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6th Overall - Jake Virtanen UPDATE: Signed to 3-Year ELC

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Old
07-12-2014, 07:01 PM
  #476
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I wish I had your faith in him.
Lol, "faith". Life is never as bad as it seems, cheer up.

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07-12-2014, 07:12 PM
  #477
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You definitely have the least fitting username on these boards ...
Took the words right out of my mouth.

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07-12-2014, 07:14 PM
  #478
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worked well after 94
Before my time but

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07-12-2014, 07:53 PM
  #479
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I just think you're flat out wrong.
The two players they went gaga over were two BC boys, Vancouver boys even, odds on that?

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07-12-2014, 09:00 PM
  #480
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The two players they went gaga over were two BC boys, Vancouver boys even, odds on that?
They were also rated right where we took (or would have taken) them both. So how would you determine that their birthplace played a role?

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07-12-2014, 09:11 PM
  #481
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wouldnt the closer analogue be keenan

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07-13-2014, 12:19 AM
  #482
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They were also rated right where we took (or would have taken) them both. So how would you determine that their birthplace played a role?
1/4 (Reinhart, Ekblad, Draisaitl, Bennet)
MDC
1/4 (Virtanen, Ritchie, Nylander, Ehlers)

1 in 16

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07-13-2014, 12:57 AM
  #483
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Originally Posted by me2 View Post
1/4 (Reinhart, Ekblad, Draisaitl, Bennet)
MDC
1/4 (Virtanen, Ritchie, Nylander, Ehlers)

1 in 16
Not sure I get your point. We were never going to draft Ekblad and Reinhart was the next highest rated player. Bennett and Draisaitl don't even factor in.

At 6 Benning was looking at the two power forwards, Ritchie and Virtanen. Ehlers and Nylander don't fit the style of player he was looking for, nor were they universally rated higher than Virtanen or Ritchie (for example Mckenzie's list ranked both JV and Ritchie ahead of Ehlers and Nylander).

You can explain both choices quite rationally without ever referencing birthplace.

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07-13-2014, 02:13 AM
  #484
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I just think if they were concerned about playing style they would have gone with Ritchie. I do honestly believe geography played a part in the selection (Jakes a top-10 pick, I am not denying it. I just think Vancouver is the only team who would have taken him at #6).
McKenzie polls scouts to derive his rankings and he had Virtanen going 7th. Craig Button who had Virtanen ranked very low on his list had Virtanen going 6th. And in reality, there was a consensus top 4 and majority having Dal Colle at #5. Who came after was a crapshoot. But I will say that I too believe geography played a part in the selection. All else being equal, Virtanen is a local boy who grew up as a Canucks fan. If our scouts can't decide between Virtanen and Ritchie, geography clinches it.

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I think the interview thing is ridiculous... shows how dinosaur the NHL is. Ho-Sang looks phenomenal, Shinkaruk looks phenomenal and apparently they were terrible interviewers.

I think the interview should account for like .0001% of a players draft stock.
Interviews are actually "new" rather than "old". Schroeder apparently fell due to bad interviews. There's been rumors of Shinkaruk's lack of popularity with his teammates. I think it is all subjective but if you ask the right questions I think you can get a better idea of how a prospect sees himself and analyzes the game.

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07-13-2014, 03:44 AM
  #485
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Not sure I get your point. We were never going to draft Ekblad and Reinhart was the next highest rated player. Bennett and Draisaitl don't even factor in.

At 6 Benning was looking at the two power forwards, Ritchie and Virtanen. Ehlers and Nylander don't fit the style of player he was looking for, nor were they universally rated higher than Virtanen or Ritchie (for example Mckenzie's list ranked both JV and Ritchie ahead of Ehlers and Nylander).

You can explain both choices quite rationally without ever referencing birthplace.
Of course "we were never going to draft" the non-vancouver kids.

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07-13-2014, 09:26 AM
  #486
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Honestly I expect the league they played in probably had more to do with our (reported) lean towards Reinhart and Virtanen.

Before the draft pretty much nobody seemed to think Reinhart was a reach at #1 so anyone suggesting there was undue bias in the team's preference for him at this point is rewriting some very recent history.

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07-13-2014, 09:53 AM
  #487
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Originally Posted by F A N View Post
McKenzie polls scouts to derive his rankings and he had Virtanen going 7th. Craig Button who had Virtanen ranked very low on his list had Virtanen going 6th. And in reality, there was a consensus top 4 and majority having Dal Colle at #5. Who came after was a crapshoot. But I will say that I too believe geography played a part in the selection. All else being equal, Virtanen is a local boy who grew up as a Canucks fan. If our scouts can't decide between Virtanen and Ritchie, geography clinches it.


Interviews are actually "new" rather than "old". Schroeder apparently fell due to bad interviews. There's been rumors of Shinkaruk's lack of popularity with his teammates. I think it is all subjective but if you ask the right questions I think you can get a better idea of how a prospect sees himself and analyzes the game.
Player character is everything. Talent differences are negligible with salary cap. Fitting personalities together and making a better team through complex interpersonal interactions not just in skillsets but in different personality types is where the difference is being made between a good team that never wins anything and Stanley Cup Winners. Not that this is a new thing. It's disregarded because it's a bit obfuscating in nature when referred to with its common monikers like "culture", "character", "winning mentality", etc. Doesn't mean "intangibles" don't exist, despite the advent of advanced stats (whom I like) whose proponents would be very much against that type of thinking. It's hardly a surprise that a team like LA is not only knee-deep into analytics but almost excessively concerned about character and the "fit". Thornton, Seguin, Kessel are all "culture" trades (do not confuse that for me claiming that the teams that acquired those players "lost" the deal, the Thornton trade regardless of assets coming back was beneficial to Boston for reasons that go above asset value by itself, Seguin still has time to figure it out, and Kessel simply isn't worth to Boston what he is worth to another team - I guess in this sense somewhat ironically a team that is putting the cart ahead of the horse in Toronto, that little retool or rebuild they went over was a grand missed opportunity for going about the things the right way, they'll end up right where they started - an OK team that isn't winning the Cup anytime soon).


Last edited by nki: 07-13-2014 at 10:02 AM.
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Old
07-13-2014, 11:48 AM
  #488
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There were 3 players I wanted pre draft and would have been equally happy with either. Virtanen, Ehlers, Nylander. I couldn't be happier then taking Virtanen. Pumped about this pick from day 1 and still am. I have no doubt in my mind Virtanen will rip it up next year.

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07-13-2014, 12:00 PM
  #489
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Of course "we were never going to draft" the non-vancouver kids.
Lol, sure mate. You can't demonstrate that they were interested in these players due to geography so all you keep doing is reiterating that the players they were interested also happened to be from Vancouver.

The last 3 cars I've owned happened to be German but I never gave a moment's thought to where they are made when I bought each one. Your analysis would wrongly conclude that I bought them because they were German.

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07-13-2014, 01:40 PM
  #490
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Player character is everything. Talent differences are negligible with salary cap. Fitting personalities together and making a better team through complex interpersonal interactions not just in skillsets but in different personality types is where the difference is being made between a good team that never wins anything and Stanley Cup Winners. Not that this is a new thing. It's disregarded because it's a bit obfuscating in nature when referred to with its common monikers like "culture", "character", "winning mentality", etc. Doesn't mean "intangibles" don't exist, despite the advent of advanced stats (whom I like) whose proponents would be very much against that type of thinking. It's hardly a surprise that a team like LA is not only knee-deep into analytics but almost excessively concerned about character and the "fit". Thornton, Seguin, Kessel are all "culture" trades (do not confuse that for me claiming that the teams that acquired those players "lost" the deal, the Thornton trade regardless of assets coming back was beneficial to Boston for reasons that go above asset value by itself, Seguin still has time to figure it out, and Kessel simply isn't worth to Boston what he is worth to another team - I guess in this sense somewhat ironically a team that is putting the cart ahead of the horse in Toronto, that little retool or rebuild they went over was a grand missed opportunity for going about the things the right way, they'll end up right where they started - an OK team that isn't winning the Cup anytime soon).
Great point, and fantastic post.

People tend to think players play at 100% and are willing to cooperate 100%. It isn't true, and it isn't just about the money. Teams face the same problems that arise in a normal 9-5 office. Sometimes people, for whatever reason, end up being a net negative on the team's output.

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07-13-2014, 02:24 PM
  #491
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To be fair, Mess was a tremendous player in '94 but by '97 had declined physically and checked out mentally in Vancouver.

Benning isn't a player so I'd guess he hasn't "declined" all that much since helping construct that Boston roster ...
You forgot Keenan...

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07-13-2014, 03:54 PM
  #492
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You forgot Keenan...
Fair enough, though Keenan had bounced around a bit after 94, including leaving NYR for St Louis then being canned after a couple seasons. By the time he reached Vancouver the bloom was starting to come off his cup win. Benning is not near Keenan territory at present time.

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07-13-2014, 04:02 PM
  #493
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Lol, sure mate. You can't demonstrate that they were interested in these players due to geography so all you keep doing is reiterating that the players they were interested also happened to be from Vancouver.

The last 3 cars I've owned happened to be German but I never gave a moment's thought to where they are made when I bought each one. Your analysis would wrongly conclude that I bought them because they were German.
We also only drafted ONE guy from BC, didn't we? One does not make a trend anyways, so that's doubly questionable.

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07-13-2014, 05:07 PM
  #494
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He does have the best hockey nationality in him, half finnish/half Canadian.

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07-13-2014, 05:58 PM
  #495
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I wish I had your faith in him.
Only on a Canucks board could you find an "Optimist" so pessimistic...

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07-13-2014, 07:32 PM
  #496
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So I heard Jake say in an interview that doctors said to him they never saw a shoulder heal so quickly.. So assuming he's on the short end of the 4-6 months of recovery that would put him healthy around Sept 20th.. He should still get a full season under his belt when does the WHL season start?

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07-13-2014, 07:45 PM
  #497
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Jake admired Naslund, wearing his number in minor hockey. Gonna be weird in 5 years when BC'ers at the draft grew up admiring the Sedins.

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07-13-2014, 08:09 PM
  #498
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So I heard Jake say in an interview that doctors said to him they never saw a shoulder heal so quickly.. So assuming he's on the short end of the 4-6 months of recovery that would put him healthy around Sept 20th.. He should still get a full season under his belt when does the WHL season start?
Ironically Calgary's first reg season game is ... September 20th.

Pre-season starts in late August so he'll miss that almost certainly but hopefully be cleared to play by NHL pre-season or start of Calgary's reg season.

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07-13-2014, 08:19 PM
  #499
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Jake admired Naslund, wearing his number in minor hockey. Gonna be weird in 5 years when BC'ers at the draft grew up admiring the Sedins.
It wouldn't be. The Sedins were PPG players for a good 8 years.

Kids could have started admiring them as early as 2005-06. If they were 12 back then, they'd be 21 by now.

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07-13-2014, 08:20 PM
  #500
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Lol, sure mate. You can't demonstrate that they were interested in these players due to geography so all you keep doing is reiterating that the players they were interested also happened to be from Vancouver.
One minute you are all over Benning wants size, then overlook the fact Draisaitl is huge in favour of Reinhart. I'm not sure why you find it hard to admit place was likely a factor.

It's not that hard to imagine the Vancouver hype machine over the local kids getting drafted as part of the PR makeover the team was mangling it's way through. It is rather more probable that birthplace matter than not, 4 equal kids so why not take the local? I'll bet they'd have taken Bennett and Ritchie if they where the local BC kids and Reinhart and Virts were not.

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