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Old
07-02-2014, 11:57 AM
  #51
roon
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Originally Posted by IWantSakicAsMyGM View Post
Yes, the Avs are going to value their 23 year old Lady Byng winning, 6th in Selke voting, leading goal scorer top line LW more than a 19 year old D who had a good rookie season. Without a doubt.
The lady byng is useless...stop bringing it up. He was "A nice guy on the ice" is basically what that says. Who cares.

He got 58 votes for the Selke...hardly something to write home about.

Consider your teams needs. RoR is going to be looking for term and a payday. Can you give it to him, have the cash to sign MacKinnon to the Ovechkin like contract he is going to command and upgrade your Defense?

I am saying that to COL landing a cost controlled D-Man like Maatta that on your team would be the 1/2 guy is more than worth it for a guy like RoR. Defense wins Stanley Cups....just ask LA.

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07-02-2014, 11:58 AM
  #52
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If Maatta was on the first pairing for "the majority of the last season", he would have averaged more than 18:30 of ice time. That's 4/5 minutes.
Well when you lose the majority of your D-Men to injury you spread the minutes out. Doesn't mean he didn't see ice time vs teams top lines...because he did...a lot of it.

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07-02-2014, 11:58 AM
  #53
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Originally Posted by IWantSakicAsMyGM View Post
If Maatta was on the first pairing for "the majority of the last season", he would have averaged more than 18:30 of ice time. That's 4/5 minutes.
Should I refute your point by tabulating the number of games Maatta played 20+ mins, or should I just point out that the only things you know about Maatta are based on a stat sheet? The kid was on out first pairing for most of the year.

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07-02-2014, 12:02 PM
  #54
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The lady byng is useless...stop bringing it up. He was "A nice guy on the ice" is basically what that says. Who cares.
Yeah winning a league award just makes him worthless.

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07-02-2014, 12:04 PM
  #55
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Yeah winning a league award just makes him worthless.
he never said ROR is worthless. He said the Lady Byng is useless in terms of adding value to a player....which it is.

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07-02-2014, 12:05 PM
  #56
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Should I refute your point by tabulating the number of games Maatta played 20+ mins, or should I just point out that the only things you know about Maatta are based on a stat sheet? The kid was on out first pairing for most of the year.
Martin played 39 games and Letang played 37 games. Of course there will be times where others are pushed up the lineup when injuries hits.

When the team was fully healthy in the playoffs, Maatta was fifth in ice time per game for defenders.

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07-02-2014, 12:06 PM
  #57
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No thank you from the avalanche:

Ryan O is a better player then all those guys in the OP.

1. Dupuis is a overpaid 3rd to 4th line player that had the luxury to get some points the last few years because his linemate was crosby... just like Kunitz who i strongly believe shouldn't have made team canada.

2. Paul martin, sure hes a alright defense-man and he plays the leftside which is what they need but they just resigned Holden who had a great year last year defensively and offensively, the have Barrie who was amazing last year and dont forget they now have Johnson, Hejda, and Stuart now to be tough and play back.... Hejda having a career year last year.

3. Sutter, is a great player at his position but unfortunately its the Centre position. We have to man guy available to take that spot down the middle you have Duchene, Mackinnon, Mitchell, Talbot, Hishon, Scarbosa, Cliche, Winchester, Briere, and now Connor Bleakley

This trade makes no sense to Colorado making its team weaker, and if we can't sign Ryan O then someone will give us more then that for him I'm sure of it.... 28g, 2Pim, 83 Takeaways, Chemistry with Duchene, Defensively strong, Takes important faceoffs.... No Wonder you want him
1. Dupuis will bring character and leadership, which is something Col is always looking to add it seams.

2. You seem to agree that Martin is a very useful defenceman so I don't need to convince of that. Where we disagree is the strength of the Avs defence. I don't know if you were watching many Avs games, especially in the playoffs, but it became more and more apparent as the season progressed that the Avs needed to upgrade their defence. Martin fits perfectly into their system as he can move the puck very well, creating offence and he can defend. Avs fans know better than anyone else that they need a top pairing two way left shooting defenceman.

3. Solution: move Mitchell to 4C and Sutter to 3C, and Briere to wing.

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07-02-2014, 12:08 PM
  #58
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he never said ROR is worthless. He said the Lady Byng is useless in terms of adding value to a player....which it is.
Yes, and I said he was insinuating winning an award was worthless.

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07-02-2014, 12:11 PM
  #59
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Yes, and I said he was insinuating winning an award was worthless.
no. You said "Winning a league award makes him worthless." What you are describing as worthless is "him."

Now what you are saying is "the winning of the award is worthless," which it is. If you want to modify what you said, fine by all means.

Its amazing how former lady byng winner Brad Richards only got 2 mil in FA this year.


ROR has a lot of value because he is a great player. He is above average offensively, great defensively, plays multiple positions and is still young. Him winning the Lady Byng has nothing to do with it.

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07-02-2014, 12:12 PM
  #60
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Originally Posted by roon View Post
The lady byng is useless...stop bringing it up. He was "A nice guy on the ice" is basically what that says. Who cares.

He got 58 votes for the Selke...hardly something to write home about.

Consider your teams needs. RoR is going to be looking for term and a payday. Can you give it to him, have the cash to sign MacKinnon to the Ovechkin like contract he is going to command and upgrade your Defense?

I am saying that to COL landing a cost controlled D-Man like Maatta that on your team would be the 1/2 guy is more than worth it for a guy like RoR. Defense wins Stanley Cups....just ask LA.
Actually, he won the Lady Byng because he took exactly 0 penalties as a result of infractions against other players. His only 2 PIMs last season were because he kicked the puck while holding a broken stick. Oh, and he did that while leading the league in takeaways. So, there's that.

And, he was the second highest non-C in Selke voting. No, 58 pts isn't anything to write home about. But, if he's 6th in Selke voting when he's 23, it's plausible that he's going to move up the list as he gets older.

Yes, the Avs can afford to give ROR $6m for term and still sign MacKinnon. Not an issue. Especially with Stastny leaving.

And LA had the highest GF/G of any team in the playoffs. I could argue that offense won the Cup for them.

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07-02-2014, 12:14 PM
  #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
no. You said "Winning a league award makes him worthless." What you are describing as worthless is "him."

Now what you are saying is "the winning of the award is worthless," which it is. If you want to modify what you said, fine by all means.

Its amazing how former lady byng winner Brad Richards only got 2 mil in FA this year.


ROR has a lot of value because he is a great player. He is above average offensively, great defensively, plays multiple positions and is still young. Him winning the Lady Byng has nothing to do with it.
hmm you chose not to mention Datsyuk and St. Louis who dominated the Lady Byng the past decade.

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07-02-2014, 12:15 PM
  #62
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hmm you chose not to mention Datsyuk and St. Louis who dominated the Lady Bing the past few decade.
so thats why Datsyuk and St Louis are good?

Also that doesnt really dispute anything i said.

"winning the lady byng" does not garner any additional value. Plain and simple. A player is good because he is good.

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07-02-2014, 12:16 PM
  #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
no. You said "Winning a league award makes him worthless." What you are describing as worthless is "him."

Now what you are saying is "the winning of the award is worthless," which it is. If you want to modify what you said, fine by all means.

Its amazing how former lady byng winner Brad Richards only got 2 mil in FA this year.


ROR has a lot of value because he is a great player. He is above average offensively, great defensively, plays multiple positions and is still young. Him winning the Lady Byng has nothing to do with it.
Oh no, a 34 year old player who used to be good and won an award 10 years ago didn't get a huge contract after getting bought out of his last contract. Let's discount everyone who has ever won the same award.

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07-02-2014, 12:20 PM
  #64
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people can be quite dense at times.

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07-02-2014, 12:21 PM
  #65
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Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
no. You said "Winning a league award makes him worthless." What you are describing as worthless is "him."

Now what you are saying is "the winning of the award is worthless," which it is. If you want to modify what you said, fine by all means.

Its amazing how former lady byng winner Brad Richards only got 2 mil in FA this year.


ROR has a lot of value because he is a great player. He is above average offensively, great defensively, plays multiple positions and is still young. Him winning the Lady Byng has nothing to do with it.
I managed to mis-quote myself. Whoops.

Also the Richards contract/age/team worth is irrelevant. And given their negotiations history you can bet O'Reilly and his agent will say "he's an award winner, pay him like one."

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07-02-2014, 12:21 PM
  #66
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[QUOTE=Freudian;87554973]Martin played 39 games and Letang played 37 games. Of course there will be times where others are pushed up the lineup when injuries hits.

When the team was fully healthy in the playoffs, Maatta was fifth in ice time per game for defenders.[/]

Right, so like I said, he was on our #1 pairing for the majority of the season. And by the time the playoffs rolled around, he had played over 100 games in his rookie season (between NA and Sochi). Can you say anything about Maatta other than his TOI?

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07-02-2014, 12:22 PM
  #67
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Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
so thats why Datsyuk and St Louis are good?
Just as solid as you're reasoning about Richards.

O'Reilly is an established top line winger, a Lady Byng winner, and among the best two way forwards in the game at 23 years of age. Matta has a good season under his belt as a top-4 defenseman, but only the one season. O'Reilly is worth more than Matta at this point.

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07-02-2014, 12:29 PM
  #68
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Originally Posted by DoctrSteveBrule View Post
so thats why Datsyuk and St Louis are good?

Also that doesnt really dispute anything i said.

"winning the lady byng" does not garner any additional value. Plain and simple. A player is good because he is good.
No award really garners any additional value, it's simply a reflection of the value of the player. Winning the Richard doesn't add value to Ovechkin. Scoring the 56 goals that won the award added the value.

So, my point was, ROR took 2 PIMs for kicking the puck while holding the stick. He led the league in takeaways, and took 0 PIMs while doing it. They gave him an award for it.

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07-02-2014, 12:30 PM
  #69
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Just as solid as you're reasoning about Richards.

O'Reilly is an established top line winger, a Lady Byng winner, and among the best two way forwards in the game at 23 years of age.
i bolded the things that matter.


At no point did i argue he was less valuable that Maatta so I'm not sure where this came from. ROR has more value and is better. None of that is because he won the nice dude award

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07-02-2014, 12:33 PM
  #70
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Right, so like I said, he was on our #1 pairing for the majority of the season. And by the time the playoffs rolled around, he had played over 100 games in his rookie season (between NA and Sochi). Can you say anything about Maatta other than his TOI?
There is a difference between being on the top pairing because of injuries, lack of depth, coaching decisions, and being on the top pairing because you're the best guy for the job.

As an example, Matt Hunwick was on the Avs top pairing for the majority of the season a few years ago. Doesn't make him a proven top pairing D.

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07-02-2014, 12:38 PM
  #71
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Originally Posted by IWantSakicAsMyGM View Post
Actually, he won the Lady Byng because he took exactly 0 penalties as a result of infractions against other players. His only 2 PIMs last season were because he kicked the puck while holding a broken stick. Oh, and he did that while leading the league in takeaways. So, there's that.

And, he was the second highest non-C in Selke voting. No, 58 pts isn't anything to write home about. But, if he's 6th in Selke voting when he's 23, it's plausible that he's going to move up the list as he gets older.

Yes, the Avs can afford to give ROR $6m for term and still sign MacKinnon. Not an issue. Especially with Stastny leaving.

And LA had the highest GF/G of any team in the playoffs. I could argue that offense won the Cup for them.
He doesn't take penalties...thats a good quality for sure..but for what we are talking about here the Lady Byng is useless. I didn't ask if you could keep RoR and sign MacK...i asked if you could do that while upgrading your defense. You have 1 D-Man signed beyond the 15/16 season. It would stand to reason that COL will be looking to upgrade their D over what it currently is...this means bigger money. You have 10mil in cap space at the moment with 1 spot open according to capgeek...certainly a good amount. Lets assume RoR gets atleast 6mil/year and MacK is going to be north of 7 and I wouldnt be suprised to see north of 8 mil. You really think you can do that and upgrade your D significantly?

I am just saying...if I am COL...value wise a cost controlled 19 year old D-Man with a ceiling as high as Maatta looks a lot better to me than RoR.

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07-02-2014, 12:38 PM
  #72
Subby Dubby Doooo
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And LA had the highest GF/G of any team in the playoffs. I could argue that offense won the Cup for them.
Are you kidding me??? LA had one of the best d-cores in the NHL. You do realize that offence is not only about forwards. They have one of the best offensive defenceman in the league along with other great puck moving defencemen that allow their forwards to produce so much offence. If you have no puck moving defencemen, how will your forwards get the puck? Also, when you defend like the Kings, you are spending a lot more time in the offensive zone.

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07-02-2014, 12:40 PM
  #73
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Originally Posted by IWantSakicAsMyGM View Post
There is a difference between being on the top pairing because of injuries, lack of depth, coaching decisions, and being on the top pairing because you're the best guy for the job.

As an example, Matt Hunwick was on the Avs top pairing for the majority of the season a few years ago. Doesn't make him a proven top pairing D.
Shall I point you to the Olympics as well? Wasn't he on Finlands top pair?

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07-02-2014, 12:42 PM
  #74
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Martin played 39 games and Letang played 37 games. Of course there will be times where others are pushed up the lineup when injuries hits.

When the team was fully healthy in the playoffs, Maatta was fifth in ice time per game for defenders.
You're not wrong, but please keep in mind he was a 19yr old rookie who played not only a full season of NHL hockey against grown men and getting top-2/top-4 minutes, but also played for Finland in the Olympics, where he was 3rd in TOI for defense (behind Timonen and Vatanen) and tied for 2nd in pts while earning a bronze medal. The kid played a ton of hard minutes last year, no one can fault him for being gassed going into the playoffs.

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07-02-2014, 12:51 PM
  #75
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You're not wrong, but please keep in mind he was a 19yr old rookie who played not only a full season of NHL hockey against grown men and getting top-2/top-4 minutes, but also played for Finland in the Olympics, where he was 3rd in TOI for defense (behind Timonen and Vatanen) and tied for 2nd in pts while earning a bronze medal. The kid played a ton of hard minutes last year, no one can fault him for being gassed going into the playoffs.
Maatta was playing with a shoulder injury in the playoffs. The guy has heart.

For 2 months when everyone was injured, you could argue he was our best D.

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