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PK Subban - Potentially Best Defenseman in Habs history?

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Old
06-19-2014, 11:16 PM
  #76
Teufelsdreck
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I was going to say "emphatically not" but I reconsidered being that blunt so as not to upset my younger board members who don't go as far back as I do. He's undoubtedly very talented and I've no doubt he'll be in the HOF when he retires but let's just say he has a lot to prove. I'm old enough to have seen the very best D men in Habs history. He's not nearly as smart a hockey player as Doug Harvey or Serge Savard and he probably never will be. I never saw either of them make the wrong decisions or take the foolish penalties he still does. Jacques Laperriere may have had the best defensive instincts of all. Finally, PK isn't the physical force that Larry Robinson was.

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06-19-2014, 11:18 PM
  #77
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I understand many of you are very young but to compare Mike Weever to Rod Languay is comical.1st Rod is a giant of a man at 6ft4 220 and weever is a midget.Another thing training camps in 1970s were blood event-where Bowman and Ruel would watch fight after fight and laugh at players after blood was pouring out of faces.I know because as a kid would go to some of the training camps.Recently I went 3 days at Vancouver Camp in 2011-And could not believe it -figure skating was more violent-its a joke.Lived in Quebec as youth and later family moved to BC.

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06-19-2014, 11:53 PM
  #78
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Everybody forgets our other Norris trophy winner
Had it not been for injury everybody would be talking about the big four
Jacques Laperriere

I dont think PK's gotten to his level yet, let alone Harvey or Big Bird

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Old
06-20-2014, 12:54 AM
  #79
CH25
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If he gets us a cup he could be

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06-20-2014, 01:26 AM
  #80
fordillingerlifesake
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No sorry. Not even close yet, but maybe one day

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06-20-2014, 01:27 AM
  #81
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Doug Harvey is

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06-20-2014, 01:56 AM
  #82
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At his absolute peak and if he performs at that peak (which he's yet to hit) for a decade, he still wouldn't be. That's no knock on him, our best D all time were just that good. Sure I could see PK's jersey hanging from the rafters or his plaque in the hall, but our best defenseman are some of the greatest players in history.

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06-20-2014, 02:13 AM
  #83
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No.

Doug Harvey is the best, and will still be the best, long after PK retires. Harvey revolutionized the game, PK won't. Harvey was the best of his era, PK is not. To compare players over different generations, you have to take in account where they ranked in their respective generation.

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06-20-2014, 07:43 AM
  #84
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Honestly watching Subban play the last 2 years, I am seeing signs that he's going to surpass all habs defensemen in his career and even league wide too, Bobby Orr was great but Subban will blow him out of the water soon.

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06-20-2014, 08:24 AM
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by habscup View Post
Honestly watching Subban play the last 2 years, I am seeing signs that he's going to surpass all habs defensemen in his career and even league wide too, Bobby Orr was great but Subban will blow him out of the water soon.
Different era, can't compare. Subban might be better than Orr was if you compare them directly, but if you compare Orr to the other defensemen in his generation vs PK now.. obviously Orr is way ahead.

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06-20-2014, 09:50 AM
  #86
WakeUpNHL
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Originally Posted by coolasprICE View Post
One thing I can confirm - he's a lot better than Chelios.
lol. Subban is good, very good, but guys like Robinson, Savard, Lapointe, Harvey, Chelios were very good for a very long time and won lots of silver hardware.

Let's revisit this topic in about ten years from now.

I will admit that Subban is one of the most electric/exciting players to watch in the NHL right now.

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06-20-2014, 01:07 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by WakeUpNHL View Post
lol. Subban is good, very good, but guys like Robinson, Savard, Lapointe, Harvey, Chelios were very good for a very long time and won lots of silver hardware.

Let's revisit this topic in about ten years from now.

I will admit that Subban is one of the most electric/exciting players to watch in the NHL right now.
Some of the things PK does, I've never seen. The guys you mentioned were amazing, there's no doubt, but with exercise science having developed so much over the past decades, we're seeing things we never saw before. Guys are a lot more agile and fit, that's why I don't like to compare eras. A lot of the good goalies back then couldn't keep up with some of the back ups of today. They let goals in that you would absolutely rip this generation of goalies for letting in.

I think being dominant in today's NHL is a lot more impressive than doing in back in the eras where players smoked during periods.

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06-20-2014, 01:31 PM
  #88
Blind Gardien
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Things like "Best" and "Greatest" are basically bogged down in semantics. I don't know that Subban can hope to challenge Chelios, Robinson, Harvey and those guys that are mentioned in this thread for "greatness". But yeah, because of the evolution of the game and the physical talents involved, one might argue for him becoming the "best"... if you choose to interpret it that way.

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06-20-2014, 01:34 PM
  #89
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Why make a thread when we haven't seen best or most of the career of Subban? This is way too early.

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06-20-2014, 01:40 PM
  #90
Kojo
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No.

You're 10 years early for this thread.

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Old
06-20-2014, 01:51 PM
  #91
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Originally Posted by Kojo View Post
No.

You're 10 years early for this thread.
Apparently not early enough to have this embarassing juvenile thread, closed.

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Old
06-20-2014, 01:52 PM
  #92
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You would have saved yourself a lot of hate, OP, had you just added 'Can he become the...' to your title.
This is why other fanbases laugh at us.

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06-20-2014, 02:47 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by habscup View Post
Honestly watching Subban play the last 2 years, I am seeing signs that he's going to surpass all habs defensemen in his career and even league wide too, Bobby Orr was great but Subban will blow him out of the water soon.
It's comments like this, that make Habs fans look stupid.

Bobby Orr won 2 Art Ross' in his lifetime, and scored 46 goals in a season (record for a defenceman). Think about that for a minute.

Subban isn't even the best defenseman today. Heck, Subban isn't even the best offensive defenseman today.

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06-20-2014, 03:22 PM
  #94
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Let's say this.

In 20 years, there is a possibility that Subban's jersey be raised to the rafters. A possibility.

However, it will require him to keep improving and to dominate the play in ways for which the league has no good answer. It will not be easy.

But if there is one skater, one, with a shot at the rafters in our actual lineup, it's Subban. The rafters would be enough for him to be spoken in the same breath as these old greats, but it's very hard to compare generations. Right now, you can't really compare Subban to Harvey because he's not the best defenseman in the league. And the big 3 were ridiculously talented, all in their different ways.

But remember one thing. Getting your number retired here is MUCH harder than getting into the Hall of fame. Right now, Subban is a Hall of fame level player, but no more.

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06-20-2014, 03:26 PM
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highstick14 View Post
It's comments like this, that make Habs fans look stupid.

Bobby Orr won 2 Art Ross' in his lifetime, and scored 46 goals in a season (record for a defenceman). Think about that for a minute.

Subban isn't even the best defenseman today. Heck, Subban isn't even the best offensive defenseman today.
This thread is a joke. Subban is a great Dman but cannot compare him to the likes of Savard, Robinson and even LaPointe. I saw those guys play and they had a presence about them when they were on the ice. Now to go as far as saying that PK will blow Orr out of the water, this just shows either the ignorance of todays uninformed youth or just plain stupidity.

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Old
06-20-2014, 04:19 PM
  #96
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Im deleting my post its not even worth arguing this


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Old
06-20-2014, 04:44 PM
  #97
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Originally Posted by Mr. Hab View Post
It's true...hard to compare from different areas (or not fair), but...aren't hockey players always getting faster/bigger/better? (not to disrespect the 50s-60s70-80s). Better equipment, fitness coaches, intense expensive training, no 2nd jobs (ex: like in the 50s-60-70s), steroids (sarcasm), etc,etc...are also factors.
Yes, imo.

Hard (or not fair) to compare (for example) tennis players from 50-60 yrs ago when they had wooden racquets to...today's tennis (or easy to!). Today's tennis is ten times faster, harder VS 50 yrs ago...imo. Heck, 80s, early 90s tennis is not as fast as today's tennis, imo. (but I preferred 80s and early 90s tennis!! just my opinion! preferred the players).

PK Subban is the most entertaining dman (or player) in the history of the NHL?
Yes for me (imo).

PK Subban is the best dman in the history of the NHL?
Yes for me, imo (and/or...Doughty and Subban are the best ever...imo, and both are huge winners).

Doughty, imo...is a combination of Chelios, Ray Bourque and sometimes has that ''flash'' that Subban has.
Subban...is Subban (no one like him...no one).

We're so lucky to have Subban...still can't believe he wasn't selected 1st or 2nd overall!! (bonus: he's a Torontonian but grew up a HAB fan!!).

Sky (or space!) is the limit for Subban.
Been saying this ever since I first saw him play and some out there still think I'm crazy! no problem! (couldn't believe how good Subban was when he played his 1st playoff game and more!! actually...I still wonder sometimes why management didn't let him play the season before or earlier in the season? I'm sure he was quite developed already since he came in like a superstar and has played like one ever since...Beaulieu and Tinordi are still a bit raw, yet the organization gave them chances...early, so wondering why Subban was so delayed? no matter...he's the best we've ever had). The NHL needs more Subbans and Doughtys, but aren't too many like 'em!

Go PK Subban GO!! (help us get Cup #25).

Would a 25yr young Larry Robinson be a PLUS 120 today?
If so...maybe Subban and Doughty would be PLUS 200!!
Maybe today's Subban is a PLUS 300 in the 60s-70s (we would just need a time machine to verify that!).
Imo, like comparing a Ferrari/Lamborgini to a 60s-70s Dodge car, or...a bulldog VS a greyhound (for speed).

Imo, today's Subban playing in the 60s, 70s (with today's equipment, training, no 2nd jobs, fitness trainers, amazing training, etc,etc)...would skate circles around everyone. Would be a 24 yr old VS old-timers...ok I'm probably going too far!! They'd have to cross-check him in the face and injure him to stop him which is what players did back then (ex: Bobby Clarke) and some are still trying to do it today (Chara, Lucic,etc), but can't catch him.

I guess the solution is to leave the 60s-70s players in the 60s-70s to keep it fair, but the discussion would be so boring!

Same here...same here!! But let's not say this to Subban's agent!
(factor: also...'cause of Crosby's serious concussion history..., also because you just don't trade the one player that gives us goosebumps the way Subban does...no NHL player entertains us as much as Subban, not even Crosby.... I want Subban to retire a Hab...never seen a dman/player like him, never, ok...I also like Doughty! but there's something - a lot - about Subban that makes us believe again in #25).
Jesus Jumpin' Christ on a pogo stick. Hyperbole much? This post reads like the mental diarrhea of a ten yr. old. (no offense, just sayin')

No Subban is NOT the greatest Habs defenseman, he needs A LOT of maturing STILL to enter into a conversation about the top 10 Habs d-men. As someone posted earlier prime Markov>than Subban today. Been watching the Habs religiously since the mid-70s. Not as good as any of the Big Three, Chelios was a more complete defenseman, Langway and Desjardins were better in their own end. Markov played/plays a more heads up game. JC Tremblay and Laperriere are largely before my time, past their prime when I saw them, but they were tremendous defensemen. And Harvey is always in the conversation as the best after Orr.

Can PK enter the conversation? Sure. But he's got to be considered one of the best of his own generation first, and, in spite of the Norris, he's still a work in progress. I'll take the opinion of a sharp, successful hockey mind like Mike Babcock over the votes of the sporting press, and definitely over the posters on this board.

Love Subban, I think he's an immense talent and one of the best skaters in the NHL. But...WAAAAYYYY too many brain cramps. Puts himself out of position going for the big hit. Makes too many silly, low % passes. Telegraphs his shot. Too much cheap shot antics as well. The way PK goes about slew footing people if he'd been playing in a different era he would've had his head beat in by the likes of a Terry O'Reilly.

Try putting this post over in the History of Hockey section. That knowledgeable bunch would tear this speculation to threads.

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06-20-2014, 05:17 PM
  #98
habscup
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Originally Posted by double5son10 View Post
Jesus Jumpin' Christ on a pogo stick. Hyperbole much? This post reads like the mental diarrhea of a ten yr. old. (no offense, just sayin')

No Subban is NOT the greatest Habs defenseman, he needs A LOT of maturing STILL to enter into a conversation about the top 10 Habs d-men. As someone posted earlier prime Markov>than Subban today. Been watching the Habs religiously since the mid-70s. Not as good as any of the Big Three, Chelios was a more complete defenseman, Langway and Desjardins were better in their own end. Markov played/plays a more heads up game. JC Tremblay and Laperriere are largely before my time, past their prime when I saw them, but they were tremendous defensemen. And Harvey is always in the conversation as the best after Orr.

Can PK enter the conversation? Sure. But he's got to be considered one of the best of his own generation first, and, in spite of the Norris, he's still a work in progress. I'll take the opinion of a sharp, successful hockey mind like Mike Babcock over the votes of the sporting press, and definitely over the posters on this board.

Love Subban, I think he's an immense talent and one of the best skaters in the NHL. But...WAAAAYYYY too many brain cramps. Puts himself out of position going for the big hit. Makes too many silly, low % passes. Telegraphs his shot. Too much cheap shot antics as well. The way PK goes about slew footing people if he'd been playing in a different era he would've had his head beat in by the likes of a Terry O'Reilly.

Try putting this post over in the History of Hockey section. That knowledgeable bunch would tear this speculation to threads.
The truth came out in the end when you said hes a cheap shot artist. Obviously you have a blind hate for him and thats fine, but please keep your opinions to yourself. Babcock chose bowmeester and vlasic ovrr subban too, guess theyre better than him too? Oh and rick nash> marty st louis?

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06-20-2014, 05:59 PM
  #99
Cyclones Rock
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Originally Posted by highstick14 View Post
It's comments like this, that make Habs fans look stupid.

Bobby Orr won 2 Art Ross' in his lifetime, and scored 46 goals in a season (record for a defenceman). Think about that for a minute.

Subban isn't even the best defenseman today. Heck, Subban isn't even the best offensive defenseman today.


Orr's stats:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=4085


Subban's stats:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=89716

Contemplate Orr's last full season (at age 27):


http://www.hockey-reference.com/leag...5_leaders.html

Orr led the league in scoring and there's not a single other dman who cracked the top 20 in any scoring category. Subban will never sniff this type of performance nor would he have in that era. Either Orr or Gretzky can be chosen as the greatest of all time. Anyone even thinking that Subban will ever approach Orr is delusional with a capital D.


Last edited by Cyclones Rock: 06-20-2014 at 06:12 PM.
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06-20-2014, 06:02 PM
  #100
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Originally Posted by Cyclones Rock View Post
Orr's stats:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p...y.php?pid=4085


Subban's stats:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/p....php?pid=89716

Contemplate Orr's last full season (at age 27) when one has any notion that Subban is even worthy of mention in the same breath.
Subban wasn't even a plus player on the Habs last season.


http://www.hockey-reference.com/leag...5_leaders.html
I was joking about Orr dude, let it go. It's obvious Orr is better than Subban. He's miles ahead of any Dmen today or at any time.

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