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Tagging Rule - Revisited (Kane, Toews)

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07-01-2014, 01:23 PM
  #1
Hawkscap
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Tagging Rule - Revisited (Kane, Toews)

Anyone care to take a chance on explaining Tagging. The CBA makes it seem it is a little more complicated than being under the cap for 15-16 using this 14-15 cap.

It looks to me that the Hawks have a tagging problem signing Toews and Kane.

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07-01-2014, 02:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkscap View Post
Anyone care to take a chance on explaining Tagging. The CBA makes it seem it is a little more complicated than being under the cap for 15-16 using this 14-15 cap.

It looks to me that the Hawks have a tagging problem signing Toews and Kane.

I believe this is it:
“Tagging” is a rule in the CBA that prohibits a team from having more money committed to the following season than the current year’s salary cap.


They are probably projecting that $74 MM cap in 2015-16, but the tagging rule says they can't exceed this year's figure.

What are you seeing as more complicated? According to CapGeek, they have $43 MM committed for next season, with 13 contracts-- $24 MM in cap space.

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07-01-2014, 02:57 PM
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Here is the rule, It reads much differently than that.

(iii) A Club shall only be permitted to sign a Player to an "extension" of the
existing SPC in the amount of: (A) the SPC of the Player to be extended
(then included in the Club's Averaged Club Salary); plus (B) the Club's
Payroll Room in the current year; plus (C) the aggregate Averaged
Amounts of any other SPC or SPCs that expire at the end of such League
Year (to extent the Club has other such SPCs which are currently counting
in the Club's Averaged Club Salary); minus any previously Tagged
Payroll Room. The Tagging Rule referred to in paragraph (e)(iv)(C)
above will thereafter apply.


Illustration #1: A Club, during the 2012-13 League Year, has $1.5 million
of Payroll Room, and it has $4 million in Averaged Amount of SPCs
scheduled to expire at the end of the 2012-13 League Year, including the
$1 million Averaged Amount of Player B's SPC. The Club shall be
deemed to have $5.5 million of Tagged Payroll Room and may "extend"
Player B's SPC during the 2012-13 League Year with Player Salary and
Bonuses of up to an Averaged Amount of $5.5 million.


Illustration #2: A Club, during the 2012-13 League Year, is at the Upper
Limit (i.e., it has no Payroll Room) and it has $5 million in Averaged
Amount of other SPCs scheduled to expire at the end of the 2012-13
League Year. Earlier in the season, the Club tagged $3 million of Payroll
Room in order to acquire another SPC, with an Averaged Amount of $3
million. In addition, the Club has Player B's $750,000 SPC, which is also
scheduled to expire at the end of the season. The Club may "extend"
Player B's SPC prior to the end of the 2012-13 League Year with Player
Salary and Bonuses of up to an Averaged Amount of $2.75 million (the $5
million in expiring SPCs, minus the $3 million of already tagged Payroll
Room, plus Player B's $750,000 SPC then included in the Averaged Club
Salary), and the Club shall be deemed to have tagged another $2.75
million of Payroll Room


Using Toews

A) would be $6 mil
B) $0
c) Roughly $3 mi avg of Toews Kane Leddy Saad Oduya Regin Rundblad Regin Kruger expiring contracts

If I am reading this right, then Toews can only Pre sign $9 mil extension or wait to 7/1/15?


Last edited by Hawkscap: 07-01-2014 at 03:54 PM.
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07-01-2014, 03:06 PM
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Maybe the reason there were the rumors about trying to move Sharp?

So they have two such players, Kane and Toews.

They have to have room in excess of the tagged space (your example) for both in order to extend.

They currently have $24 MM available for next season--- not counting the tagged space.

What if you add that back and then Kane?

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07-01-2014, 03:52 PM
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If you use example #2 , it looks like they can only sign one players due to all the cheaper expiring contracts.

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07-01-2014, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkscap View Post
If you use example #2 , it looks like they can only sign one players due to all the cheaper expiring contracts.

Yes, I figured it would be pretty hard since they have them on a parallel course, expiring at the same time and similar amounts.

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07-01-2014, 05:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkscap View Post
Using Toews

A) would be $6 mil
B) $0
c) Roughly $3 mi avg of Toews Kane Leddy Saad Oduya Regin Rundblad Regin Kruger expiring contracts

If I am reading this right, then Toews can only Pre sign $9 mil extension or wait to 7/1/15?
(C) is Aggregate of the averaged contracts, I.e. totals. And you don't count Toews and Kane in that total as you can't both tag and sign a player. Tagging basically means "we're not going to re-sign this impending free agent".

P.s. I still think Anaheim violated the cap and tagging rules with Niedermeyers' "temporary retirement".

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07-01-2014, 06:00 PM
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One other thing to point out : let's say Chicago were to tag a player like Leddy. That would mean they can't make him a qualifying offer to retain him as an RFA. Unless they swap the tagging around to other player(s).

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07-01-2014, 06:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mouser View Post
(C) is Aggregate of the averaged contracts, I.e. totals. And you don't count Toews and Kane in that total as you can't both tag and sign a player. Tagging basically means "we're not going to re-sign this impending free agent".

P.s. I still think Anaheim violated the cap and tagging rules with Niedermeyers' "temporary retirement".

So I tagged Oduya Richards Rundblad $6 mil /3
$2 mil of tagged space, correct?

So then T&K can only sign for $7 mil?

Unless, they sign the infamous intent to sign contract which how they got around
the 50 man roster limit.

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07-01-2014, 06:45 PM
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It's Aggregate. So Oduya, Richards, Rundblad = $6m of tagging space.

Which would give the Hawks $3m each for Kane and Toews.


Edit: I would assume the Hawks tag Rozy for another $2m. The tricky bit is going to be how to deal with RFA's Saad, Leddy, and Kruger. Might not be able to re-sign those guys to extensions until after July 1st 2015 if Kane and Toews get contracts near the $10m each I'm expecting. The most popular option seems to be trading Bickell away.


Last edited by mouser: 07-01-2014 at 06:50 PM.
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07-01-2014, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mouser View Post
It's Aggregate. So Oduya, Richards, Rundblad = $6m of tagging space.

Which would give the Hawks $3m each for Kane and Toews.

I forgot Rozsival so add another $2.2 mil so $8.135 , $4 mil apiece puts then at $10.25 which takes all their tagging space.

Saad Leddy Kruger get QOs and then new contracts.

Thanks Mouser. Really appreciate it.

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07-01-2014, 10:20 PM
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The current years salary cap is increased by 10% on March 1st for the purpose of this rule.


I don't think you actually tag players on the last year of their contracts, but that extending a player or qualifying them comes back on the D part of the equation for subsequent extensions. It doesn't really make much difference unless contracts can be considered to be filed simultaneously.


Last edited by epo: 07-01-2014 at 10:29 PM.
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07-01-2014, 10:29 PM
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Quote:
The current years salary cap is increased by 10% on March 1st for the purpose of this rule.
Where is this in the CBA?

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07-01-2014, 10:42 PM
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50.5(c)(ii)(C)

For all League Years of this Agreement except the 2012-13 League Year (in which case an Upper Limit of $70.2 million shall be used for the purpose of calculating Tagged Payroll Room as defined in Section 50.5(e)(iv)(C)(2)), beginning on March 1 of a given League Year through June 30 of that League Year, solely for purposes of calculating the amount of Tagged Payroll Room available to each Club, the Upper Limit shall be increased by ten (10) percent.


Looks like the penalty of carryover bonus overages extends another season under this rule.


Last edited by epo: 07-01-2014 at 11:00 PM.
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07-02-2014, 05:13 AM
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I read "(C) the aggregate Averaged Amounts of any other SPC or SPCs that expire at the end of such League Year (to extent the Club has other such SPCs which are currently counting in the Club's Averaged Club Salary)" as "total AAV in expiring contracts." That's 26M at the minute, would go down if Rozi or Oduya are moved (yet another reason to launch Versteeg - hope you didn't buy any condos lately, Kris.

Looking at their example 2:


llustration #2: A Club, during the 2013-14 League Year, is at the Upper
Limit (i.e., it has no Payroll Room) and it has $20 million in Averaged
Amount of other SPCs
other = not the player in question scheduled to expire at the end of the 2013-14
League Year. Earlier in the season, the Club tagged $0
there is no earlier in the season, it's July 2 million of Payroll
Room in order to acquire another SPC, with an Averaged Amount of $0
million. In addition, the Club has Player B's $6,300,000 SPC, which is also
scheduled to expire at the end of the season. The Club may "extend"
Player B's SPC prior to the end of the 2013-14 League Year with Player
Salary and Bonuses
Kane and Toews are not eligible for performance bonuses of up to an Averaged Amount of $26 million (the $20
million in expiring SPCs, minus the $0 million of already tagged Payroll
Room, plus Player B's $6,300,000 SPC then included in the Averaged Club
Salary), and the Club shall be deemed to have tagged another $26
million of Payroll Room


Obviously one player can't sign a $26M contract. Say it's Rozi gets traded and they get 10M each, tagging room goes 24M > 14M > 4M > 3-4M bridge deal for Saad > no tagging space left, Leddy and Kruger have to go to RFA unless someone gets traded at the 2015 draft. The exact figures will depend on who gets traded and what 1988 make, but I don't think tagging is the major problem here.

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07-02-2014, 05:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by epo View Post
50.5(c)(ii)(C)

For all League Years of this Agreement except the 2012-13 League Year (in which case an Upper Limit of $70.2 million shall be used for the purpose of calculating Tagged Payroll Room as defined in Section 50.5(e)(iv)(C)(2)), beginning on March 1 of a given League Year through June 30 of that League Year, solely for purposes of calculating the amount of Tagged Payroll Room available to each Club, the Upper Limit shall be increased by ten (10) percent.


Looks like the penalty of carryover bonus overages extends another season under this rule.
Thanks

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07-02-2014, 01:48 PM
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I'm confused as to why this is an issue...

The Hawks are $2.2m over the salary cap right now... presumably, they'll trade somebody to get under that, and it won't be a player on a 1 year deal.

Kane & Toews expire next year at $6.3m each. Additionally, Oduya, Leddy, Roszival & Richards expire for a combined $10.3m.

What are Toews/Kane realistically going to sign for? $8m? $8.5m? They are fully aware that anything beyond that will put them in a very difficult spot to ice a team next year. Split that $10.3 in expiring contracts between them, and it's $5m in increases each. They're looking at maybe $2m.

Now, should they both sign, I can see the Hawks having issues trying to extend some other guys, but that seems to be relatively minor.

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07-02-2014, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
I'm confused as to why this is an issue...

The Hawks are $2.2m over the salary cap right now... presumably, they'll trade somebody to get under that, and it won't be a player on a 1 year deal.

Kane & Toews expire next year at $6.3m each. Additionally, Oduya, Leddy, Roszival & Richards expire for a combined $10.3m.

What are Toews/Kane realistically going to sign for? $8m? $8.5m? They are fully aware that anything beyond that will put them in a very difficult spot to ice a team next year. Split that $10.3 in expiring contracts between them, and it's $5m in increases each. They're looking at maybe $2m.

Now, should they both sign, I can see the Hawks having issues trying to extend some other guys, but that seems to be relatively minor.

1) When the others are Leddy Saad Kruger and maybe Oduya
2) Everyone is looking to trade Rozsival are maybe Oduya and Leddy which affects
tagging.
3) Toews and Kane opening offer was $12 mil , everyone is now expecting $9-10 mil.
4) It won't be difficult but will require a mini purge of $3 mil players for rookies like Dahlbeck Clendening Johns or Danualt

Personally, it is an interesting discussion. Fans just think Stan can just sign them and not worry. There are a bunch of rocks that Stan has to navigate , in order to keep the core and tagging is one of them.

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07-02-2014, 02:48 PM
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How much trouble would giving Saad an extension at same time as Kane/Toews be?

Could that be a potential issue holding up signings

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07-02-2014, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkscap View Post
1) When the others are Leddy Saad Kruger and maybe Oduya
2) Everyone is looking to trade Rozsival are maybe Oduya and Leddy which affects
tagging.
3) Toews and Kane opening offer was $12 mil , everyone is now expecting $9-10 mil.
4) It won't be difficult but will require a mini purge of $3 mil players for rookies like Dahlbeck Clendening Johns or Danualt

Personally, it is an interesting discussion. Fans just think Stan can just sign them and not worry. There are a bunch of rocks that Stan has to navigate , in order to keep the core and tagging is one of them.
As I mentioned, seems like a pretty simple solution -- they won't be able to extend all of their free agents if they do sign both Toews & Kane.

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07-02-2014, 03:07 PM
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Would moving Bickell (3 yrs x 4) or Sharp for non cap assets (Prospects/Picks) be enough to make this issue go away?

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07-02-2014, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Would moving Bickell (3 yrs x 4) or Sharp for non cap assets (Prospects/Picks) be enough to make this issue go away?

Sharp's cap hit is $5.9 MM. I would think... yes.

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07-02-2014, 05:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mouser View Post
(C) is Aggregate of the averaged contracts, I.e. totals. And you don't count Toews and Kane in that total as you can't both tag and sign a player. Tagging basically means "we're not going to re-sign this impending free agent".

P.s. I still think Anaheim violated the cap and tagging rules with Niedermeyers' "temporary retirement".
From my reading "tagging" is nothing more than having a player start a new SPC in a future year (or for a player signed mid-season to a multi-year deal, the amount the SPC in a future year is higher than the cap charge applied this year)

If Kane signs an extension right now, the money used for that extension (call it $10M for kicks) is "tagged" for next year.

I don't see any wording that makes it more complicated than "you can't have more money committed in future years than this years cap"

The Hawks seem to have just over $24 million in "Tagged Payroll Room" available (assuming they get down to exactly the cap, by trading Richards or Kruger and Regin [not at all suggesting they should, just simply picking guys who get them basically to the cap but don't mess with next years numbers]). Which would mean Toews and Kane could sign for $12M each and be fine. However the Hawks would then be unable to sign anyone else to an extension as all of their space would be used up.

Do Kane first:

(A) The SPC of the Player - $6.3 million
(B) the Club's Payroll Room - $0
(C) aggregated AAV of expiring contracts excluding player in question minus tagged space (0) - ~$17.7
=
Max value of contract - $24 million

He signs a $10M a year deal and thus the Hawks tag $10 million

Now Toews:

(A) The SPC of the Player - $6.3 million
(B) the Club's Payroll Room - $0
(C) aggregated AAV of expiring contracts excluding player in question minus tagged space ($10M) - ~$17.7 - $10M = $7.7M
=
Max value of contract - $14 million

He signs a $10M a year deal and the Hawks tag another $10 million.

Now Saad
(A) The SPC of the Player - $750K
(B) the Club's Payroll Room - $0
(C) aggregated AAV of expiring contracts excluding player in question minus tagged space ($20M) - ~$23.25M - 20M = ~3.25M
=
Max value of contract = $4M

The only question I potentially see is if RFAs count towards tagged space, but I don't see any language that indicates that.

Edit: And then to see what it does to Oduya

Lets say Saad signs for $3M
(A) The SPC of the Player - $3.375M
(B) the Club's Payroll Room - $0
(C) aggregated AAV of expiring contracts excluding player in question minus tagged space ($24M) - ~$20.625M - 23MM = -2.375M
=
Max value of contract = $1M

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Last edited by hatterson: 07-02-2014 at 05:36 PM. Reason: Added oduya numbers to carry on example
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07-03-2014, 04:12 PM
  #24
seanlinden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hatterson View Post
From my reading "tagging" is nothing more than having a player start a new SPC in a future year (or for a player signed mid-season to a multi-year deal, the amount the SPC in a future year is higher than the cap charge applied this year)

If Kane signs an extension right now, the money used for that extension (call it $10M for kicks) is "tagged" for next year.

I don't see any wording that makes it more complicated than "you can't have more money committed in future years than this years cap"

The Hawks seem to have just over $24 million in "Tagged Payroll Room" available (assuming they get down to exactly the cap, by trading Richards or Kruger and Regin [not at all suggesting they should, just simply picking guys who get them basically to the cap but don't mess with next years numbers]). Which would mean Toews and Kane could sign for $12M each and be fine. However the Hawks would then be unable to sign anyone else to an extension as all of their space would be used up.

Do Kane first:

(A) The SPC of the Player - $6.3 million
(B) the Club's Payroll Room - $0
(C) aggregated AAV of expiring contracts excluding player in question minus tagged space (0) - ~$17.7
=
Max value of contract - $24 million

He signs a $10M a year deal and thus the Hawks tag $10 million

Now Toews:

(A) The SPC of the Player - $6.3 million
(B) the Club's Payroll Room - $0
(C) aggregated AAV of expiring contracts excluding player in question minus tagged space ($10M) - ~$17.7 - $10M = $7.7M
=
Max value of contract - $14 million

He signs a $10M a year deal and the Hawks tag another $10 million.

Now Saad
(A) The SPC of the Player - $750K
(B) the Club's Payroll Room - $0
(C) aggregated AAV of expiring contracts excluding player in question minus tagged space ($20M) - ~$23.25M - 20M = ~3.25M
=
Max value of contract = $4M

The only question I potentially see is if RFAs count towards tagged space, but I don't see any language that indicates that.

Edit: And then to see what it does to Oduya

Lets say Saad signs for $3M
(A) The SPC of the Player - $3.375M
(B) the Club's Payroll Room - $0
(C) aggregated AAV of expiring contracts excluding player in question minus tagged space ($24M) - ~$20.625M - 23MM = -2.375M
=
Max value of contract = $1M
Pretty much this.... I don't even see why this is an issue. Not only do I doubt that Toews / Kane sign for $10m, but teams rarely get all of their free agents re-upped before the end of the season anyways.

Yeah, it'll be an issue to sign Saad & Oduya before the end of the season if they sign Kane & Toews as well, but that's a lot of ifs.

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07-03-2014, 06:16 PM
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The problem is lies on who can they trade right now to get cap spaceand not screw up the tagging space. I have a feeling they are trying to get Saad under too.

If Saad has a huge year, it is going to cost them more than the $3.5 mil they can probably get him for now.

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