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HOH Top-60 Wingers Project - Preliminary & General Discussion Thread

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Old
07-01-2014, 12:50 AM
  #101
kmad
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When do you start accepting lists seventieslord?

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07-01-2014, 01:01 AM
  #102
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmad View Post
When do you start accepting lists seventieslord?
I originally said July 24th, but I'm seeing grumblings that it's too early. Is that accurate?

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07-01-2014, 02:19 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Talent wise not so but injuries did affect their careers so that they will be off most lists one would think.

Stevens off course has the best peak of any of these guys but it was Mario influenced.

The real question is that influence more or less the influence of other players on guys like Shutt and Barber who will probably be on more lists than Stevens.

Roberts and Nolan also suffer from injuries but probably created much more of their resume than say Stevens or Shutt or Barber but will that be reflected in the lists?
I repeat, they are not relevant in a discussion about the top-60 wingers of all-time. Least of all Owen Nolan.

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07-01-2014, 02:58 AM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I originally said July 24th, but I'm seeing grumblings that it's too early. Is that accurate?
Ha, opposite in my opinion. My list will be ready to go by the end of the week.

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07-01-2014, 03:02 AM
  #105
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Quote:
Bruce Stuart
He's eligible for the winger list? I thought I knew he was a center, and a rover. Early rovers count as wingers or what?

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07-01-2014, 08:45 AM
  #106
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I do have a Top-60 ready since months.

Paul Thompson isn't mentionned in the guidelines, and I have him on my list. I feel like he's clearly a winger for our purposes, even though he played a while at center at the beginning of his career with the Rangers. Besides, we didn't vote him as a center (with cause, I might add).

Anybody concurs?

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07-01-2014, 10:33 AM
  #107
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
I originally said July 24th, but I'm seeing grumblings that it's too early. Is that accurate?
My grumbling was when I thought that was the deadline to submit. Definitely fine to start accepting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MXD View Post
I do have a Top-60 ready since months.

Paul Thompson isn't mentionned in the guidelines, and I have him on my list. I feel like he's clearly a winger for our purposes, even though he played a while at center at the beginning of his career with the Rangers. Besides, we didn't vote him as a center (with cause, I might add).

Anybody concurs?
He's definitely a winger

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Old
07-01-2014, 12:28 PM
  #108
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Any other non-NHL Europeans have a reasonable shot of making the list other than these guys?

USSR:

Helmuts Balderis
Vselovod Bobrov
Anatoli Firsov
Sergei Kapustin
Valeri Kharlamov
Vladimir Krutov
Sergei Makarov
Boris Mikhailov
Viktor Shalimov
Vladimir Vikulov
Alexander Yakushev

CSSR:

Vladimir Martinec
Jiri Holik

Any other CSSR players have a legit chance? Marian Stastny? Jiri Lala?

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Old
07-01-2014, 02:20 PM
  #109
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I don't understand the first one.

As for the second one, yes. In addition to his NHL resume (after the age of 30), Bill Cook has this WCHL resume (from my Bill Cook ATD profile):

WCHL career (ages 26-29)

1923 (age 26): 8th in WCHL scoring when probably about 1/4 of the talent was in the WCHL. Good, not great. This was Bill Cook's first professional season.

1924 (age 27): led the WCHL in goals, assists, and points. The WCHL had surpassed the PCHA by this point - they played an interlocking schedule and Cook led the combined leagues in scoring. The NHL still had about half the talent, however (maybe slightly less). Cook led his league in scoring 40-34 (by 18%), the widest margin of any of the leaders. A decent chance of being the Art Ross winner in a consolidated league.

1925 (age 28): Missed 3 games and finished 1 point behind the two players who tied for the scoring championship. 3rd in points and goals, 5th in assists.

1926 (age 29): led the WCHL (now called WHL) in points and goals by very large margins (6th in assists). Almost certainly the Art Ross winner in a consolidated league.

After 1926, the WHL folded and the best players joined the NHL. Led by Bill Cook former WHL players were all over the NHL scoring boards. 3 of the top 4, 6 of the top 10, and 11 of the top 20 NHL scorers in 1927 had spent the previous year in the WHL.

Overall Points: 8th (1923), 1st (1924), 3rd (1925), 1st (1926)
Overall Goals: 1st (1924), 3rd (1925), 1st (1926)
Overall Assists: 1st (1924), 5th (1925), 6th (1926)

So yes, in addition to being a power forward type, he likely wins 3-4 Art Rosses in a consolidated league (he won 2 in the NHL after the WCHL folded)
Cook was 2nd in the WCHL in assists in 1922-23. The only player outside of Edmonton to hit 10+, and more than anyone in the PCHA or NHL.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Cook should be a lock for the top 20 but not necessarily for the top 10, his playoff record for instance isn't top 10 material or even really close.
3rd in playoff goals and 2nd in playoff points from 1927 to 1935 is not even close to top 10? Took 3 more playoffs for someone else to surpass his 24 points.

Captained the Rangers to 2 Cups, and they've only won 2 more in almost 80 years.

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Old
07-01-2014, 06:37 PM
  #110
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Anyone willing to take a look at my top 80 first draft? Just want to make sure I'm not out to lunch on some of the earlier guys and don't have any glaring omissions that didn't make my initial list for whatever reason.

Any takers? Feel free to PM me.

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Old
07-01-2014, 08:45 PM
  #111
ted1971
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Dit Clapper, D or Winger? Also, any WHA guys making anyone's final cut yet? Andres Hedberg?

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07-01-2014, 08:47 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddytheeagle20 View Post
anybody with any knowledge of the 20-30s nhl can they spread some light on joliat was he a a result of morenz or was he a driving force in his own right
I think his Hart Trophy was largely the product of him continuing his strong level of play without Morenz (and later without Morenz at 100%), but that really was his last big season. I see it sort of how I see Kurri having the one big season without Gretzky at the end in Edmonton: it's proof that he was talented enough on his own, but not necessarily proof that he would have reached the same heights without the best player in the game.

But Joliat also came in before Morenz, and was more productive than Berlinguette had been despite the Canadiens scoring less as a whole. Boucher had hit some highs with Joliat before Morenz was even in the picture as well. Overall, I just think that Joliat's speed was enough that he would have found success even without Morenz.

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07-01-2014, 08:48 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by ted1971 View Post
Dit Clapper, D or Winger?
He was ruled a defenseman, I believe.

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Old
07-01-2014, 08:56 PM
  #114
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Few more names:
Ace Bailey
Bun Cook
Cully Wilson

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07-01-2014, 09:37 PM
  #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67 View Post
Cook was 2nd in the WCHL in assists in 1922-23. The only player outside of Edmonton to hit 10+, and more than anyone in the PCHA or NHL.



3rd in playoff goals and 2nd in playoff points from 1927 to 1935 is not even close to top 10? Took 3 more playoffs for someone else to surpass his 24 points.

Captained the Rangers to 2 Cups, and they've only won 2 more in almost 80 years.
He isn't a top 10 in playoff performances for wingers IMO, regular season is where Cook's resume has him high on this list.

His playoff totals mask his 2 season 10-0-1-1 mark with a doughnut in 6 games in 29 and a 4-0-1-1.

Sorry but any top 10 list for wingers in the playoffs all time can't have those 10 games as close to 1/4 of his playoff resume.

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07-01-2014, 09:40 PM
  #116
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
He was ruled a defenseman, I believe.
Oh? Defenceman in Amateur & Junior, converted to Forward by Art Ross in 1927 playing RW from 1927/37, the converted back to Defence in 38/47. So sort of an even split.

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07-01-2014, 09:43 PM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ted1971 View Post
Dit Clapper, D or Winger? Also, any WHA guys making anyone's final cut yet? Andres Hedberg?
Tardif and Cloutier both are probably better bets (resume wise) than Hedberg who is maybe a top 100 but not sure if he makes anyone's top 80.

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07-01-2014, 09:45 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ted1971 View Post
Dit Clapper, D or Winger? Also, any WHA guys making anyone's final cut yet? Andres Hedberg?
http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/sh....php?t=1029907

Dit was voted the 24th best Dman in the top 60 project which would make him ineligible for the wingers list.

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07-02-2014, 01:48 AM
  #119
seventieslord
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
My grumbling was when I thought that was the deadline to submit. Definitely fine to start accepting.
So in other words, your post was that July 24th was too far away and not too close?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ted1971 View Post
Few more names:
Ace Bailey
Bun Cook
Cully Wilson
Cully Wilson is such a badass but he has no chance. Bailey and Cook, perhaps, if you really value two-way play.

I'm using a "Mike Gartner rule"... I am leaning towards Mike Gartner barely missing my list, and as such, whoever I consider listing has to at least be preferable to Gartner.

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07-02-2014, 02:15 AM
  #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Any other non-NHL Europeans have a reasonable shot of making the list other than these guys?

USSR:

Helmuts Balderis
Vselovod Bobrov
Anatoli Firsov
Sergei Kapustin
Valeri Kharlamov
Vladimir Krutov
Sergei Makarov
Boris Mikhailov
Viktor Shalimov
Vladimir Vikulov
Alexander Yakushev

CSSR:

Vladimir Martinec
Jiri Holik

Any other CSSR players have a legit chance? Marian Stastny? Jiri Lala?
I have Balderis, Bobrov, Firsov, Kharlamov, Krutov, Makarov, Mikhailov and Yakushev from that list

I was considering Yevgeni Babich, does he have no shot?

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07-02-2014, 04:02 AM
  #121
Theokritos
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If this thread is going to be open for three more weeks to gather names and resumes to help educate everybody, which is a good idea, then I think you shouldn't start to accept lists earlier on. Maybe a good case or an overlooked name is yet to be brought up. Like Seth Martin who was seemingly not given a lot of thought (if any) by early goaltender project submissions and subsequently didn't even come up for discussion and ranking in the second round.

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Old
07-02-2014, 04:04 AM
  #122
TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
So in other words, your post was that July 24th was too far away and not too close?
No, you originally said it was the deadline to submit lists. I thought it was a little early to be the deadline

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07-02-2014, 04:07 AM
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmad View Post
I have Balderis, Bobrov, Firsov, Kharlamov, Krutov, Makarov, Mikhailov and Yakushev from that list
Are you specifically referring to the Soviets only or is Martinec not on your list?

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07-02-2014, 04:12 AM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Theokritos View Post
Are you specifically referring to the Soviets only or is Martinec not on your list?
I haven't assessed any pre-NHL Czechs yet, so he's not on my list, which I'm building from scratch.

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Old
07-02-2014, 04:40 AM
  #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kmad View Post
I haven't assessed any pre-NHL Czechs yet, so he's not on my list, which I'm building from scratch.
That's fair, but on the other hand you expect to be ready by the end of the week?

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