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HOH Top-60 Wingers Project - Preliminary & General Discussion Thread

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Old
07-19-2014, 10:48 PM
  #351
Art of Sedinery
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I have him at 4, had him at 5 behind Lafleur at first, but bumped him up. Would be surprised to see anyone have him higher than 4, or lower than 6 or 7.

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07-20-2014, 12:58 AM
  #352
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Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
I have him at 4, had him at 5 behind Lafleur at first, but bumped him up. Would be surprised to see anyone have him higher than 4, or lower than 6 or 7.
I would not be surprised to see a few people have him lower than that - he was quite the polarizing player for some time. I will not be one of them.

Strongly disagree with whoever said Jagr's longevity is nearly as impressive as Howe's. His longevity as an elite player at least isn't even close. That's not even an insult though.

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07-20-2014, 01:03 AM
  #353
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I would not be surprised to see a few people have him lower than that - he was quite the polarizing player for some time. I will not be one of them.
Seriously , the top 5 wingers are locks as far as I'm concerned.I think there's quite the gap between 5th and 6th.The gap is smaller between 4th and 5th.

Ranking 2-3-4-5 can be tricky though.

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07-20-2014, 01:07 AM
  #354
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Originally Posted by Jafar View Post
Seriously , the top 5 wingers are locks as far as I'm concerned.I think there's quite the gap between 5th and 6th.The gap is smaller between 4th and 5th.

Ranking 2-3-4-5 can be tricky though.
I don't entirely agree (I think 2-4 are close, as are 5-7 and 8-10), but I think that's more a topic for Round 2 discussion.

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07-20-2014, 01:10 AM
  #355
BenchBrawl
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't entirely agree, but I think that's more a topic for Round 2 discussion.
I'm curious as to why you don't entirely agree.Frankly I'm surprised.

It's very tempting to debate it right now but I'll wait for the appropriate time and place.

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07-20-2014, 06:27 AM
  #356
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I wont be submitting a list. I have too much things to occupy me with so that i feel i would risk sending in a bad preliminary list that would draw this project down. Hopefully i can take part in the discussions during Vote 2.

If anyone feels like me, please dont send in a top-80.

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07-20-2014, 12:27 PM
  #357
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
I wont be submitting a list. I have too much things to occupy me with so that i feel i would risk sending in a bad preliminary list that would draw this project down. Hopefully i can take part in the discussions during Vote 2.

If anyone feels like me, please dont send in a top-80.
Only people who submit a list can vote in round 2, just so you know... you can of course participate in the discussion though.

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07-20-2014, 12:28 PM
  #358
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^ I promise I wont send in a sketchy list spearheaded by Jack Laviolette.

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07-20-2014, 12:32 PM
  #359
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Mats Naslund? He doesn't deserve any consideration whatsoever.

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07-20-2014, 12:49 PM
  #360
vadim sharifijanov
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I would not be surprised to see a few people have him lower than that - he was quite the polarizing player for some time. I will not be one of them.

Strongly disagree with whoever said Jagr's longevity is nearly as impressive as Howe's. His longevity as an elite player at least isn't even close. That's not even an insult though.
longevity of the '90s generation will be interesting to discuss. unlike horton or howe or delvecchio, you can't just look at the age of the guy's last season and say "wow, he played until..."

to varying degrees and for different reasons, jagr, selanne, shanahan, and others had down years in the DPE and then bounced back in big and mostly unforeseen ways post-second lockout. guys like robitaille, brett hull, had their own down periods (recchi too) and were rejuvenated by changes in teams.

i don't know the point here; just that it's kind of a funny generation (or two generations) where most elite wingers' careers came with a dip and a resurgence, rather than the normal jari kurri-esque career arc.

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07-20-2014, 01:08 PM
  #361
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Mats Naslund? He doesn't deserve any consideration whatsoever.
He's better than Bill Barber.

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07-20-2014, 02:21 PM
  #362
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Originally Posted by the edler View Post
He's better than Bill Barber.
Not sure what Barber has to do with this (the fact that I'm a Flyers fan?), but I wouldn't go that far. Barber is one of the most overrated players in the ATD, and should go hundreds of picks later than he does.

He certainly benefited from playing with Clarke. Barber's 7 year VsX is better (68.59 to 63.52), but the gap isn't that big due to the linemate difference. Barber has by far the best season among the two, then Naslund has the second and third best, and Barber has three other seasons better than Naslund's third best. However, Naslund only has those 7 years of good NHL production (VsX over 40) and Barber has 12. Naslund probably would have had another year or two of good production in the NHL had he not left/come earlier, but the longevity edge still goes to Barber.

Both were good two-way players, probably a wash there. Barber's AS record is significantly better. They shouldn't be 248 picks apart in the ATD, but Naslund isn't better.

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07-20-2014, 03:23 PM
  #363
Art of Sedinery
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Originally Posted by the edler View Post
He's better than Bill Barber.
I don't know about anyone else, but I didn't give Barber much consideration either.

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07-20-2014, 05:52 PM
  #364
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I would not be surprised to see a few people have him lower than that - he was quite the polarizing player for some time. I will not be one of them.

Strongly disagree with whoever said Jagr's longevity is nearly as impressive as Howe's. His longevity as an elite player at least isn't even close. That's not even an insult though.
Jagr is top 5 for sure for Me. Could be higher.

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07-20-2014, 05:53 PM
  #365
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Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
I don't know about anyone else, but I didn't give Barber much consideration either.
Barber is in the top 60-70 for Me.

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Old
07-20-2014, 06:55 PM
  #366
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Originally Posted by ted1971 View Post
Barber is in the top 60-70 for Me.
I dunno. He was a very good player, but lacked longevity and a really high peak. One really good season. Played with an all-time great.

Looking at his stat sheet it reminded me of a slightly better Tony Tanti.

His AS selections are a little fishy. His 1 1st team AS selection was legit, but...

78/79 AS voting:

1. Clark Gillies
2. Bill Barber
3. Steve Shutt
4. Bob Gainey
5. Brian Sutter
6. Rick Middleton
10. Bob Macmillan
15. Dave Taylor

78/79 LW Scoring:

1. Bob MacMillan - 108
2. Guy Chouinard - 107
3. Dave Taylor - 91
3. Clark Gilles - 91
5. Rick Middleton - 86
6. Eric Vail - 83
7. Bill Barber - 80
7. Brian Sutter - 80


80/81 AS Voting:

1. Charlie Simmer
2. Bill Barber
3. Steve Shutt
4. Bob Bourne
5. Anton Stastny
8. Jacques Richard
13. Rick Kehoe

80/81 LW Scoring:

1. Charlie Simmer - 105
2. Jacques Richard - 103
3. Rick Kehoe - 88
4. Bill Barber - 85
4. Anton Stastny - 85

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07-20-2014, 09:02 PM
  #367
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Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
I dunno. He was a very good player, but lacked longevity and a really high peak. One really good season. Played with an all-time great.

Looking at his stat sheet it reminded me of a slightly better Tony Tanti.

His AS selections are a little fishy. His 1 1st team AS selection was legit, but...

78/79 AS voting:

1. Clark Gillies
2. Bill Barber
3. Steve Shutt
4. Bob Gainey
5. Brian Sutter
6. Rick Middleton
10. Bob Macmillan
15. Dave Taylor

78/79 LW Scoring:

1. Bob MacMillan - 108
2. Guy Chouinard - 107
3. Dave Taylor - 91
3. Clark Gilles - 91
5. Rick Middleton - 86
6. Eric Vail - 83
7. Bill Barber - 80
7. Brian Sutter - 80


80/81 AS Voting:

1. Charlie Simmer
2. Bill Barber
3. Steve Shutt
4. Bob Bourne
5. Anton Stastny
8. Jacques Richard
13. Rick Kehoe

80/81 LW Scoring:

1. Charlie Simmer - 105
2. Jacques Richard - 103
3. Rick Kehoe - 88
4. Bill Barber - 85
4. Anton Stastny - 85
Many of those players ahead of him in scoring weren't LWs, but received some votes there due to possible confusion over which position they played. Chounaird was a centre. Richard, Kehoe and Middleton were RWs. Removing them, Barber's point finishes among LWs align more closely with his All-Star selections.

Barber was also better defensively than most of 1st-line wingers of the 70s. He and Clarke were the Flyers two primary penalty-killing forwards during most of his career.

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07-20-2014, 09:36 PM
  #368
Art of Sedinery
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Originally Posted by reckoning View Post
Many of those players ahead of him in scoring weren't LWs, but received some votes there due to possible confusion over which position they played. Chounaird was a centre. Richard, Kehoe and Middleton were RWs. Removing them, Barber's point finishes among LWs align more closely with his All-Star selections.

Barber was also better defensively than most of 1st-line wingers of the 70s. He and Clarke were the Flyers two primary penalty-killing forwards during most of his career.
Well I primarily looked at the players who got votes for LW. But if non-LW's could get votes at LW, it is very possible that LW's got votes elsewhere, no?

Regardless, he was 18th in total scoring in 78/79, and 22nd in 80/81.

And while I'll have to trust you on the defensive play, his highest Selke finish was 13th in 81/82, where he received just 3 3rd place votes.

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07-20-2014, 10:19 PM
  #369
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
Well I primarily looked at the players who got votes for LW. But if non-LW's could get votes at LW, it is very possible that LW's got votes elsewhere, no?

Regardless, he was 18th in total scoring in 78/79, and 22nd in 80/81.

And while I'll have to trust you on the defensive play, his highest Selke finish was 13th in 81/82, where he received just 3 3rd place votes.
Barber had kind of a short prime (perhaps a fair criticism), and it was mainly over by the time the Selke was created

Barber is far from a lock to make my list (and I have questioned his HHOF-worthiness in the past), but I would not call a two-way player's All-Star results tainted because one-way players scored more than him.


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07-20-2014, 10:34 PM
  #370
Art of Sedinery
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Barber had kind of a short prime (perhaps a fair criticism), and it was mainly over by the time the Selke was created

Barber is far from a lock to make my list (and I have questioned his HHOF-worthiness in the past), but I would not call a two-way player's All-Star results tainted because one-way players scored more than him.
Fair enough. Though for the record I didn't say they were tainted, simply that they seemed a little fishy.

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07-21-2014, 07:42 AM
  #371
ted1971
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Barber had kind of a short prime (perhaps a fair criticism), and it was mainly over by the time the Selke was created

Barber is far from a lock to make my list (and I have questioned his HHOF-worthiness in the past), but I would not call a two-way player's All-Star results tainted because one-way players scored more than him.
Agreed. An All Star should be and was for well rounded players, not just for those who scored the most points or the most goals.

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07-21-2014, 09:41 PM
  #372
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Originally Posted by Darth Yoda View Post
I wont be submitting a list. I have too much things to occupy me with so that i feel i would risk sending in a bad preliminary list that would draw this project down. Hopefully i can take part in the discussions during Vote 2.

If anyone feels like me, please dont send in a top-80.
I don't think one needs to have a perfect list before the project.

There are some obvious guys in obvious teers then a whole lot of variance can take place.

As for Jagr there is a case for him being as high as 2nd but having him outside of the top 5 would be really weird as he scores high on virtually all metrics.

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07-21-2014, 09:46 PM
  #373
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Not sure what Barber has to do with this (the fact that I'm a Flyers fan?), but I wouldn't go that far. Barber is one of the most overrated players in the ATD, and should go hundreds of picks later than he does.

He certainly benefited from playing with Clarke. Barber's 7 year VsX is better (68.59 to 63.52), but the gap isn't that big due to the linemate difference. Barber has by far the best season among the two, then Naslund has the second and third best, and Barber has three other seasons better than Naslund's third best. However, Naslund only has those 7 years of good NHL production (VsX over 40) and Barber has 12. Naslund probably would have had another year or two of good production in the NHL had he not left/come earlier, but the longevity edge still goes to Barber.

Both were good two-way players, probably a wash there. Barber's AS record is significantly better. They shouldn't be 248 picks apart in the ATD, but Naslund isn't better.
I agree both guys are probably pretty close but Mats did play in Sweden, does that count for nothing?

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07-21-2014, 10:28 PM
  #374
BillyShoe1721
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I agree both guys are probably pretty close but Mats did play in Sweden, does that count for nothing?
I said Naslund would have had one or two more good seasons of NHL production had he come over earlier (came at 23 and left at 30, came back at 35 for one season).

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07-21-2014, 11:29 PM
  #375
Hardyvan123
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I said Naslund would have had one or two more good seasons of NHL production had he come over earlier (came at 23 and left at 30, came back at 35 for one season).
Yes i got that part, perhaps the last comment about Naslund not being better is what stuck more in my head though.

While Barber has the better single season it is with Clarke and Leach (when he really clicked with Clarke) while Mats is playing with Bobby smith and Kjell Dahlin?

we can agree to disagree, and I'm not really sure where I have either guy yet, but Mats has a strong case to being the better player IMO.

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