HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > The History of Hockey
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Justin Williams: The Conn Smythe winner least likely to get into the HHOF?

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-14-2014, 04:39 PM
  #1
Big Phil
Registered User
 
Big Phil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 20,094
vCash: 500
Justin Williams: The Conn Smythe winner least likely to get into the HHOF?

As it stands now, the Conn Smythe has the following winners eligible for the HHOF who are NOT in there:

Roger Crozier, Reggie Leach, Butch Goring, Ron Hextall, Bill Ranford, Claude Lemieux, Mike Vernon.

Conn Smythe winners who've won but are still either playing or not eligible for the HHOF yet that won't make it in:

J-S Giguere, Brad Richards, Cam Ward, Tim Thomas, Justin Williams.

Alright, I am just relying on the fact that Zetterberg, Malkin, Toews, Quick and Kane get in there on their own when the dust is settled. Thomas is a bit of a wild card, he certainly can have a case both ways.


But either way despite the career that 3-time Cup winner Williams has had he will not get into the HHOF. He contributed very much in his three Cup wins, but he won't be in there. The question is, do you consider him to have the least career value out of these players?

Big Phil is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-14-2014, 04:43 PM
  #2
Sprague Cleghorn
User Registered
 
Sprague Cleghorn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: Edmonton, KY
Country: Orkney Islands
Posts: 1,529
vCash: 214
I'd say Cam Ward has the least career value. The only thing he has is that great run in 06, and the rest of his career is pretty meh.

At least Williams has three great Cup runs, and has the record for most Game 7 points.

Sprague Cleghorn is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-14-2014, 04:47 PM
  #3
vadim sharifijanov
Rrbata
 
vadim sharifijanov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 10,533
vCash: 500
i'm trying to think of a historical comparison to williams. claude lemieux and goring both had led their teams in scoring, ranford had a two year peak where he was arguably the best money goalie in the world (90, 91), and thomas obviously had a ridiculous peak too. even a guy like dick duff was a mid-season all-star in his career, tikkanen was selke-calibre, nieuwendyk was historically good on the PP (i.e., one transcendent skill) and ended up with great career numbers.

i feel like williams is chris drury with a smythe and more cups, or maybe mario tremblay if tremblay played out of his mind for one run?

vadim sharifijanov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-14-2014, 04:50 PM
  #4
Grounded
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Country: Canada
Posts: 201
vCash: 500
It's definitely between Williams and Cam Ward. I would probably give the honour to Williams on the ground that he's really never been considered a "star," while Ward, rightly or wrongly, had legit star status for some time during and after his big run. Either way, neither is getting in. But I guess that's the nature of the Conn Smythe Trophy -- the playoffs are a short battle, and sometimes a player you might not expect to fight his way to the top of the pile is able to do so.


Last edited by Grounded: 06-15-2014 at 06:31 PM.
Grounded is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-14-2014, 10:19 PM
  #5
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,515
vCash: 500
JS J-S Giguere, Cam Ward, Tim Thomas are probably the contenders for this title but to be fair to Williams his coring totals do get a bit diminished in the LA system a bit.

That being said my Conn Smythe ballot (admit it we all have one) would have been Kopitar, Doughty, Williams, Carter, Quick.

Lundqvuist also was in the mix after the first 2 Kings for me.

Hardyvan123 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-14-2014, 11:54 PM
  #6
jumptheshark
the burn out
 
jumptheshark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: hf retirement home
Country: United Nations
Posts: 57,216
vCash: 73
Williams is nowhere near getting into the hall of fame--one reason why this thread was locked on another board

jumptheshark is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2014, 01:51 AM
  #7
Mike Farkas
Hockey's Future Staff
Grace Personified
 
Mike Farkas's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 5,322
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
JS J-S Giguere, Cam Ward, Tim Thomas are probably the contenders for this title but to be fair to Williams his coring totals do get a bit diminished in the LA system a bit.

That being said my Conn Smythe ballot (admit it we all have one) would have been Kopitar, Doughty, Williams, Carter, Quick.

Lundqvuist also was in the mix after the first 2 Kings for me.
Yup. I thought it was a small reach for Williams. I had Doughty/Kopitar and then a group of Carter/Williams/Lundqvist below that. Kopitar was flat out better than Williams 200 feet every game and managed the puck a lot better (Williams had a lot of turnovers it felt like throughout)...it's not a robbery, but it's pretty iffy...

Mike Farkas is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2014, 01:59 AM
  #8
Wrath
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,384
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
JS J-S Giguere, Cam Ward, Tim Thomas are probably the contenders for this title but to be fair to Williams his coring totals do get a bit diminished in the LA system a bit.

That being said my Conn Smythe ballot (admit it we all have one) would have been Kopitar, Doughty, Williams, Carter, Quick.

Lundqvuist also was in the mix after the first 2 Kings for me.
I think at the least Thomas has a far more likely chance to make the HHOF than Williams.

Williams peaked at 76 points in a season, is never going to reach 1000 points, nor even 500 assists or 500 goals unless he has god-like longevity, and his playoff stats sans this season are nowhere near HHOF caliber.

Tim Thomas has won the Vezina twice, been named first team all star twice, and actually has a handful of decent regular season and postseason performances outside of his smythe/cup year.

Wrath is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2014, 02:03 AM
  #9
Ishdul
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Country: Lithuania
Posts: 2,858
vCash: 500
I should mention that Justin Williams is one of the players frequently touted as a secret star for many years now. His possession numbers have been absurdly good for a long, long time, often followed with similar numbers for his GF%, and he was a great player as early as 2005-2006, while now being a very important part of 3 Cup teams in a time where no else has. He's not good enough offensively to get top 10 finishes, and he's not going to get recognized as a Selke candidate, but he's still great in both ends and enormously valuable.

He's not going to make the Hall of Fame but he's a much, much better player with a much, much better career than say Ward and I'd argue many other players.

Ishdul is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2014, 02:17 AM
  #10
BROOKLYnKNIGHTS
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 5,716
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Phil View Post
As it stands now, the Conn Smythe has the following winners eligible for the HHOF who are NOT in there:

Roger Crozier, Reggie Leach, Butch Goring, Ron Hextall, Bill Ranford, Claude Lemieux, Mike Vernon.

Conn Smythe winners who've won but are still either playing or not eligible for the HHOF yet that won't make it in:

J-S Giguere, Brad Richards, Cam Ward, Tim Thomas, Justin Williams.

Alright, I am just relying on the fact that Zetterberg, Malkin, Toews, Quick and Kane get in there on their own when the dust is settled. Thomas is a bit of a wild card, he certainly can have a case both ways.


But either way despite the career that 3-time Cup winner Williams has had he will not get into the HHOF. He contributed very much in his three Cup wins, but he won't be in there. The question is, do you consider him to have the least career value out of these players?
Ward has the least. Hextall value is low.
Claude is so darn underated it upsets me.

BROOKLYnKNIGHTS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2014, 03:28 AM
  #11
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,443
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sprague Cleghorn View Post
I'd say Cam Ward has the least career value. The only thing he has is that great run in 06, and the rest of his career is pretty meh.

At least Williams has three great Cup runs, and has the record for most Game 7 points.
Ward hasn't been "meh". He's been known as anywhere from the 6th to 15th best starting goalie in the league for 8 seasons following that Smythe.

Is that better than being an above average shotgun riding scoring line forward? I'm guessing yes. Others may disagree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i'm trying to think of a historical comparison to williams. claude lemieux and goring both had led their teams in scoring, ranford had a two year peak where he was arguably the best money goalie in the world (90, 91), and thomas obviously had a ridiculous peak too. even a guy like dick duff was a mid-season all-star in his career, tikkanen was selke-calibre, nieuwendyk was historically good on the PP (i.e., one transcendent skill) and ended up with great career numbers.

i feel like williams is chris drury with a smythe and more cups, or maybe mario tremblay if tremblay played out of his mind for one run?
Chris Drury is still a good deal ahead of Williams. Better point scorer over more games, and more of his points were goals. Considerably better defensively (was a selke finalist) and was captain of two franchises. Known as a very clutch player his whole career. Basically the same career playoff PPG over 20 more games at this time. Played the passenger like Williams has done so well, but was also the catalyst for his line a few times.

this is a totally arbitrary cutoff, but Williams has just four seasons with 45+ points and Drury has nine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
Yup. I thought it was a small reach for Williams. I had Doughty/Kopitar and then a group of Carter/Williams/Lundqvist below that. Kopitar was flat out better than Williams 200 feet every game and managed the puck a lot better (Williams had a lot of turnovers it felt like throughout)...it's not a robbery, but it's pretty iffy...
This is what I said! But those who read that in the ATD chat thread don't agree.


Last edited by seventieslord: 06-15-2014 at 04:46 AM.
seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2014, 04:12 AM
  #12
Terry Yake
Registered User
 
Terry Yake's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2013
Country: United States
Posts: 3,578
vCash: 500
i'd say ward is #1 in terms of the conn smythe winner with the smallest chance of getting into the HOF with jiggy at #2. i'd put williams 3rd

Terry Yake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2014, 04:28 AM
  #13
begbeee
Registered User
 
begbeee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Slovakia
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,031
vCash: 500
I think the best historical comparision to Williams is C. Lemieux, but still he is still a tier above him.
Just Justin is so money like Claude compared to regular season and 3 SCs is a helluva performance post-lockout. Brodeur aside as mainly the previous generation player, as it stands now in terms of playoff winners it's 1. Williams 2. Hossa 3. the rest. I expect to change this list pretty soon as I expect LA or Chicago will land with another Cup(s), what would make some franchise players playoff beasts historically.

begbeee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2014, 04:42 AM
  #14
TAnnala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Country: Finland
Posts: 13,333
vCash: 50
Williams has one of the weakest resume's of all Conn Smythe winners.

I think it is pretty obvious that Williams will not sniff the Hall. But for the sake of it, let's assume he continues his RS performance as his current career suggests and he lands two more cups with the Kings. While being one of the key contributors in the playoffs for it. Finishing top-3 in points and as a viable Conn Smythe candidate for both Cup's. I know that is extremely unlikely scenario. But if that happens, is there any chance that he sees the Hall?

TAnnala is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2014, 04:55 AM
  #15
seventieslord
Moderator
 
seventieslord's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Regina, SK
Country: Canada
Posts: 25,443
vCash: 500
Is Williams suddenly the winner of this generation because he has three cups? It's not like he's the post-lockout leader in playoff GP, or even close. He's 16th with 98. Mike Richards leads with 124. Richards has two cups and also captained a team to a final in which he was more integral than Williams was (yes, even this season). He's a better "winner" (even though I hate defining players this way). Then you have Hossa with two cups in four finals. And can you really call him more of a winner than guys like Toews, Kane and Keith? If you are simply cup counting, yes, he has the most in the last decade. If we say a win is a win, he's in the mix, but many others are right there with him or ahead. And if we are looking at total offensive and defensive contributions made in this period, he's maybe top-30, with goalies and defensemen included.

seventieslord is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2014, 05:24 AM
  #16
begbeee
Registered User
 
begbeee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Slovakia
Country: Slovakia
Posts: 4,031
vCash: 500
Uhm, seventieslord, you can't such easily count him off. In fact, he was integral part of a team in all his victories, regular season or playoffs. He was TOP5 player in each of those seasons, sometimes arguably TOP3.
And to Mike Richards, their contribution to the win in this season is uncomparable, as one has Conn Smythe and other one played 4th line. In the previous win, they offensive output is flat out the same, give a nod to Richard if you want for his defensive play. Finally Williams in Carolina's run was slightly worse than Richard in Flyers' one, but we are counting the cups here and as far as I know, Williams was no coattail at all.

begbeee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2014, 10:53 AM
  #17
JaysCyYoung
Registered User
 
JaysCyYoung's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: York Region
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,783
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grounded View Post
It's definitely between Williams and Cam Ward. I would probably give the honour to Williams on the ground that he's really never been considered a "star," while Ward, rightly or wrongful, had legit star status for some time during and after his big run. Either way, neither is getting in. But I guess that's the nature of the Conn Smythe Trophy -- the playoffs are a short battle, and sometimes a player you might not expect to fight his way to the top of the pile is able to do so.
I don't really think Ward ever had star status after that run. I think most people rightly believed that he was a pretty marginal Conn Smythe choice (Pronger should have clearly won in 2006 win or lose) and his sub-standard career following that win, beyond one or two seasons as a slightly average-average plus goaltender, seems to illustrate that sentiment was correct.

Williams will probably end his career with over 300 goals and close to 700 points and already has three very strong post-season runs in each of his three Stanley Cup victories. There's no way that he's compiled the least career value to date IMO.

JaysCyYoung is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2014, 11:11 AM
  #18
Epsilon
#TeamHolland
 
Epsilon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Florence, SC
Posts: 37,639
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Is Williams suddenly the winner of this generation because he has three cups? It's not like he's the post-lockout leader in playoff GP, or even close. He's 16th with 98. Mike Richards leads with 124. Richards has two cups and also captained a team to a final in which he was more integral than Williams was (yes, even this season). He's a better "winner" (even though I hate defining players this way). Then you have Hossa with two cups in four finals. And can you really call him more of a winner than guys like Toews, Kane and Keith? If you are simply cup counting, yes, he has the most in the last decade. If we say a win is a win, he's in the mix, but many others are right there with him or ahead. And if we are looking at total offensive and defensive contributions made in this period, he's maybe top-30, with goalies and defensemen included.
You have to be making way too big of a deal out of the captaincy in order to claim that.

Epsilon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2014, 11:20 AM
  #19
Ret
Allegedly Boychuk
 
Ret's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: North York, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 5,087
vCash: 500
I'd say Ward has the smallest chance of getting in, followed by Williams. Giguere and Richards likely won't make it but Thomas has a serious case.

Ret is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2014, 11:52 AM
  #20
TheDevilMadeMe
Global Moderator
 
TheDevilMadeMe's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Brooklyn
Country: United States
Posts: 41,937
vCash: 500
I realize H-R's adjusted points have their issues but.....


Top seasons in adjusted points Reggie Leach: 79, 68, 64, 54, 46, 45, 44, 41, 34 33, 32, 26
Top seasons in adjusted points Claude Lemieux: 68, 65, 61, 60, 58, 51, 51, 46, 45, 42, 42, 40, 32, 29, 28
Top seasons in adjusted points Justin Williams: 74, 69, 66, 62, 61, 51, 47, 46, 32, 31, 27, 27

I'm not at all convinced that Reggie Leach had a better career than Justin Williams, despite his career year in 75-76, especially considering who his linemate was. As for Claude Lemieux, he had more good seasons than Williams, at least.

TheDevilMadeMe is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2014, 12:08 PM
  #21
Doomsday Device
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Gary Coleman's Finishing School for Doomsday Devices
Posts: 2,470
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Ward hasn't been "meh". He's been known as anywhere from the 6th to 15th best starting goalie in the league for 8 seasons following that Smythe.
Ward's has the 39th best save percentage of any goaltender with at least a 100 games played since the lockout started. That's a pretty "meh" career so far.

Doomsday Device is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2014, 12:59 PM
  #22
Brewster
Registered User
 
Brewster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 920
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by vadim sharifijanov View Post
i'm trying to think of a historical comparison to williams. claude lemieux and goring both had led their teams in scoring, ranford had a two year peak where he was arguably the best money goalie in the world (90, 91), and thomas obviously had a ridiculous peak too. even a guy like dick duff was a mid-season all-star in his career, tikkanen was selke-calibre, nieuwendyk was historically good on the PP (i.e., one transcendent skill) and ended up with great career numbers.

i feel like williams is chris drury with a smythe and more cups, or maybe mario tremblay if tremblay played out of his mind for one run?
I've seen him refered to as a NHL version of Robert Horry, which IMO fits the bill.

Brewster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2014, 01:05 PM
  #23
Sentinel
Registered User
 
Sentinel's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: New Jersey
Country: United States
Posts: 3,302
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Is that better than being an above average shotgun riding scoring line forward? I'm guessing yes.
You must really hate Williams. Game 7 scoring record + CS = hardly "riding shotgun."

Quote:
Chris Drury... Known as a very clutch player his whole career.
Don't know what Drury were you watching but here in New York he was the opposite of a clutch player.

I'd compare Williams to Claude. If he gets a couple more Cups and another CS, he may have a chance.

Sentinel is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2014, 01:08 PM
  #24
TAnnala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Country: Finland
Posts: 13,333
vCash: 50
If Williams gets two more cups and one more Smythe (while being a key contributor to the other cup) I could see someone making a case. The thing is, how rare it is for players of Williams caliber to get two Smythe's?

Who is the 2x Smythe winner that compares to Williams?

TAnnala is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
06-15-2014, 01:10 PM
  #25
TAnnala
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Oulu
Country: Finland
Posts: 13,333
vCash: 50
Just for the reference, here are the Conn Smythe winners who have taken the trophy more than once.

Orr
Parent
Gretzky
Lemieux
Roy

What are the chances that Williams joins that club? If he does, I am more than willing to take my words back. It would definitely give his Hall of Fame case credibility. I just don't expect it to happen.

TAnnala is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:12 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2015, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2015 All Rights Reserved.