But man, fro an event of such magnitude, the trophy presentation is awful. Forcing players to climb the steps to receive the honours from the Pope...er FIFA dignitaries is a great symbol for that organization's arrogant, out of touch nature. The trophy is won on the field. It should be presented on the field.

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07-14-2014, 08:22 AM
  #799
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Fantastic match. But man, fro an event of such magnitude, the trophy presentation is awful. Forcing players to climb the steps to receive the honours from the Pope...er FIFA dignitaries is a great symbol for that organization's arrogant, out of touch nature. The trophy is won on the field. It should be presented on the field.
Interesting take and I agree. Very odd.

Odder still that several times during the tournament loons were allowed to jump out on the pitch and interrupt play and run and frolic out there for an extended period of time with 1 minute or greater seeming to be the average before they were taken down. Yesterday, during the biggest event on the planet AGAIN some idiot enters the pitch runs around and even looks like he's going to accost one of the German players, Howedes. It turns out that the guy is a comedian. What if he, or any of the countless others that evaded security and had free access on field with the players for long times had other intent?
Meanwhile, while the players had to cope with any crazy getting on the pitch in a country full of it, the dignitaries had cordons of security personnel up and down their aisle. Looked like a military regime in that section, but alas, not protecting the players on the pitch.

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07-14-2014, 08:39 AM
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That was incredibly boring. Sure tailed off towards the end of the tourney in terms of excitement. I hate that German team, like, hate them. **** 'em. From the coach on down. Don't get me wrong, I love Germany, Berlin is the best city in the world. But yeah, not pleased in the slightest they won.
German football is the pinnacle of class. They only managed to take 1 point in the Euro Cup in 2000, completely tore down their football/youth football program and revamped it, and have since become one of the most dominant teams in Europe.

They just won the WC, the first European team to do it in South America, without their best player playing a single match minute (Marco Reus), and they had to knock off some good teams to get to the final.

All this praise coming from an Englishman mind you.

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