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06-16-2014, 04:35 PM
  #26
Raspewtin
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Originally Posted by Zil View Post
I think the majority opinion is that a Staal package for ROR plus re-signing Stralman is the ideal core of the offseason. Throw in a Zucc extension, bridge contracts for Kreider and Moore, qualify Brassard, bring back D. Moore, add some veteran depth, slot in a kid or two (Allen? Lindberg? Haggerty?), and we're ready to roll.
As much as I'd like this plan, Stralman probably still priced himself of this team.

He has to take under 4 million, which I see no reason as to why he would.

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06-16-2014, 04:45 PM
  #27
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The problem is that Staal is a great 1v1/in the d-zone defenseman. If I see somebody rushing up the wing into our zone and McD's not on the ice, I want Staal in that position to break up the play, because he always does (unless he plays 100 games- dude was gassed in the finals). Stralman is better in the offensive zone-- not necessarily offensively, but he can control the puck better than Marc does.

Together they're a fantastic pairing. Staal rarely gets beat in his own zone and Stralman is great at keeping plays alive in the neutral/offensive zone.

Klein looked like a different player in MTL and some of the LAK series. He was more confident with the puck. However, he's not as good as Staal is in the D zone and not on Stralsy's level everywhere else, and he's making almost 3 million dollars.

I think you can absolutely put 30 million in a top 4 D, when that top 4 D does what our top 4 D does.

Having Staal-Stralman and Moore-Diaz/cheap UFA vet is a lot better than having Staal-Klein, Moore-whoever.

Another issue is John Moore. He's not a good hockey player. Can he become one? In his first 30 games here, he went against weak competition and annihilated it. In his next 80, he went against weak competition and was annihilated. Who is the real John Moore and how far can he progress?

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06-16-2014, 04:47 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by offdacrossbar View Post
staal is that guy.

he will bring back a decent return. still has value. and what he brings back may well improve us more than hurt us. defensively we are pretty deep.

we have a true 1d in mcd. cant have 3 #1 d

staal has history of injury.

we already re upped girardi and hes our true #2.

stralman can play multiple roles- inc add some offense for this team and will be more affordable than staal.

klein adds value based on his ability to move up and down and play that steady defensive role that staal brought. he can play more minutes easily.

The upside about keeping Stralman instead of staal is the fact that Allen can slot into 2nd pair minutes (if he's able to?) by being supported by Stralman... Klein could also take that pairing and you could move Stralman down to Moore's pairing. That allows Allen to grow into those minutes, and also frees up a net total of $4M in cap space:

Staal: $4M

Allen: $925k
Klein: $2.9M
Stralman (new contract): $4M
Moore (New Contract): $1.5M


"swapping" Staal for Stralman nets you $1.7M in cap space, so you end up with just under $10M mere invested in the bottom 4 dmen...

That's ****ing solid right there. $20M tied up in the ENTIRE D corps, and this is still what I'd consider top 7 in the league... What we then give up on Defense allows us to net an upgrade on Forward (though I do not know what)...

I'd hope ROR could be in the cards... If not him, then I'd look towards Nazim Kadri... if we can't make the trade, you go after Grabovski.

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06-16-2014, 04:50 PM
  #29
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
The problem is that Staal is a great 1v1/in the d-zone defenseman. If I see somebody rushing up the wing into our zone and McD's not on the ice, I want Staal in that position to break up the play, because he always does (unless he plays 100 games- dude was gassed in the finals). Stralman is better in the offensive zone-- not necessarily offensively, but he can control the puck better than Marc does.

Together they're a fantastic pairing. Staal rarely gets beat in his own zone and Stralman is great at keeping plays alive in the neutral/offensive zone.

Klein looked like a different player in MTL and some of the LAK series. He was more confident with the puck. However, he's not as good as Staal is in the D zone and not on Stralsy's level everywhere else, and he's making almost 3 million dollars.

I think you can absolutely put 30 million in a top 4 D, when that top 4 D does what our top 4 D does.

Having Staal-Stralman and Moore-Diaz/cheap UFA vet is a lot better than having Staal-Klein, Moore-whoever.

Another issue is John Moore. He's not a good hockey player. Can he become one? In his first 30 games here, he went against weak competition and annihilated it. In his next 80, he went against weak competition and was annihilated. Who is the real John Moore and how far can he progress?
I give Moore a pass because he's only 23, and was brought up in a horrific farm system... McIlrath is only 22, and he's still taking time to develop, probably another year... so I give Moore till he is 24 before giving up on him, but no longer. The signs should show at that point what kind of player he actually is.

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06-16-2014, 05:00 PM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zil View Post
I think the majority opinion is that a Staal package for ROR plus re-signing Stralman is the ideal core of the offseason. Throw in a Zucc extension, bridge contracts for Kreider and Moore, qualify Brassard, bring back D. Moore, add some veteran depth, slot in a kid or two (Allen? Lindberg? Haggerty?), and we're ready to roll.
100% on board with this.

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06-16-2014, 05:15 PM
  #31
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I don't think Klein can consistently play 2nd pair minutes. I don't think he's fast enough to keep up with the system AV wants to play. If it's either/or I'm fine with trading him and keeping Stralman.

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06-16-2014, 05:17 PM
  #32
Zil
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Originally Posted by Raspewtin View Post
As much as I'd like this plan, Stralman probably still priced himself of this team.

He has to take under 4 million, which I see no reason as to why he would.
I think it all fits if they prioritize Stralman over Boyle. Also, keep in mind that as expensive as Stralman might be, it's cheaper than extending Staal would be. He's not taking a pay cut from the $5.45 million he's making this year in actual salary. That means extending him would require a Girardi contract.

I gave everyone pretty generous raises and flipped Staal, Miller, and Dorsett for O'Reilly. Behold:

CAPGEEK.COM ARMCHAIR GM ROSTER
Zil's Revised Ranger Roster
FORWARDS
Carl Hagelin ($2.250m) / Ryan O'Reilly ($6.500m) / Rick Nash ($7.800m)
Chris Kreider ($2.250m) / Derek Stepan ($3.075m) / Martin St. Louis ($5.625m)
Benoit Pouliot ($1.800m) / Derick Brassard ($3.700m) / Mats Zuccarello ($4.200m)
Oscar Lindberg ($0.675m) / Dominic Moore ($1.300m) / Jesper Fast ($0.805m)
Daniel Carcillo ($0.900m) /
DEFENSEMEN
Ryan McDonagh ($4.700m) / Dan Girardi ($5.500m)
John Moore ($1.500m) / Anton Stralman ($4.200m)
Conor Allen ($0.925m) / Kevin Klein ($2.900m)
Justin Falk ($1.024m) /
GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($8.500m)
Cameron Talbot ($0.563m)
BUYOUTS
Wade Redden ($0.000m)
Brad Richards ($0.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(estimations for 2014-15)
SALARY CAP: $71,100,000; CAP PAYROLL: $70,691,250; BONUSES: $1,030,000
CAP SPACE (22-man roster): $408,750

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06-16-2014, 05:25 PM
  #33
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I really doubt John Moore is ready for 2nd pair minutes either. Even with Klein there were so many games where he looked like a deer in the headlights.

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06-16-2014, 05:40 PM
  #34
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I would rather we keep Klein until his amazing contract expires.
He's off the block unless some team overpays.

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06-16-2014, 05:45 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by Brooklyn Ranger View Post
I really doubt John Moore is ready for 2nd pair minutes either. Even with Klein there were so many games where he looked like a deer in the headlights.
The upgrade from Richards to O'Reilly is worth it. People forget that while Staal has his dominant stretches, he also has his terrible ones. Stepping in for 2013-14 Marc Staal is a tall task, but it's not the same thing as stepping in for 2010-11 Marc Staal.

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I would rather we keep Klein until his amazing contract expires.
He's off the block unless some team overpays.
A $2.9 million cap hit for four more years of solid, not great third pairing play doesn't qualify as amazing. The people under the delusion that Klein can step in for Stralman are in for a rude awakening should that scenario actually happen.

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06-16-2014, 05:48 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by Zil View Post
The upgrade from Richards to O'Reilly is worth it. People forget that while Staal has his dominant stretches, he also has his terrible ones. Stepping in for 2013-14 Marc Staal is a tall task, but it's not the same thing as stepping in for 2010-11 Marc Staal.
I actually think Allen could do well replacing Staal, but I know it's always a risk to ask a rookie to step right into the 2nd pair and replace a Marc Staal.

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06-16-2014, 05:50 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by Rangerfan4life90 View Post
I actually think Allen could do well replacing Staal, but I know it's always a risk to ask a rookie to step right into the 2nd pair and replace a Marc Staal.
I was going to say that. Allen probably overtakes Moore by mid-season. Skjei could be stepping in soon afterward as well. Our future on the left side is McDonagh-Skjei-Allen/Bodie. It's even more of a reason why a Staal extension is a bad idea.

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06-16-2014, 07:26 PM
  #38
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Moore is not as bad a player as some are making out. He's a lot better defender than Del Zotto was.

Keeping Stralman depends on Anton agreeing to a more reasonable deal than he would get on the UFA market.

I move Staal pretty much only for a younger skilled centerman and I'm not that interested in Kadri. Toronto would have to give up a bit more anyway. ROR would be more of a straight up deal. As well if I'm moving Staal I might be thinking about pushing Brady Skjei to turn pro.

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06-16-2014, 09:03 PM
  #39
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Looking at those two bottom guys, Klein and Moore, Moore had 16 penalty minutes in the playoffs...shame on you. And less points.

Klein is by far the better player, I'm sure he can do a decent job as a second pairing guy if Stralman departs.

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06-17-2014, 08:26 AM
  #40
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Moore is not as bad a player as some are making out. He's a lot better defender than Del Zotto was.

Keeping Stralman depends on Anton agreeing to a more reasonable deal than he would get on the UFA market.

I move Staal pretty much only for a younger skilled centerman and I'm not that interested in Kadri. Toronto would have to give up a bit more anyway. ROR would be more of a straight up deal. As well if I'm moving Staal I might be thinking about pushing Brady Skjei to turn pro.
pretty much all yes.

i would do a ror for staal deal and i totally agree, if i move staal i want a centerman back to slot into that 1/2 c spot. younger, bigger, faster. thats what we need up the middle.

moore is a much better defender than del zotto and more importantly, moore doesnt skate in mudd. that klein for del zotto deal was a very good play by slats given del zottos damaged value.

a prior poster brought up an excellent point with john moore. he was rushed by cbus. he wasnt coddled, protected, spoon fed and given ample time to develop like we are doing with gordie clarks prized draft pick, dylan mcilrath. moore learned and is learning playing big boy hockey. hes making some glaring mistakes on d, no doubt, but hes also showing some very good development.

moore is still developing but he just played in 3 playoff series' and a scf. but for one dumb penalty- that i had no problem with btw, he would have played in every playoff game. hes gaining valuable experience while playing in the nhl. he is improving his defense and showing real signs of an offensive game including a very good hard low slapper.

people here kill the kid. i mean brutal beatings on this board but at the same time they allow dylan mcilrath to "develop" in the ahl. ridiculous. moore wasnt afforded the same patience.

this kid is an unfinished product but at 6'3 200 lbs with a stride like he has and only 23 yrs of age, hes earned another contract imo.

i expect alot of crow to be consumed down the road when this kid breaks out.

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06-17-2014, 02:46 PM
  #41
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Yeah Moore's not that bad. We'll have to wait and see if he can smooth out some of his shortcomings but he does a lot of good things out there

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06-17-2014, 02:58 PM
  #42
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Klein played very well for us. He should not be moved. Very reasonable contract for a guy who can play top 4 minutes and it will only look better as the cap goes up in the coming years.

I want Stralman back but not at the cost if Klein. I think we can re-sign Stralman and keep Klein.

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06-17-2014, 03:14 PM
  #43
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Klein played very well for us. He should not be moved. Very reasonable contract for a guy who can play top 4 minutes and it will only look better as the cap goes up in the coming years.

I want Stralman back but not at the cost if Klein. I think we can re-sign Stralman and keep Klein.
How?

Klein is an asset we can move that won't harm the team too much.

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06-17-2014, 03:15 PM
  #44
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The only way it makes sense to me is if Stralman is taking below market and we're basically swapping salaries. Moving Klein to allow us to pay Stralman $5 million-ish makes no sense. That's way too much money invested in the defense without having a lot of two way ability.

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06-17-2014, 03:17 PM
  #45
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The only way it makes sense to me is if Stralman is taking below market and we're basically swapping salaries. Moving Klein to allow us to pay Stralman $5 million-ish makes no sense. That's way too much money invested in the defense without having a lot of two way ability.
McDonagh will be a two-way stud next year, and while Stralsy doesn't put up points he constantly tips the ice in our favor.

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06-17-2014, 03:33 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
How?

Klein is an asset we can move that won't harm the team too much.
Klein is also an asset we can keep and use the money saved on Stralman to upgrade the team elsewhere.

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06-17-2014, 03:35 PM
  #47
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Klein is also an asset we can keep and use the money saved on Stralman to upgrade the team elsewhere.
You're right, but I think given the FA options it would be better if the team kept Stralman.

Klein and Staal would NOT be a good pairing. Staal is elite in his zone but needs someone like Stralsy to bring play the other way, and Klein is not that guy. And John Moore-whoever would likely not be, either.

We'd go from 2 very good pairings to 2 pretty subpar pairings. Is there any offensive players out there that make it worth that?

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06-17-2014, 03:42 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by BlueshirtBlitz View Post
You're right, but I think given the FA options it would be better if the team kept Stralman.

Klein and Staal would NOT be a good pairing. Staal is elite in his zone but needs someone like Stralsy to bring play the other way, and Klein is not that guy. And John Moore-whoever would likely not be, either.

We'd go from 2 very good pairings to 2 pretty subpar pairings. Is there any offensive players out there that make it worth that?
I think Klein and Staal could be a very good pairing, although more in the mold of Staal-Girardi from a few years back than Staal-Stralman from this year.

Only a training camp in that situation would tell though. I'm of the opinion that Klein will look as good as Stralman in this system when he has a full training camp to drill it into his head. Klein's a very intelligent person when it comes to learning the game. He never really got that chance. Other people don't share that opinion, but either way. Time would tell.

Believe it or not, I would almost be inclined to put Staal and Girardi back together and put McDonagh with Klein, but I'm probably crazy there.

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06-17-2014, 03:56 PM
  #49
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Why ROR over Stasny if the choice is trading assets that have real value and could bring us a more offensive 1C who isn't a negotiating nightmare vs. just working hard on our RFA contracts, saying goodbye to a few people (Boyle, Pouliot, etc.) and bringing in Stasny? I wouldn't mind seeing what Fast, Lindberg, Miller, or Ryan Haggerty can do with some TOI that isn't disjointed and solely on the fourth line (well, Miller had some time on other lines). It just makes sense to me to focus on Strahlman, D. Moore, etc. If we need to make a trade, we need to go for a Jeff Skinner or a Pavelski, not ROR.

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06-17-2014, 04:35 PM
  #50
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Why ROR over Stasny if the choice is trading assets that have real value and could bring us a more offensive 1C who isn't a negotiating nightmare vs. just working hard on our RFA contracts, saying goodbye to a few people (Boyle, Pouliot, etc.) and bringing in Stasny? I wouldn't mind seeing what Fast, Lindberg, Miller, or Ryan Haggerty can do with some TOI that isn't disjointed and solely on the fourth line (well, Miller had some time on other lines). It just makes sense to me to focus on Strahlman, D. Moore, etc. If we need to make a trade, we need to go for a Jeff Skinner or a Pavelski, not ROR.
Stastny is an upcoming UFA this summer. Stastny has also made it pretty clear that he wants to stay in Denver. Whether Denver can afford to keep him is another question. I think he'll probably be on the open market. The question then is whether you want or are even able to pay $6 to $7 mil per for him. I guess he qualifies as a 1st line center but an elite one?--no. If he doesn't play for Colorado next year--there are 29 other teams. Thinking automatically that the Rangers will be the team he signs for is reaching. Not necessarily. If not Colorado he might prefer staying out west. He even might prefer playing for his father's old team in New Jersey.

Jeff Skinner I'm not interested in at all. I don't believe he plays much center. He's mostly on the wing. He's had numerous concussions and has a nasty habit of skating with his head down. IMO--he's not going to have a long career. He could be done by the time he hits 30. Even if not--I don't see him as a big difference maker. I think it would be a big mistake to trade anything of much value for him.

As far as Pavelski or ROR--both would be great additions both will cost us something substantial.

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