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HOH Top-60 Wingers Project - Preliminary & General Discussion Thread

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Old
08-02-2014, 09:56 PM
  #601
Hardyvan123
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FTR, I consider Krutov ineligible for my list.
I wouldn't go that far and maybe it's for reasons other than on ice performance and circumstances but to me team mates and situation is very important and Krutov failed miserably, ie he wasn't even an average NHL caliber type of player at any time after his NHL years, while all 4 other players on that Russian unit showed at least some signs as to why they should be on their respective lists.

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08-02-2014, 10:33 PM
  #602
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I think Krutov ended up 73rd or something random near that on mylist. I'd be surprised if anybody has him in their top 60 no matter the off-ice circumstances.

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08-03-2014, 02:51 AM
  #603
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I think Krutov ended up 73rd or something random near that on mylist. I'd be surprised if anybody has him in their top 60 no matter the off-ice circumstances.
Top 4-5 Soviet winger of all time, but you don't think a single person will have him in his top 60?

Funny how drug use was never an issue when ranking Tim Horton, who died with performance enhancing drugs in his system, or Grant Fuhr, who was suspended by the NHL for drug use.

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08-03-2014, 05:10 AM
  #604
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Originally Posted by Ursaguy View Post
I think Krutov ended up 73rd or something random near that on mylist. I'd be surprised if anybody has him in their top 60 no matter the off-ice circumstances.
Sorry, but this kind of ignorant comments is why I unfortunately think this project will not give the Soviet players enough credit. I can imagine you didn't watch Soviet or Krutov play very much? And you don't even seem interested, you just take the NHL stats of this past his prime Soviet player and assume he wasn't very good.

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08-03-2014, 06:44 AM
  #605
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Krutov's season in Vancouver gets blown a bit out of proportion. Yes it was bad, but he was culturally shell shocked and on pace for 46 points while Larionov was on pace for 49. Big difference. Both had a hard time to adapt, and then Larionov managed to carve out a role as a defensive niche kind of player who rode some shotgun offensively on Bure in Vancouver, Makarov in San Jose, and Fedorov in Detroit.

Krutov's 49th on my list.

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08-03-2014, 08:39 AM
  #606
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Originally Posted by steve141 View Post
Top 4-5 Soviet winger of all time, but you don't think a single person will have him in his top 60?

Funny how drug use was never an issue when ranking Tim Horton, who died with performance enhancing drugs in his system, or Grant Fuhr, who was suspended by the NHL for drug use.
If Krutov did use PEDs, what are the chances that no other stars of the Soviet era used them?

By the way, Krutov is a no-brainer for my list.

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08-03-2014, 09:02 AM
  #607
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
If Krutov did use PEDs, what are the chances that no other stars of the Soviet era used them?
Off-Topic: The same question can of course be asked, and has been asked, about Tim Horton's Leafs and Grant Fuhr's Oilers. I'd prefer not though, since all we have are rumours.

On-Topic: As far as I can recall none of the players with a realistic chance of making this list ever had a positive doping test, so singling out some while letting others off the hook seems strange.


Last edited by steve141: 08-03-2014 at 09:07 AM.
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08-03-2014, 09:14 AM
  #608
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Sorry, but this kind of ignorant comments is why I unfortunately think this project will not give the Soviet players enough credit. I can imagine you didn't watch Soviet or Krutov play very much? And you don't even seem interested, you just take the NHL stats of this past his prime Soviet player and assume he wasn't very good.
This isn't true at all. My lack of support for Krutov has nothing to do with country bias and everything to do with the fact that I value career accomplishments. His NHL season (which should NOT be past the prime of any top 60 winger ever. For gods sake the man was 29) was never even referenced by me, and definitely not in a context of comparing it to North American NHL players. Krutov was pretty good in Russia domestically-not nearly as good as Makarov or Kharlamov (who are both in my top 10, for the record), mind you, but solid. However, he pretty much burned out at 28. 28! That's just absurd. His limited prime was good enough for inclusion on my list, but I couldn't really throw support behind a man who decided that he didn't feel like being good at the young age of 28. His Olympic performances are decent, but you have guys like Kovalchuk who got 14 assists or something crazy like that on one of the weakest Russian hockey teams of the last 20 years.

The career mark is also why I rank him low among Europeans. I have 6 Russian wingers and Helmuts Balderis (Latvian I believe) inside my top 60, so the European guys are there. I don't have any overarching biases in that regard. I just do not believe that Vladimir Krutov is a top 5 Russian winger. If I said that I put Bill Cook over Mike Bossy for my 6th best Canadien winger I don't think anybody bats an eyelash, but since I'm talking about a land that isn't mine clearly it's unfair for me to not put 80 Russians on this list.

I was not here for earlier projects, so I understand a bit of frustration by some people to get more Europeans involved, but at the same time it feels like people are expecting us to overcompensate. X deserving centers missed that list, so you need to bump off your bottom X to throw more 2nd tier Europeans in. At the end of the day, if you disagree with my list, too bad. Even with all of the research and thinking involved, it is just an opinion. Don't like it? Make your own list. Put Mrutov wherever you see fit. But I've already submitted mine. If I looked at Krutov's NHL season and just that, he wouldn't be on my list at all.

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08-03-2014, 09:31 AM
  #609
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ursaguy View Post
This isn't true at all. My lack of support for Krutov has nothing to do with country bias and everything to do with the fact that I value career accomplishments. His NHL season (which should NOT be past the prime of any top 60 winger ever. For gods sake the man was 29) was never even referenced by me, and definitely not in a context of comparing it to North American NHL players. Krutov was pretty good in Russia domestically-not nearly as good as Makarov or Kharlamov (who are both in my top 10, for the record), mind you, but solid. However, he pretty much burned out at 28. 28! That's just absurd. His limited prime was good enough for inclusion on my list, but I couldn't really throw support behind a man who decided that he didn't feel like being good at the young age of 28. His Olympic performances are decent, but you have guys like Kovalchuk who got 14 assists or something crazy like that on one of the weakest Russian hockey teams of the last 20 years.

The career mark is also why I rank him low among Europeans. I have 6 Russian wingers and Helmuts Balderis (Latvian I believe) inside my top 60, so the European guys are there. I don't have any overarching biases in that regard. I just do not believe that Vladimir Krutov is a top 5 Russian winger. If I said that I put Bill Cook over Mike Bossy for my 6th best Canadien winger I don't think anybody bats an eyelash, but since I'm talking about a land that isn't mine clearly it's unfair for me to not put 80 Russians on this list.

I was not here for earlier projects, so I understand a bit of frustration by some people to get more Europeans involved, but at the same time it feels like people are expecting us to overcompensate. X deserving centers missed that list, so you need to bump off your bottom X to throw more 2nd tier Europeans in. At the end of the day, if you disagree with my list, too bad. Even with all of the research and thinking involved, it is just an opinion. Don't like it? Make your own list. Put Mrutov wherever you see fit. But I've already submitted mine. If I looked at Krutov's NHL season and just that, he wouldn't be on my list at all.
Player A: 4 WC AS team appearances, 2 best forward at WC, 7x 1st team Soviet AS, Soviet top 10s of 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 8, and Soviet MVP voting finishes of 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 5

Player B: 3 WC AS team appearances, 1 best forward at WC, 7x 1st team Soviet AS, Soviet top 10s of 1, 2, 3, 5, 5, 7, and Soviet MVP voting finishes of 1, 2, 2, 2, 4, 4, 5, 5

Would you like to take a guess as to who is Player A and Player B?

Player A is Krutov, Player B is Kharlamov

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08-03-2014, 09:49 AM
  #610
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I think I already did.
Good -- now expecting a terrible backlash.

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08-03-2014, 09:52 AM
  #611
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Originally Posted by plusandminus View Post
Sorry, but this kind of ignorant comments is why I unfortunately think this project will not give the Soviet players enough credit. I can imagine you didn't watch Soviet or Krutov play very much? And you don't even seem interested, you just take the NHL stats of this past his prime Soviet player and assume he wasn't very good.
I also think this project will not give enough credit to black players.

You see what I did there?

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08-03-2014, 09:53 AM
  #612
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Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
Player A: 4 WC AS team appearances, 2 best forward at WC, 7x 1st team Soviet AS, Soviet top 10s of 2, 2, 2, 2, 3, 3, 3, 8, and Soviet MVP voting finishes of 1, 2, 2, 3, 3, 5

Player B: 3 WC AS team appearances, 1 best forward at WC, 7x 1st team Soviet AS, Soviet top 10s of 1, 2, 3, 5, 5, 7, and Soviet MVP voting finishes of 1, 2, 2, 2, 4, 4, 5, 5

Would you like to take a guess as to who is Player A and Player B?

Player A is Krutov, Player B is Kharlamov
That looks like an ineligible player, then like a somewhat overrated player, both players having in common a short prime, a situation that can be explained to a certain extent of course.

(oh snap, I got it right, thanks white font)

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08-03-2014, 11:08 AM
  #613
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by steve141 View Post
Off-Topic: The same question can of course be asked, and has been asked, about Tim Horton's Leafs and Grant Fuhr's Oilers. I'd prefer not though, since all we have are rumours.

On-Topic: As far as I can recall none of the players with a realistic chance of making this list ever had a positive doping test, so singling out some while letting others off the hook seems strange.
I think this is being a little naïve.

The Soviets were using testosterone on their Olympic weightlifters in the 50s. Their National Teams in all sports were primarily propaganda tools. And the hockey team was their crown jewel. Under those circumstances its a lot more likely PEDs would be used by Soviet players.

That said, its all speculative and should play no part in the rankings here.

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08-03-2014, 12:32 PM
  #614
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That said, its all speculative and should play no part in the rankings here.
Exactly. Lets move along here folks. Rumor & innuendo. No thanks.

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08-03-2014, 01:15 PM
  #615
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Exactly. Lets move along here folks. Rumor & innuendo. No thanks.
Yes, PEDs are a dicey subject and really, we should be providing links to valid sources if we are going to be talking about them.

But perhaps more important to this thread:

Quote:
[*]Preliminary Discussion Thread
  • Anyone may participate in this thread, even if he does not plan on taking part in the voting phase
  • Any winger may be discussed
  • Posters are encouraged to share information about players in this thread and to take information shared into account when constructing their own lists
  • Brief comparisons between players are permitted, but detailed cases and debates should be saved for Round 2 of Voting
  • Please do NOT rank players outright in the preliminary thread

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08-03-2014, 04:15 PM
  #616
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Krutov's season in Vancouver gets blown a bit out of proportion. Yes it was bad, but he was culturally shell shocked and on pace for 46 points while Larionov was on pace for 49. Big difference. Both had a hard time to adapt, and then Larionov managed to carve out a role as a defensive niche kind of player who rode some shotgun offensively on Bure in Vancouver, Makarov in San Jose, and Fedorov in Detroit.

Krutov's 49th on my list.
Krutov is off my list currently, I think.

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08-03-2014, 04:39 PM
  #617
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Krutov's season in Vancouver gets blown a bit out of proportion. Yes it was bad, but he was culturally shell shocked and on pace for 46 points while Larionov was on pace for 49. Big difference. Both had a hard time to adapt, and then Larionov managed to carve out a role as a defensive niche kind of player who rode some shotgun offensively on Bure in Vancouver, Makarov in San Jose, and Fedorov in Detroit.

Krutov's 49th on my list.
Same!

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08-03-2014, 04:59 PM
  #618
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Krutov is off my list currently, I think.
Based on what?

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08-03-2014, 05:04 PM
  #619
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when is the deadline for lists again?

and will it be extended as most of these deadlines often are?

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08-03-2014, 06:12 PM
  #620
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Here is a great game from 1987, Canada-Soviet, by many thought of as one of the best games ever. Plenty of stars, like Makarov, Krutov, Fetisov, Kasatonov and other Soviet stars. Canada has most of their players in their prime, like Gretzky, Coffey, Bourque and Gilmour, with the oldest being 28 and the youngest being 21 or so (Mario Lemieux). Great play by Grant Fuhr.
I mention this because I think it's a game that makes prime Krutov justice. He's quick, works hard defensively, reads the play well, great flow, scores, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc8AgLagRcY

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08-03-2014, 06:31 PM
  #621
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Originally Posted by plusandminus View Post
Here is a great game from 1987, Canada-Soviet, by many thought of as one of the best games ever. Plenty of stars, like Makarov, Krutov, Fetisov, Kasatonov and other Soviet stars. Canada has most of their players in their prime, like Gretzky, Coffey, Bourque and Gilmour, with the oldest being 28 and the youngest being 21 or so (Mario Lemieux). Great play by Grant Fuhr.
I mention this because I think it's a game that makes prime Krutov justice. He's quick, works hard defensively, reads the play well, great flow, scores, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cc8AgLagRcY
Heck I could post almost any game from his Canuck days and if they exist from post Canuck days and it's a wash (his performance in the Swiss and Swedish divsion 3 leagues leaves something to be desired as well).

Krutov has his strengths and weaknesses as a candidate in the top 80 wingers list but he is probably on the bubble unless one ignores his team situation and is a strictly a peak/prime guy.

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08-03-2014, 06:43 PM
  #622
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I've been staying out of the Krutov argument mainly because I don't really know how helpful it is to the project to go in depth about a player before the main discussion phase.

But anyway, I had Krutov in the 40s, and I was actually wondering if I was overly punishing him for the questions about his career.

I mean, if you take his accomplishments at face value, he's easily better than Goulet and one wouldn't have a problem arguing he should be on a similar level as Jari Kurri. Indeed, he may have peaked higher than Kurri.

Now, I do think that there are questions surrounding Krutov that are certainly worth addressing (mainly during the detailed discussion phase) and that there is enough credibility there where his accomplishments during the 80s shouldn't be quite taken at face value. But let's not forget that his "on paper" accomplishments are quite impressive before he fell off the face of the earth:

Soviet First All-Star Team (1982, 1983, 1984, 1985, 1986, 1987, 1988)
Soviet Most Valuable Player (1987)

IIHF World Championships Best Forward (1986, 1987)
IIHF World Championships All-Star Team (1983, 1985, 1986, 1987)
Canada Cup All-Star Team (1987)

Long ATD profile here: http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh...&postcount=158

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08-03-2014, 06:54 PM
  #623
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Heck I could post almost any game from his Canuck days and if they exist from post Canuck days and it's a wash (his performance in the Swiss and Swedish divsion 3 leagues leaves something to be desired as well).

Krutov has his strengths and weaknesses as a candidate in the top 80 wingers list but he is probably on the bubble unless one ignores his team situation and is a strictly a peak/prime guy.
Again, I think it's unfair to judge Soviet players (especially veterans like Krutov) based on what they did in the NHL. New country, new language, new culture, homesickness, etc. played a part in some of them, like Krutov, not adapting very well. It's not at all like the Swedes who learn English from young age and coming from a "western" country, or the Stastny (like Peter) brothers being fairly young and having each other.

Bobby Orr didn't do much after age 30, nor did Mike Bossy. There are Canadians too who (usually due to injuries) didn't do very well after age 30, but who is still respected for what they did in their prime.

Finally (and I wrote a couple of years ago too)... Why are things "always" from a NHL/North American point of view? Is it that certain that guys like Messier, Gartner, Bobby Clarke etc would have been All Star players in a Soviet environment? In the previous projects it was clear that some was very "home blind" (is that's how you say it?), to the point where one doesn't seem to be aware of it.

Anyway, to comment upon previous replies, it's nice that people here appreciate the greatness of Makarov.

(Edit: I wrote the above before I saw TDMM's reply.)

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08-03-2014, 08:18 PM
  #624
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Based on what?
Based on that He's not currently on My list.

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08-03-2014, 08:24 PM
  #625
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Now, I do think that there are questions surrounding Krutov that are certainly worth addressing (mainly during the detailed discussion phase) and that there is enough credibility there where his accomplishments during the 80s shouldn't be quite taken at face value. But let's not forget that his "on paper" accomplishments are quite impressive before he fell off the face of the earth:
There are two ways I could see someone interpret Krutov's later career.

a) Krutov got 'exposed' a as Hockey player and he wasn't good afterall. How exactly does that make sense when you ever watched him play and how did he manage to receive so many individual accolades? Why was he rated higher than Larionov?
b) Krutov couldn't handle the transition to a different culture as a ~30 year old due to whatever reason it might be. Why should this erase what he accomplished earlier?

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I also think this project will not give enough credit to black players.

You see what I did there?
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Based on that He's not currently on My list.
Great start for this project.

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