HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Metropolitan Division > New York Rangers
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie
Notices

2014 Offseason - Roster Building / Trade Speculation Thread IV

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
06-26-2014, 09:36 PM
  #951
Lundsanity30
Registered User
 
Lundsanity30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 13,559
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
If Pouliot leaves, there are a few options I think they should look at, some have been thrown around:

Morin
Winnik
Jokinen (Jussi)
Fast

If Stralman leaves, there's a couple of options:
Boyle
Weaver
Niskanen
Gilbert
Fayne
Franson
Allen

For Richards replacement there are a few choices as well:
Grabovski
Stastny
ROR
Legwand
Miller
Lindberg

Boyle will most likely be leaving and they will need a replacement:
Winnik
Gibbons
Carcillo
Malhotra
Helm
Fast
Haggerty
Miller


Who am I missing?
I like Mason Raymond. while a small line, I think he could excel with Zucc and Brassard.

Lundsanity30 is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 09:37 PM
  #952
NYR Viper
Registered User
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 33,637
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
I like Mason Raymond. while a small line, I think he could excel with Zucc and Brassard.
Ah that's definitely another one I forgot. I like Raymond.

NYR Viper is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 09:43 PM
  #954
Lundsanity30
Registered User
 
Lundsanity30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 13,559
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Ah that's definitely another one I forgot. I like Raymond.
AV influence as well.. and he's a speed guy, which is what we're built on.

Lundsanity30 is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 09:46 PM
  #956
JKDR1
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 95
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zil View Post
I just think extending Staal is short sighted. Our young talent on the left side is so much better than our talent on the right side. Even the biggest McIlrath supporters have to admit that Skjei is way ahead of him at this point. Behind Skjei we have Allen, Bodie, and Graves. All we have behind McIlrath is Allen playing on his off side, plus projects like Andersson and Zamorsky. If we're going to maximize our assets and cap space to make a cup run, paying Stralman and dealing Staal for someone like ROR or Kadri makes more sense than giving Staal a Girardi deal and letting Stralman walk.
This

JKDR1 is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 09:46 PM
  #957
Zil
Shrug
 
Zil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 5,496
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
I dont disagree with what you're saying here.

I do think the Girardi vs. Stralman debate is an incredibly stupid example for you to be using.
I don't know about that. Girardi has lot of pluses that don't necessarily have to do with his level of play. He's homegrown. He's the second longest tenured Ranger. He went undrafted so he's a bit of an underdog. He always plays hard and does so in ways that are highly visible (hits and blocked shots).

Contrast that with Stralman, who bounced around several organizations who didn't know what they had in him before we picked him up mid-season in 2011-12. He plays a more understated, European-style game than Girardi. You don't really notice individual plays by him except when he makes a huge hip check.

Blue Blooded wrote an article about our defense core over on BSB. I find its analysis pretty convincing: http://www.blueshirtbanter.com/2014/...ger-defencemen

Zil is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 09:46 PM
  #958
bobbop
Henrik & Pop
 
bobbop's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Suburban Phoenix
Country: United States
Posts: 5,934
vCash: 500
If Pouliot and Stralman do walk, that's going to leave some money in the budget to make at least one significant move. Not sure who that would be. Perhaps a trade. I do like Winnick and Gilbert as cost efficient and effective players. Gilbert in particular would thrive in this system.

bobbop is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 09:47 PM
  #959
NYR Viper
Registered User
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 33,637
vCash: 500
Here's an idea. There are conflicting reports on Kevin Hayes, Chicagos former 1st rounder who hasn't signed with them. What about him as a possibility to replace Pouliot? Power forward. Not the best hockey IQ but very strong. Good shot, good hands.

They should be all over him

NYR Viper is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 09:49 PM
  #960
NYR Viper
Registered User
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 33,637
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobbop View Post
If Pouliot and Stralman do walk, that's going to leave some money in the budget to make at least one significant move. Not sure who that would be. Perhaps a trade. I do like Winnick and Gilbert as cost efficient and effective players. Gilbert in particular would thrive in this system.
If they can save a bit of money then I wonder if that puts them in the running to find some better 3c's

NYR Viper is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 09:50 PM
  #961
Lundsanity30
Registered User
 
Lundsanity30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 13,559
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Here's an idea. There are conflicting reports on Kevin Hayes, Chicagos former 1st rounder who hasn't signed with them. What about him as a possibility to replace Pouliot? Power forward. Not the best hockey IQ but very strong. Good shot, good hands.

They should be all over him
We would have to trade for him right

Lundsanity30 is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 09:51 PM
  #962
NYR Viper
Registered User
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 33,637
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lundsanity30 View Post
We would have to trade for him right
Not as of August 15th. At that point he is a UFA

NYR Viper is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 09:54 PM
  #963
Lundsanity30
Registered User
 
Lundsanity30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 13,559
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
If they can save a bit of money then I wonder if that puts them in the running to find some better 3c's
They should be able to spend on a 3C without a trade IMO..

or even a 2nd center, putting Brassard back as the 3C.

I think Zucc/Kreider/Brassard should at most be 11M. (4.25 Brassard), 4M Zucc. Kreider 2.5 = 10.75M

Lundsanity30 is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 09:54 PM
  #964
NYR Viper
Registered User
 
NYR Viper's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: PA
Country: United States
Posts: 33,637
vCash: 500
Here's another one.

Brett Connolly. Will TB give him a shot? Big winger who skates well.

NYR Viper is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 09:57 PM
  #965
Lundsanity30
Registered User
 
Lundsanity30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 13,559
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by NYR Viper View Post
Here's another one.

Brett Connolly. Will TB give him a shot? Big winger who skates well.
He's a guy I'd be interested in as well.

Lundsanity30 is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 10:06 PM
  #966
TurgePurge*
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 591
vCash: 500
Catching up on the chatter today. Do you guys really think a Staal Klein pairing would work in playoff type hockey?

Just because one guy is a top 60 left D and one guy is a top 60 right D doesnt mean that pairing would be 2nd pair quality. Staal and Stralman had a good rhythm. Retrieve the puck, move it over, move it out. Rinse and repeat. Staal and Klein doesnt strike me as a very efficient pair.

TurgePurge* is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 10:11 PM
  #967
Thirty One
k.
 
Thirty One's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Country: Canada
Posts: 19,042
vCash: 420
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurgePurge View Post
Catching up on the chatter today. Do you guys really think a Staal Klein pairing would work in playoff type hockey?

Just because one guy is a top 60 left D and one guy is a top 60 right D doesnt mean that pairing would be 2nd pair quality. Staal and Stralman had a good rhythm. Retrieve the puck, move it over, move it out. Rinse and repeat. Staal and Klein doesnt strike me as a very efficient pair.
I think if Klein is in your top 4, you're gonna have a bad time.

Thirty One is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 10:12 PM
  #968
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
 
Tawnos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Charlotte, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 18,291
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zil View Post
Blue Blooded wrote an entire article about this over at BSB: http://www.blueshirtbanter.com/2014/...ger-defencemen



In what way? If you can post strong possession numbers even against opponents who post strong possession numbers that says something. I'll put it another way: Even Klein puts up strong possession numbers when given the extremely sheltered minutes and zone starts he saw in the playoffs. Stralman would likewise put up great numbers in such a scenario. The difference comes when you ramp up the quality of competition and the difficulty of zone starts.

On a side note: You said before that two puck mover types won't do well together (ie McDonagh and Stralman). How do you explain the Kings' top pairing of Doughty and Muzzin? Doughty and McDonagh are extremely similar players, but having Muzzin, another puck mover, for a partner hasn't hurt Doughty at all. And Muzzin is far less of a stay at home guy than Stralman so that should hurt their defense if your ideas about complementary players are correct.
That isn't what I said. What I said was that you need a player doing a lot of without-puck work in order to have a strong possession player maximize his ability. I would think that all levels in between are possible, in any situation. The main point is that you simply can't separate two defensemen on a pairing and draw a conclusion. These aren't a bunch of individuals playing a team sport, a la baseball. These are teammates playing a team sport.

As for your specific instance, Doughty and Muzzin were pretty close on the season in hits (180-169; 6% diff) and blocked shots (91-82; 10% diff) and takeaways (16-14; 13% diff). These three stats are indications of "without puck" work. There's a variation in how individual official scorers tabulate these things, but for players on the same team, it works out. Staal and Stralman were close in hits (83-75; 10%) but far apart in blocked shots (84-64; 24%) and takeaways (41-29; 29% diff). If I were comparing the two pairings, I'd say that Doughty/Muzzin were more evenly sharing the load on the "without puck" efforts than Staal/Stralman. Your assertion of Muzzin as the "puck mover" of the pair isn't really borne out by the statistics. He's a more-than-capable "without puck" defender in his own right. That's not to say that Stralman isn't, just that Staal handles more of that duty than he does. I will say that the two of them seemed to share the load a fair amount more in the playoffs. Stralman was great.

McDonagh/Girardi is an interesting one to look at in this aspect. Girardi is way in front of McDonagh on hits and blocks, but McDonagh has way more takeaways. It's an indication of their particular skill sets.

Worth noting that McDonagh had the most giveaways of the top-4, both playoffs and regular season. His takeaway stats in the playoffs were ridiculously higher than anyone else on the team. He had 20, the next had 8.

Tawnos is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 10:28 PM
  #969
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
 
Tawnos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Charlotte, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 18,291
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by TurgePurge View Post
Catching up on the chatter today. Do you guys really think a Staal Klein pairing would work in playoff type hockey?

Just because one guy is a top 60 left D and one guy is a top 60 right D doesnt mean that pairing would be 2nd pair quality. Staal and Stralman had a good rhythm. Retrieve the puck, move it over, move it out. Rinse and repeat. Staal and Klein doesnt strike me as a very efficient pair.
I'm an advocate of Klein being a capable top-4 guy, handling more of what I am, for now, calling the "without puck duties." After thinking about this a lot today, I'm not sure about a Staal-Klein pairing. It depends on how much puck possession Staal has left in him after the concussions and eye injury. I have doubts on that score. If no Stralman, I'm not sure where they should go from there.

Tawnos is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 10:29 PM
  #970
Zil
Shrug
 
Zil's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 5,496
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by -31- View Post
I think if Klein is in your top 4, you're gonna have a bad time.
It's a legitimately terrifying prospect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tawnos View Post
That isn't what I said. What I said was that you need a player doing a lot of without-puck work in order to have a strong possession player maximize his ability. I would think that all levels in between are possible, in any situation. The main point is that you simply can't separate two defensemen on a pairing and draw a conclusion. These aren't a bunch of individuals playing a team sport, a la baseball. These are teammates playing a team sport.

As for your specific instance, Doughty and Muzzin were pretty close on the season in hits (180-169; 6% diff) and blocked shots (91-82; 10% diff) and takeaways (16-14; 13% diff). These three stats are indications of "without puck" work. There's a variation in how individual official scorers tabulate these things, but for players on the same team, it works out. Staal and Stralman were close in hits (83-75; 10%) but far apart in blocked shots (84-64; 24%) and takeaways (41-29; 29% diff). If I were comparing the two pairings, I'd say that Doughty/Muzzin were more evenly sharing the load on the "without puck" efforts than Staal/Stralman. Your assertion of Muzzin as the "puck mover" of the pair isn't really borne out by the statistics. He's a more-than-capable "without puck" defender in his own right. That's not to say that Stralman isn't, just that Staal handles more of that duty than he does. I will say that the two of them seemed to share the load a fair amount more in the playoffs. Stralman was great.

McDonagh/Girardi is an interesting one to look at in this aspect. Girardi is way in front of McDonagh on hits and blocks, but McDonagh has way more takeaways. It's an indication of their particular skill sets.

Worth noting that McDonagh had the most giveaways of the top-4, both playoffs and regular season. His takeaway stats in the playoffs were ridiculously higher than anyone else on the team. He had 20, the next had 8.
I think you're reading too much into white noise stats. I don't know how you can contend that Stralman needs a partner to block a lot of shots for him. That doesn't make sense. They're playing on opposite sides. It's not like Staal's going to step in and block a shot that Stralman is unwilling to.

Takeaways and giveaways are especially troublesome. Takeaways pile up when you play a lot without the puck. Giveaways pile up when you play a lot with the puck. That's not to say turning the puck over is a good thing, but the raw totals of both of these stats don't necessarily tell you a lot.

I don't see how any of this proves that Stralman wouldn't be able to play with McDonagh.

Zil is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 10:30 PM
  #971
Mittelstadt Nemesis
...One
 
Mittelstadt Nemesis's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 21,121
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by -31- View Post
I think if Klein is in your top 4, you're gonna have a bad time.
Klein was the #3 defenseman in Nashvlle in 11-12, the year they finished 5th in the league in points.

In fact, he was the #3 in Nashville behind Weber and Suter for a very, very long time including a myriad of playoff seasons where they allowed among the fewest goals against in the league.

It's bordering on vitriol from a lot of you folks, at this point.

__________________
Proud Eternalist since... ever.
Mittelstadt Nemesis is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 10:31 PM
  #972
Lundsanity30
Registered User
 
Lundsanity30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 13,559
vCash: 500
IF we're keeping Stralman, we have to deal Staal.. There's just no other way.

Lundsanity30 is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 10:31 PM
  #973
Lundsanity30
Registered User
 
Lundsanity30's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 13,559
vCash: 500
The overrating of Stralman and the underrating of Klein on here is alarming.

It's about as bad as people were talking about how when the Yankees signed Ellsbury, they signed a much much better player than Gardner, which is also criminally untrue outside of one aberration year.

Lundsanity30 is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 10:40 PM
  #974
Raspewtin
Fire Clowneault
 
Raspewtin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2013
Country: France
Posts: 33,047
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fitzy View Post
Klein was the #3 defenseman in Nashvlle in 11-12, the year they finished 5th in the league in points.

In fact, he was the #3 in Nashville behind Weber and Suter for a very, very long time including a myriad of playoff seasons where they allowed among the fewest goals against in the league.

It's bordering on vitriol from a lot of you folks, at this point.
Don't bother, they'll find a way to say he had nothing to do with that.

__________________
"UGH! NOW WHAT AM I GONNA DO WITH THIS CUSTOM "CAPSPACE" JERSEY?!?!" - East Coast Bias.
Raspewtin is offline  
Old
06-26-2014, 10:41 PM
  #975
Tawnos
A guy with a bass
 
Tawnos's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Charlotte, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 18,291
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zil View Post
It's a legitimately terrifying prospect.



I think you're reading too much into white noise stats. I don't know how you can contend that Stralman needs a partner to block a lot of shots for him. That doesn't make sense. They're playing on opposite sides. It's not like Staal's going to step in and block a shot that Stralman is unwilling to.

Takeaways and giveaways are especially troublesome. Takeaways pile up when you play a lot without the puck. Giveaways pile up when you play a lot with the puck. That's not to say turning the puck over is a good thing, but the raw totals of both of these stats don't necessarily tell you a lot.

I don't see how any of this proves that Stralman wouldn't be able to play with McDonagh.
My contention is not that Stralman needs someone on his pairing taking greater care of these kinds of things, but that he excels when someone is. My second contention would be that, in order for Stralman to succeed on a McDonagh-Stralman pairing, he would need McDonagh to be handling more of the "without puck" issues than he does. That would mean that McDonagh isn't doing as much of the things we all want him to be doing. That is not a smart use of your roster.

You can poo-poo these stats all you want, but they are legitimate indicators of how good a defender is at playing defense without the puck, which even most good possession defenders are doing more than 40% of the time. They have value, but it needs to be put into context. Staal's job is not to block a shot or throw a hit that Stralman doesn't want to, but to block the shot or throw the hit when he gets the chance and rely on Stralman (or another Ranger) to retrieve the puck after.

And I wasn't using the raw totals of the stats alone. I was using them to paint a picture and lend some color to the raw totals of the Corsi statistics.

Tawnos is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:16 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. @2017 All Rights Reserved.