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Therrien signed to 4 year extension

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Old
06-16-2014, 10:11 AM
  #301
Brainiac
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Originally Posted by Monctonscout View Post
Wether the extension is 1 year or 4 years is completely irrelevant. The habs have more money than they know what to do with, if they are to fire him, they will do it with 1 year or 4 years left.

Given what he's done the last 2 years, this is a complete non story except for those that carry their little agenda that he is a horrible coach destroying all our young players and running the team into the ground. Anybody with common sense sees Therrien did great work with what he's had so far...
Of course you're right about the firing part. He's gonna get canned as soon as the team struggles seriously.

He's got some results, nobody can deny that. But I'm still profoundly puzzled about his bench management, both in game and over the season. I think we could do even better if he managed his bench a little better.

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06-16-2014, 10:48 AM
  #302
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
And I can turn it around on you as well.

Give the Kings D to Therrien and watch them try stretch passes all night and ice the puck multiple times per night and see if you get past San Jose.
I guess this means that in your eyes our D is as good as the King's and it is only Therrien's fault if they don't perform as well.

I guess we never saw guys like Gorges and Emelin ice the puck before. Also, funny that you only refer to the defense corps, leaving out the forwards...very conveniently for you.

If anything, you should credit MT for having our forwards come closer to the D to help out with the neutral zone transition, but of course when Mike Richards is their 4th line center and DD or Plekanec is our 1st line center...well...no need to go further.

Unbelievable that people don't see that the Habs are still a long way from being a REAL contender, and can't recognize that we overachieved. Our Defense corp is average, our center line is average, we don't have a scorer in the top 40. Common people, this is a team that has some good pieces....but we are far from being a REAL contender.


Last edited by Forlando: 06-16-2014 at 10:54 AM.
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06-16-2014, 10:54 AM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Forlando View Post
I guess this means that in your eyes our D is as good as the King's and it is only Therrien's fault if they don't perform as well.

I guess we never saw guys like Gorges and Emelin ice the puck before. Also, funny that you only refer to the defense corps, leaving out the forwards...very conveniently for you.

If anything, you should credit MT of having our forwards come closer to the D to help out with the neutral zone transition, but of course when Mike Richards is their 4th line center and DD or Plekanec is our 1st line center...well...no need to g further.

[B]Unbelievable that people don't see that the Habs are still a long way from being a REAL contender, and can't recognize that we overachieved. Our Defense corp is average, our center line is average, we don't have a scorer in the top 40. Common people, this is a team that has some good pieces....but we are far from being a REAL contender.
The hardest things to acquire are star players at each position. We have a goalie and a defensemen that are top3 in their respective position and one of the best goal scoring wingers in the league. The holes left are not that hard to fill - a solid top4 d, a good winger or two. If we acquire a no1 center (or once Galchenyuk breaks up into one) we are a legit contender. Imho we are close, we should contend seriously soon, within two years.

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06-16-2014, 11:15 AM
  #304
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FFS I don't get all the hate MT gets. Unbelievable!

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06-16-2014, 12:09 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Habster33 View Post
FFS I don't get all the hate MT gets. Unbelievable!
My point exactly.

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06-16-2014, 01:24 PM
  #306
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I do wonder whether MT's contract extension is going to affect Bergevin's ability to attract UFAs.

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06-16-2014, 01:32 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by FisherKing View Post
I do wonder whether MT's contract extension is going to affect Bergevin's ability to attract UFAs.
Because he is such a hated coach by all of NHL's stars that they will go elsewhere.....riiiiight...

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06-16-2014, 01:55 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by Forlando View Post
I guess this means that in your eyes our D is as good as the King's and it is only Therrien's fault if they don't perform as well.
There's a gap between Kings-level possession and "worse than the Panthers", which is where the Habs are at. I'd like them to perform as well as the Rangers' at least.

The key difference here isn't personnel, though that factors in, it's puck support. When the Kings exit the zone, they rarely chip it out and rarely just throw it forward. They can do this because they have puck support: they have a short passing option in the defensive zone and can build their zone exits collectively, rather than asking the defenseman to select between a low-percentage stretch pass, giving away possession by chipping it out off the boards, or throwing it up the boards and hoping the opposition doesn't just intercept it. This is also how the Rangers would exit the zone versus the Habs; it would get them enough speed that they could then enter the zone in possession at the other end, leading to good things for them.

Montreal was one of the teams that iced the puck the most, not because they lack for puck movement skill (they have a couple really good ones), but because icing is the natural result of a failed stretch pass. The Rangers feasted on their zone exit attempts because they would continually intercept the "puck-up-the-boards" play and when the Habs tried to simply chip it to an "open" space, the Rangers just saw it coming and got there first.

Zone entries are another issues (dumping the puck in so much, especially on the power play, is a recipe for failure; carry-ins are literally twice as effective as dump-ins) but the zone exits are most glaring and are the primary cause of the Habs getting hemmed in so much, even against teams that nominally shouldn't have the talent to do so.

Those tactics, at the blueline and in the neutral zone, need to change if Montreal is to stop being a mediocre club outside the crease. I don't much care if it's Therrien doing the changing or some other coach. I just really doubt Therrien really recognizes the problem or its solution. He seems to change things up whenever things go poorly and doesn't seem to stop and wonder if things go poorly because the process needs changing or because the process is good and the execution is just going through a rough stretch.

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06-16-2014, 04:32 PM
  #309
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Mathman, I don't deny that you raise valid points, however:

1) I would be careful when using/interpreting stats. Stats say whatever you want them to say. Winnipeg, Carolina and the Islanders had better possesion numbers than Pittsburgh, Colorado, St.Louis and the Habs....are the first three better teams?

2) One of the reasons why the Kings are good in possesion and transition (in and out) is that they are very strong along the boards...do the Habs have the horses to play that kind of game?...or can we all agree that we have too many small/soft players for that?

Just a thought.

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06-16-2014, 05:02 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by Forlando View Post
1) I would be careful when using/interpreting stats. Stats say whatever you want them to say. Winnipeg, Carolina and the Islanders had better possesion numbers than Pittsburgh, Colorado, St.Louis and the Habs....are the first three better teams?
St-Louis is the seventh-best possession club in the league. I don't know why you list them, they're a very strong club.

Pittsburgh is not that great as a team. People think they're a powerhouse, but they're not. They have a couple great players, but their depth is terrible and with Letang out their blueline was pretty thin, too. Despite this, they're not bad, they're middling -- they were better than Florida, Carolina and Winnipeg, so again, not sure why you bring them up. They were aces on special teams, which is how they won their (weak) division; we'll see if they can keep that up next year.

Colorado isn't actually very good, and basically rode goaltending -- they're a more extreme case of what the Habs did. That may change in the short term, given their young forward talent, but, well, just look at that blueline. Andre Benoit plays over 20 minutes a night, and he couldn't get regular minutes on the Habs OR the Sens.

As for the Habs, well, based on roster talent they should be better than the Islanders and Winnipeg, but in practice they weren't and the real difference was Price. I don't think Montreal can keep relying on that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Forlando View Post
2) One of the reasons why the Kings are good in possesion and transition (in and out) is that they are very strong along the boards...do the Habs have the horses to play that kind of game?...or can we all agree that we have too many small/soft players for that?
Not one bit. Size has been a red herring for years. Chicago is relatively "small" and yet they can play a possession game on the level of the Kings. The Habs' issues have little to do with acquiring or retaining the puck, their problem is being ineffectual once they have it.

You could see against the Rangers that if they successfully collected a dump-in they could get some cycling going. The 67-51-11 line, despite having two very small players, was especially good at it. Likewise, they were quite effective on the forecheck when they were able to establish it; at their best they can cause trouble for opposing zone exits and force turnovers.

The problem was that dumping the puck in is not as effective as carrying it in (successfully) -- by dumping it in you forego a shot off the rush and you have a very good chance of not being able to regain possession.

The reason you see Montreal losing so many board battles is because how often they throw it up the boards at, essentially, nobody, and then the opposing player gets there first and wins that board battle more often than not (if there's a board battle in the first place, often the opponent will just maintain possession by passing the puck away). The Habs do have talent and skill; they can cycle in the offensive zone if they manage to get possession, and they can score off the rush if they get one, and they're decent in zone coverage and can regain the puck in the defensive zone. It's just appalling how much, once they have the puck, they end up giving it back or simply icing it.

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06-16-2014, 05:47 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by MathMan View Post
St-Louis is the seventh-best possession club in the league. I don't know why you list them, they're a very strong club.
If we are talking posession I belive we should look at Fenwick for and St.Louis sits on the 21st spot league wide (three behind the habs)...they are indeed a strong team on D and that is why their Fenwick for % is 7th, which is what I believe you are looking at...but no sure why you would consider defense of the opposite team if we are talking strictly puck posession.

Please note that I said small or soft players (small/soft), patches is not small nor soft, gally is small but tough as nails.

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06-16-2014, 06:13 PM
  #312
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Gaston Therrien said:"have the young guys progressed under MT? My answer is yes".

Not sure about that.

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06-16-2014, 07:01 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Kimota View Post
Gaston Therrien said:"have the young guys progressed under MT? My answer is yes".

Not sure about that.
I guess PK winning the Norris and Patches scoring 40 goals is not progress and if it is, MT had absolutely no influence on that.

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06-16-2014, 07:17 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by Forlando View Post
If we are talking posession I belive we should look at Fenwick for and St.Louis sits on the 21st spot league wide (three behind the habs)...they are indeed a strong team on D and that is why their Fenwick for % is 7th, which is what I believe you are looking at...but no sure why you would consider defense of the opposite team if we are talking strictly puck posession.
Huh? Fenwick % measures the percentage of fenwick events that were in your favour during the game.

If you have the puck the other team isn't shooting at you. What matters is you outshoot and outchance the other team, doesn't matter if you do that by outshooting 10-5 or 20-10 every game.

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06-16-2014, 07:18 PM
  #315
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So glad the fans aren't the GM of this team. Good resigning.

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06-16-2014, 07:19 PM
  #316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forlando View Post
I guess PK winning the Norris and Patches scoring 40 goals is not progress and if it is, MT had absolutely no influence on that.
+ Bournival and the Gallys playing well. Loved Galchenyuk game in the playoffs and Beaulieu did well too.

Not sure i have ever seen a Habs coach in the 2000s that good with young forwards.

Gaston is usually high on something but he was right on that part.

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06-16-2014, 07:22 PM
  #317
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People basing their comments regarding how good Therrien is by just looking at his record will get a rude awakening within the next two years. If you honestly watch about 60-80 habs games a year and actually pay attention, you wouldn't be saying how great of a coach Therrien is , and how he doesn't deserve the hate. Maybe he doesn't deserve all of the hate, but he does deserve the majority of it.

Don't let a conference finals appearance fool you into forgetting all of his boneheaded decisions, questionable lineups, bad player usage, player favouritism, and lack of in-game adjustments that went down throughout the regular season. If not for Price, our horrible break out and defensive zone would have been the death of this team way before it caught up with us in the playoffs.

I would have waited until after next season to make the decision on Therrien. I am far from convinced that he is the coach who will bring this team a cup. But hey, that's just my opinion.

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06-16-2014, 07:34 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by Noob616 View Post
Huh? Fenwick % measures the percentage of fenwick events that were in your favour during the game.
I might be wrong, but I insist, if we are talking about effective possession then we are talking about Fenwick for. If I understand correctly Fenwick for % is the relation between your Fenwick events and those of the opposition, but the Fenwick events of your opposition don't necessarily translate to a team being good at posession, i.e St. Louis...all this if you "believe" in advanced stats.

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06-16-2014, 07:36 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by Pricenyuk View Post
People basing their comments regarding how good Therrien is by just looking at his record will get a rude awakening within the next two years. If you honestly watch about 60-80 habs games a year and actually pay attention, you wouldn't be saying how great of a coach Therrien is , and how he doesn't deserve the hate. Maybe he doesn't deserve all of the hate, but he does deserve the majority of it.

Don't let a conference finals appearance fool you into forgetting all of his boneheaded decisions, questionable lineups, bad player usage, player favouritism, and lack of in-game adjustments that went down throughout the regular season. If not for Price, our horrible break out and defensive zone would have been the death of this team way before it caught up with us in the playoffs.

I would have waited until after next season to make the decision on Therrien. I am far from convinced that he is the coach who will bring this team a cup. But hey, that's just my opinion.
So if we don't look at the team record what should we look at? Fashion style? quality of jokes? c'mon.

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06-16-2014, 07:38 PM
  #320
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Everyone just uses MT to hate on, but in reality look at what he has done in the past 2 years.

2013 - Got us to lead our division, but yes it wasn't a good series vs the Sens

2014 - Didn't lead the group, but clinched at a great time and had a great run to the Conference Finals

Obviously there was questionable things he did, but with every coach, you can't like everything they do.

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06-16-2014, 07:47 PM
  #321
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Forlando View Post
So if we don't look at the team record what should we look at? Fashion style? quality of jokes? c'mon.
Player performance? Player development? Not relying on goaltending to steal you about 30 points? Having a good system? The team won in spite of Therrien's misuse and poor decisions. That luck wont continue forever, especially when our overused veterans are burnt out, and our youth is sitting there without the tools they need to take over because the coach refused to develop them properly. We're looking to build a team that can win for 5+ years, not one that relies on a couple of players and fortunate bounces.

But yes, a building team's record is all that matters

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06-16-2014, 07:51 PM
  #322
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This thread reminds me of 2010 when everyone was saying Martin was a good coach.

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06-16-2014, 08:22 PM
  #323
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Originally Posted by Pricenyuk View Post
Player performance? Player development? Not relying on goaltending to steal you about 30 points? Having a good system? The team won in spite of Therrien's misuse and poor decisions. That luck wont continue forever, especially when our overused veterans are burnt out, and our youth is sitting there without the tools they need to take over because the coach refused to develop them properly. We're looking to build a team that can win for 5+ years, not one that relies on a couple of players and fortunate bounces.

But yes, a building team's record is all that matters
See bold print, yes, you are correct, that is all that matters. Coaches don't win they are fired.

Players have good years and bad years, who cares, as long as the team is winning, only on here does it matter if players aren't developing, they develop or get canned, also who cares, there are others that will come along and succeed or not.

Wow, you mean goalies steal points, well that has never happened before has it, and they aren't part of the team either are they?

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06-16-2014, 08:24 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by Team_Spirit View Post
+ Bournival and the Gallys playing well. Loved Galchenyuk game in the playoffs and Beaulieu did well too.

Not sure i have ever seen a Habs coach in the 2000s that good with young forwards.

Gaston is usually high on something but he was right on that part.
When's the last time you saw a coach here have a Norris potential Dman, a 3rd overall pick center, and a pure goal scorer like Max?

PK was better utilized under Martin. Max started blossoming under Martin as well playing next to Gomez-Gio. He had his highest point total under Martin-RC as well.
Before then, our kids were nowhere near as good as this current group.

I mean really, are you suggesting that PK wouldn't have won the Norris or be as good as he is if it weren't for Therrien?? Likewise for Max despite him having a career season under a different coach?
Gallagher played amazing from game 1. He was being talked about before Therrien was even hired.
Can you even tell me one thing Therrien thought those guys? Did you see them improve much of anything in their game that you can really attribute to Therrien?

That's not necessarily a knock on Therrien, we know that he's not a coach known for his strong strategies and smart understanding of the game. He's known as a demanding coach who's main focus is work ethic. It doesn't matter if he's got the worst team, his guys will play hard and give their full effort. That's why if he feels like his team really isn't putting in the effort, and are down by one, he won't even pull his goalie out.

So, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to give much credit to a coach for how kids develop when he's not known to be a teacher type of coach.

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06-16-2014, 08:29 PM
  #325
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Carbonneau finished first and was a god awful coach.

Pacioretty scored 33 under Cunneyworth, it was his best season up until last year. Cunneyworth was brutal as a headcoach.

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