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HOH Top-60 Wingers Project - Preliminary & General Discussion Thread

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Old
07-07-2014, 06:48 PM
  #251
seventieslord
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Correct. The WC All-Stars were Krutov, Larionov, and Vladimir Ruzicka.

So Makarov was either an All-Star or Directorate Best forward at every WC between 1979 and 1989, but not both at the same time. (There were no WCs in Olympic years at the time).
Did they do this by design for a while? Were guys who were named best forward considered "above" the all-star team and ineligible for it?

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07-07-2014, 06:49 PM
  #252
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Yeah, I'd definitely take Mikhailov's domestic MVP record over Martinec's considering the leagues they were each achieved in.

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07-07-2014, 07:14 PM
  #253
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Point is that both records are pretty even on paper, neither is beating out the other in top finishes. Now if we only had those records I would agree Mikhailov deserved to be ranked ahead since he played in a better league. But on top of that we do have the direct comparison at the World Championship where Martinec made the All-Star team over Mikhailov more often than not.

Imagine a world where Sergei Makarov gets voted on international AS teams (World Championship or Canada Cup) over Mike Bossy four times in a row. Would anybody still make any case for Bossy over Makarov at all? Or where Slava Fetisov tops Ray Bourque in four consecutive international tournaments. Bourque still ahead?

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07-08-2014, 12:59 AM
  #254
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Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Did they do this by design for a while? Were guys who were named best forward considered "above" the all-star team and ineligible for it?
I don't think it's the same people doing the voting. The All Star Team is voted on by media, the directorate award by IIHF reps. I guess it leads to the same sort of enigmas as Hart vs Lindsay voting.

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07-08-2014, 05:11 AM
  #255
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Originally Posted by Sprague Cleghorn View Post
Would I be wrong in saying Martinec > Mikhailov seeing how Martinec has many more AST than Mikhailov when they played against each other?
Martinec is my all-time favourite player, but I still can't place him above Mikhailov. Having said that, one has to conclude that in 1974-77, Martinec was somewhat better in the World Championships at least; 4 all-star berths and 1 best forward award against 0 is pretty conclusive evidence. Martinec also played well in the 1976 Canada Cup (which Mikhailov missed). However, when you look at years 1970-1973 and 1978-79, I think it is fair to say that Mikhailov was better than Martinec and by a wider margin than Martinec was in 1974-77. Martinec did do well in the 1972 WHC; he had 11 points in 10 games and he set up two goals in the deciding game vs. USSR, and thus definitely helped CSSR to win the world championship. He did fairly well also in the 1978, 1979 and 1981 WHCs, but was seemingly a non-factor in 1970, 1971 and 1973. Mikhailov on the other hand was a top 10 scorer in nearly every WHC he played. But since USSR was somewhat superior to Czechoslovakia - and as a team almost always scored far more goals - comparing their point totals does not necessarily tell everything about their individual performances. However, I would still argue that Mikhailov was a more consistent top class performer in the World Championships.

Then there were of course other international tournaments. I don't see a huge difference between them in Olympic play. Points-wise, Martinec did a little better in 1972 and 1976, but Mikhailov outscored Martinec by a huge margin in 1980. It should be mentioned, however, that Mikhailov was injured during the 1972 OG and did not play all the games, whereas Martinec was injured & played only 2 games in the 1980 OG. Ergo, it is a bit difficult to compare their Olympic records... and we are talking about 13-18 games anyway.

In the Izvestia tournament (= sort of miniature version of the WHC), Mikhailov was named the best forward three times (1969, 1976, 1977) and Martinec once (1979). http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1...d/izvestia.htm)

It is also hard to compare them vs. best-on-best competition, since Mikhailov had more opportunities to face the best NA players. Anyway, when Martinec did face top NHL opposition (e.g. the 1976 CC, Tesla Pardubice vs. NHL in 4 games in 1977-78), I don't see anything that would suggest that he had problems to adjust; pretty much a 1 PPG player in those few games.

As far as Czechoslovakia vs. USSR goes, Martinec had the reputation of being a very dangerous player. In the 1974 WHC, he was apparently so good that in the important 2nd game between the two countries (the 1st was a 7-2 victory for CSSR), the Soviet defenseman Gennady Tsygankov had to deliberately injure Martinec, who then missed the rest of the game, and USSR ended up winning by a score of 3-1. There might have been other 'rough stuff' too over the years (and in general, USSR vs. Czechoslovakia games were pretty chippy), but I don't know any other specific incidents like that one.
I also don't know whether the Czechs ever singled Mikhailov out in the same way, but at least Jiri Holecek has called the Mikhailov-Petrov-Kharlamov line "awesome", so I would think that Mikhailov was pretty awesome in those games too.

The only thing I would really say concerning Mikhailov vs. Martinec is that it would not be very consistent to have Mikhailov really high on the list and then to have Martinec really low. Fair enough, anyone?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
I would say so, but it's hard to say. Here are Martinec's domestic league top 10 finishes in points: 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, 6, 6, 9, 10. That's certainly not bad, but at first glance, does not appear legendary. A couple caveats: Martinec did NOT play on a powerhouse domestic team that steamrolled its competition like Mikhailov. However, he did have some quality linemates. In four of those seasons, he had at least one other teammate in the top 10 in scoring.
Not legendary, no. Of his contemporaries, Milan Novy (clearly) and Ivan Hlinka (slightly) have better domestic records than Martinec. Vaclav Nedomansky too, if you can count him (born in 1944, M in 1949). Unlike Martinec, all three were centers, though, but that probably has nothing/very little to do with anything.

Martinec's international career is easily superior to both Hlinka's and Novy's, so there can be some 'legitimate' reason(s) why Novy consistently outpointed Martinec domestically. Poldi Kladno won 5 championships in 6 seasons (1975-78, 1980), so obviously it was the best team in the CSSR league in the late 1970s. So apparently Novy had the better surroundings somewhat. Then again, I think both played with good linemates & were the key players on their respective teams, and even without Novy, Martinec would not have dominated the league, points-wise.

PS. ARE THERE ANY POSTERS WHO FOLLOWED THE CZECHOSLOVAK LEAGUE IN THE 1970S????? Always have to try


Last edited by VMBM: 07-08-2014 at 10:43 AM. Reason: misinformation
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Old
07-08-2014, 08:39 AM
  #256
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VMBM: where does Yakushev figure in your world view? I place him higher than Mikhailov because of his incredible clutch. Would he also place higher than Firsov?

Makarov
Kharlamov
Yakushev
Firsov
Ovechkin
Mikhailov
Bure
Bobrov
Krutov
Mogilny

??

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07-08-2014, 09:11 AM
  #257
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steve141 View Post
I don't think it's the same people doing the voting. The All Star Team is voted on by media, the directorate award by IIHF reps. I guess it leads to the same sort of enigmas as Hart vs Lindsay voting.
Basically this. I had a typo with Krutov's dates that is now fixed, but basically most (but not all) of the time, the Directorate Best Forward is also on the All-Star team.

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07-08-2014, 10:20 AM
  #258
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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
In the Izvestia tournament (= sort of miniature version of the WHC), Mikhailov was named the best forward twice (1976, 1977) and Martinec once (1979). http://www.chidlovski.com/personal/1...d/izvestia.htm)
I'll correct myself here; Mikhailov was named the best forward at the Izvestia three times - 1976, 1977 AND 1969 (Chidlovski has information only for 1970-1980, and I had to check that elsewhere). I'm not sure whether Martinec played in the 1969 tournament, but he might have done, since a few months later he played a few games in the 1970 WHC.

Izvestia tournaments are probably not very important here, but all the best Soviet and Czechoslovak players played there, and basically Sweden's and Finland's WHC teams.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
VMBM: where does Yakushev figure in your world view? I place him higher than Mikhailov because of his incredible clutch. Would he also place higher than Firsov?

Makarov
Kharlamov
Yakushev
Firsov
Ovechkin
Mikhailov
Bure
Bobrov
Krutov
Mogilny

??
Weeeelllll, in my world, Yak is behind both Firsov and Mikhailov. I really don't see the justification for him being ranked higher than either of them.

I know that he was terrific in the last 3-4 games of the 1972 Summit Series (I've witnessed it myself from DVD!), but do you have some specific information of his "incredible clutch", as you call it? I have no doubt that he was among the key players when Spartak won the Soviet league championship in 1969 and 1976 (maybe even 1967?) too, but do you have something concrete?
In any case, he has a weaker domestic and international resume than Firsov or Mikhailov, and I think he was less versatile player as well (basically a goal scorer).

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07-08-2014, 10:52 AM
  #259
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
VMBM: where does Yakushev figure in your world view? I place him higher than Mikhailov because of his incredible clutch. Would he also place higher than Firsov?

Makarov
Kharlamov
Yakushev
Firsov
Ovechkin
Mikhailov
Bure
Bobrov
Krutov
Mogilny

??
My Russians rank like this:

Makarov
Kharlamov
Firsov
Mikhailov
Yakushev
Balderis
Krutov

Ovechkin
Bure
Mogilny

I ranked NHL and non-NHL Russians seperately. Overall I think it went:

Ovechkin
Makarov
Kharlamov
Bure/Firsov (can't remember, very close)
Mikhailov
Yakushev/Mogilny (again, were very close)
Balderis
Krutov


Last edited by Art of Sedinery: 07-08-2014 at 12:00 PM.
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07-08-2014, 01:04 PM
  #260
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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
Weeeelllll, in my world, Yak is behind both Firsov and Mikhailov. I really don't see the justification for him being ranked higher than either of them.

I know that he was terrific in the last 3-4 games of the 1972 Summit Series (I've witnessed it myself from DVD!), but do you have some specific information of his "incredible clutch", as you call it? I have no doubt that he was among the key players when Spartak won the Soviet league championship in 1969 and 1976 (maybe even 1967?) too, but do you have something concrete?
In any case, he has a weaker domestic and international resume than Firsov or Mikhailov, and I think he was less versatile player as well (basically a goal scorer).
He was also great in the 1974 SS. IIRC, Yakushev has great stats against "real" opponents (Canada, NHL clubs, CSSR), something like 1.25 PPG, higher than Mikhailov. His goal in the 1976 OG final against CSSR tied the game.

Don't know the comparable stats for Firsov.

He was also the driving force behind Spartak 1976 victory against the mighty CSKA (best sniper that year). I daresay he had the higher peak and prime than Mikhailov.

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07-08-2014, 03:11 PM
  #261
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1933-34 Hart

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Originally Posted by eddytheeagle20 View Post
anybody with any knowledge of the 20-30s nhl can they spread some light on joliat was he a a result of morenz or was he a driving force in his own right
1933-34 Hart Trophy winner:



http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/MTL/1934.html

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07-08-2014, 03:38 PM
  #262
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This thread contains a lot of information about Soviet players, especially those who played between 1962 and 1982: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...d.php?t=565254

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07-08-2014, 11:06 PM
  #263
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Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
He was also great in the 1974 SS. IIRC, Yakushev has great stats against "real" opponents (Canada, NHL clubs, CSSR), something like 1.25 PPG, higher than Mikhailov. His goal in the 1976 OG final against CSSR tied the game.

Don't know the comparable stats for Firsov.

He was also the driving force behind Spartak 1976 victory against the mighty CSKA (best sniper that year). I daresay he had the higher peak and prime than Mikhailov.
Very doubtful i will rank Yakushev higher than Firsov and Mikhailov, but since drafting Yakushev in the 2013 ATD i sure have noticed this about him and he will sure gain from it in my list. Perhaps the "most NHL ready" soviet prospect.

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07-09-2014, 04:11 AM
  #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
He was also great in the 1974 SS. IIRC, Yakushev has great stats against "real" opponents (Canada, NHL clubs, CSSR), something like 1.25 PPG, higher than Mikhailov. His goal in the 1976 OG final against CSSR tied the game.
I think that Yakushev had about 1 PPG vs. NHL clubs. Theokritos' 'minibio' --> http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...95&postcount=5
The whole thread here: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1691169

It's certainly not bad, though.

I don't know about Yakushev's PPG in games vs. CSSR, but according to Chidlovski's site, he scored 17 goals in 37 games against Czechoslovakia. If that's accurate, I very much doubt that he was even a PPG player vs. CSSR.
http://www.chidlovski.net/1954/54_pl....asp?p_id=y001

One could go through the box-scores for the WHC/Olympic games in the 1960s/1970s (Czech Wikipedia has most of them), although there is only part of the games that Yakushev played vs. Czechoslovakia. Well, they are the most important ones, anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
Don't know the comparable stats for Firsov.
According to Chidlovski's site (again), Firsov scored 27 goals in 35 games against Canada. Of course, the Canadian teams he faced were rarely really good. However, his GPG is still impressive IMO.
On Czechoslovakia Firsov scored 16 goals in 28 games.
http://www.chidlovski.net/1954/54_pl....asp?p_id=f010

Rather surprisingly, of the top 'modern' Soviet players, Petrov was the most impressive goal-scorer against Czechoslovakia: 33 goals in 53 games.
http://www.chidlovski.net/1954/54_pl....asp?p_id=p007

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
He was also the driving force behind Spartak 1976 victory against the mighty CSKA (best sniper that year). I daresay he had the higher peak and prime than Mikhailov.
But how many times was Mikhailov or Firsov the driving force behind his team, when CSKA e.g. defeated Spartak? I know at least a very tight final match of the 1970 European Cup between CSKA and Spartak in which Firsov was the King of the Ice (I already mentioned this in another thread). I think the Soviet league was a lot more even in the 1960s and 1970s than it would be in the 1980s, even though CSKA had the most of the talent even then. Also, there were no playoffs in the Soviet league (i.e. basically every game counted), so it was not necessarily a case of 'Yakushev destroying CSKA in 1976' or something like that.


Last edited by VMBM: 07-09-2014 at 04:21 AM.
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07-10-2014, 10:59 AM
  #265
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Originally Posted by VMBM View Post
Rather surprisingly, of the top 'modern' Soviet players, Petrov was the most impressive goal-scorer against Czechoslovakia: 33 goals in 53 games.
http://www.chidlovski.net/1954/54_pl....asp?p_id=p007
Surprisingly to who? You? Petrov is severely undervalued by some.

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07-10-2014, 11:33 AM
  #266
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Surprisingly to who? You? Petrov is severely undervalued by some.
No kidding. Placed below Maltsev on the Centers List *eyeroll*

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07-10-2014, 05:16 PM
  #267
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Completeness

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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
Very doubtful i will rank Yakushev higher than Firsov and Mikhailov, but since drafting Yakushev in the 2013 ATD i sure have noticed this about him and he will sure gain from it in my list. Perhaps the "most NHL ready" soviet prospect.
Alexander Yakushev was a complete LW. Could play any defined role from the classic European to the traditional NHL with variable linemates. Solid defensively, performed equally well as a lead or trailing winger on a line.

Excellent longevity for an elite Soviet.

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07-11-2014, 02:36 AM
  #268
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Surprisingly to who? You? Petrov is severely undervalued by some.
Mikhailov was usually the main goalscorer on the MPK line; he scored clearly more goals on Sweden, Finland and somewhat more on Canada than Petrov. Yet Mikhailov has only 21 goals in 57 games vs. Czechoslovakia - clearly less than Petrov's 33 in 53. This maybe suggests that Holecek had more problems with big slapshots than with wristers from the slot/near the net (= Mikhailov's 'domain'). Just a theory.

Petrov is severely undervalued? No kidding. I think I've been one of his most vocal supporters here on HFBoards.

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07-11-2014, 03:10 AM
  #269
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Does anyone still place Kharlamov above Makarov?

I think that 10 years ago, the question would've been reversed; i.e. is there anyone who has Makarov above Kharlamov? How the times have changed.
I agree that Makarov should be higher. It's maybe revisionism, but 'good' revisionism. When I started to acquire & watch old games over ten years ago, one of my first observations was: hey, Makarov is at least as good as Kharlamov! And he was seemingly a more consistent performer too. And then when you start to compare their accolades (I mean: the actual awards & achievements), it's almost no contest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
No kidding. Placed below Maltsev on the Centers List *eyeroll*
I think there were legitimate reasons for it, though; Soviet MVP voting, 3 WHC best forward awards to 0, more natural talent etc

But I do think that Petrov was too many places below Maltsev.


Last edited by VMBM: 07-11-2014 at 03:24 AM.
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07-11-2014, 09:32 AM
  #270
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Have i missed if a last date for submitting the list has been decided?

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07-11-2014, 02:32 PM
  #271
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Mark Recchi. I He in due to His longevity because His " peak" was in the early to mid 90's playing with Mario & Lindros as His Centers. Other then that, He never scored more then 34 Goals in a season and was basically a Jeremy Roenick type of Point getter later on in His career and Roenick of the top of My head, didn't make the Centers top 60 list.

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07-11-2014, 02:35 PM
  #272
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Mark Recchi. I He in due to His longevity because His " peak" was in the early to mid 90's playing with Mario & Lindros as His Centers. Other then that, He never scored more then 34 Goals in a season and was basically a Jeremy Roenick type of Point getter later on in His career and Roenick of the top of My head, didn't make the Centers top 60 list.
He finished tied for 60th until the overtime round.

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07-11-2014, 02:38 PM
  #273
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Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
I guessing this means I should have them all in the top 80, save for Mosienko, apparently?

I am only on my 2nd draft of my list, not final by any stretch. I am confident in probably up until 40. I will continue to go back and adjust and shuffle. Maybe there is something I missed that I will see when I look deeper. Maybe not.

Feel free to compare the 4 in case the multitudes (or just me) are completely out to lunch on them.
Not saying that Killion is trying to influence Your voting, but try and not let others influence Your vote. Don't change Your list because of other potential more experienced voters say something that might disagree from Your own opinion. Just try and do Your best and make Your list and not worry but what others think.

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07-11-2014, 02:40 PM
  #274
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How many lists did Mike Gartner and Glenn Anderson make?
Both are in with Me. Maybe not top 40, but They are in the below range.

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07-11-2014, 02:42 PM
  #275
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I used to be more of career guy but during the centers project I really got behind the idea of how exclusive it is in history to be in the discussion for the best player in the world and/or at your position as well.

Being the best for any period of time (or in the mix) is more favorable than being simply very good to excellent over a long period of time IMO.
I personally think that You almost have to be on both sides of the fence during a project like this. Sometimes a player might not be a " peak" player, but They were very steady for a long period of time ( EXAMPLE Ron Francis during the Centers project)

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