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Subban and Eller filed for arbitration

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07-07-2014, 06:47 AM
  #101
Craig71
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Could we potentially see an arbitrator award PK 7.5-8 million for 1 year and have him end up a free agent at the end of 2014-15? If so, I don't know why they continue to do this to PK, it's not like this type of player comes along every day, lock him up for 7-8 years and win some cups around him. I may be looking at this whole thing the wrong way but I don't like the idea of a third party deciding what our best player receives in a contract. Why would the habs do this?

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07-07-2014, 07:22 AM
  #102
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Ahhhhhh, there seem to be few things in life that ypu can truly count on.

Death, taxes and posters on the habs boards acting like chicken littles.....where everything is doom and gloom, worst case scenarios.

Three things you can count on.

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07-07-2014, 07:28 AM
  #103
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So there was a thread calling people to eat crow because MB is good at signing 4th liners yet he can't get deals done with our two best players on the team for second time in a row? Hmm ok...

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07-07-2014, 07:31 AM
  #104
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So there was a thread calling people to eat crow because MB is good at signing 4th liners yet he can't get deals done with our two best players on the team for second time in a row? Hmm ok...
Is anyone seriously believing filing for arbitration means MB cant sign these players?

who is that idiotic?

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07-07-2014, 07:42 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Craig71 View Post
Could we potentially see an arbitrator award PK 7.5-8 million for 1 year and have him end up a free agent at the end of 2014-15? If so, I don't know why they continue to do this to PK, it's not like this type of player comes along every day, lock him up for 7-8 years and win some cups around him. I may be looking at this whole thing the wrong way but I don't like the idea of a third party deciding what our best player receives in a contract. Why would the habs do this?
He's 2 years away from UFA, the team would take a 1 year award this year from arbitration (arbitration awards $, team decides to sign for 1 or 2 years or to walk away) and then try to get him signed long term after that.

And it was Subban who filed for arbitration, not the Habs. It's disappointing that there isn't a deal done yet, but it isn't really that surprising or an issue. It's a case where if you're Subban you either have to use it or lose it, arbitration is one of his few ways to gain leverage.

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07-07-2014, 07:47 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Brainiac View Post
Just the fact that Subban had to file for arbitration is moronic.
Often it's just a procedure for continuing negotiations without the threat of offer sheets in the mean time, and they still have until a ruling is made to come up with a "real" contract instead of the 1 or 2 year options from the arbitrator.

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07-07-2014, 09:10 AM
  #107
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So we can only sign Subban for 1 year in this arbitration thing right?

But we could extand him anytime during the season. He is still RFA next spring?

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07-07-2014, 09:12 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Halifaxhab View Post
Ahhhhhh, there seem to be few things in life that ypu can truly count on.

Death, taxes and posters on the habs boards acting like chicken littles.....where everything is doom and gloom, worst case scenarios.

Three things you can count on.
Don't forget about people continuously making ****** proposals here and on the trade board and still think they're good.

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07-07-2014, 09:20 AM
  #109
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So because there is more money available now, we should give it away? P.K. Subban in every other fan base except ours is not worth as much as Ovechkin.... The most prolific goal scorer in the NHL. Cap ******** does not change the value of players. This is not soccer where we just throw heaping piles of money at players because we can.
With an increase in the cap it leads to more general managers overpaying certain players which leads to more leverage for UFAs and RFAs when it comes time for their deals.

Before the big increase in the cap guys like Doughty, Pietrangelo and Karlsson's deals would've been great contracts to base Subban's around since they're close to Subban's age and all comparable to his skill.

After the increase in the cap we see guys like Letang and Phaneuf get $7 million, why should Subban take $7 million or less now when he's thousands of times better than both of those guys and his contract will also be buying into UFA years long-term.

It's not throwing out more money at certain players because "you can", it is throwing more money at certain players because you have to.

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07-07-2014, 09:48 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by YMCMBeaulieu View Post
With an increase in the cap it leads to more general managers overpaying certain players which leads to more leverage for UFAs and RFAs when it comes time for their deals.

Before the big increase in the cap guys like Doughty, Pietrangelo and Karlsson's deals would've been great contracts to base Subban's around since they're close to Subban's age and all comparable to his skill.

After the increase in the cap we see guys like Letang and Phaneuf get $7 million, why should Subban take $7 million or less now when he's thousands of times better than both of those guys and his contract will also be buying into UFA years long-term.

It's not throwing out more money at certain players because "you can", it is throwing more money at certain players because you have to.
Toronto made a horrible decision signing Phaneuf to that contract. And Toronto is well known for making horrible decisions, we definatley do not "need" to follow toronto's lead on this.

That Phaneuf contract will cause him to be bought out.

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07-07-2014, 10:17 AM
  #111
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wrong thread


Last edited by Macch: 07-07-2014 at 10:42 AM.
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07-07-2014, 03:13 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Agnostic View Post
I can't see why it would go ugly. I think it will be a matter of the team showing how Subban is similar to stars like Karlsson and Pietrangelo, the latter signing a contract within the current CBA, and Subban wanting to be compared to star players who signed in previous CBA's.
Well in past there have been arbitration cases that got real ugly

You had Milbury reducing Tommy Salo to tears by his brutal attacks on Sallo's abilities (claimed he wasn't NHL caliber) and attacking his character/committment to get reduced arbitration ruling. It was real ugly and the Salo/Isles relationship never recovered

The Flyers and Leclair had ugly arbitration fight in early 00's that basically killed relationship between Leclair and front office

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07-07-2014, 03:27 PM
  #113
Le CH
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Well in past there have been arbitration cases that got real ugly

You had Milbury reducing Tommy Salo to tears by his brutal attacks on Sallo's abilities (claimed he wasn't NHL caliber) and attacking his character/committment to get reduced arbitration ruling. It was real ugly and the Salo/Isles relationship never recovered

The Flyers and Leclair had ugly arbitration fight in early 00's that basically killed relationship between Leclair and front office
Hopefully MB is a smarter GM than the bolded... so'd you'd hope both parties would take a more mature/adult approach to these negotiations. I have no idea where either party stands at the moment but if PK is holding out for a $8.5M+ contract, I'm not sure we should sign him.

MB has to take into consideration the welfare of the team as a whole and not simply throw PK a blank checkbook to make him happy. This team is certainly better with PK on it but not at any cost.

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07-07-2014, 03:29 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Well in past there have been arbitration cases that got real ugly

You had Milbury reducing Tommy Salo to tears by his brutal attacks on Sallo's abilities (claimed he wasn't NHL caliber) and attacking his character/committment to get reduced arbitration ruling. It was real ugly and the Salo/Isles relationship never recovered

The Flyers and Leclair had ugly arbitration fight in early 00's that basically killed relationship between Leclair and front office
The whole process is to pick apart every weakness that you can find with the player you're trying to sign - just so you can get him at a reduced rate. Of course its going to be an ugly process.

I'm sure the team wants to avoid it as much as Subban does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
Often it's just a procedure for continuing negotiations without the threat of offer sheets in the mean time, and they still have until a ruling is made to come up with a "real" contract instead of the 1 or 2 year options from the arbitrator.
That's what I think is happening here. And I think there's a much greater chance of Eller going to arbitration than Subban.

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07-07-2014, 04:29 PM
  #115
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Hopefully MB is a smarter GM than the bolded... so'd you'd hope both parties would take a more mature/adult approach to these negotiations. I have no idea where either party stands at the moment but if PK is holding out for a $8.5M+ contract, I'm not sure we should sign him.

MB has to take into consideration the welfare of the team as a whole and not simply throw PK a blank checkbook to make him happy. This team is certainly better with PK on it but not at any cost.
This is a ridiculous stance.

There is no amount to sign PK to that would make the team worse. If you claim otherwise you're clueless. Players like Subban are extremely rare. Even more so in Montreal where no one seems able to perform up to their potential. We finally have a player that has won a trophy for his position but.. you know.. he's not that good.. he doesn't deserve a prorated cap hit according to inflation like other players at the same position who haven't even won the award he has or produced in the playoffs like he has. What a load of crap.

In a world where we signed Prust to 2.5M, Bourque to 3M, Briere to 4M, etc. Signing Subban to 9M would be a bargain.

You guys will be shocked when the deal is signed or when the arbitrator makes his decision.

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07-07-2014, 04:43 PM
  #116
Beige Van
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This is a ridiculous stance.

There is no amount to sign PK to that would make the team worse. If you claim otherwise you're clueless. Players like Subban are extremely rare. Even more so in Montreal where no one seems able to perform up to their potential. We finally have a player that has won a trophy for his position but.. you know.. he's not that good.. he doesn't deserve a prorated cap hit according to inflation like other players at the same position who haven't even won the award he has or produced in the playoffs like he has. What a load of crap.

In a world where we signed Prust to 2.5M, Bourque to 3M, Briere to 4M, etc. Signing Subban to 9M would be a bargain.

You guys will be shocked when the deal is signed or when the arbitrator makes his decision.

Exactly. What good is extra cap space if it is used to sign washed up vets and marginal players to inflated contracts. Pay your star player. The other pieces will fall into place.

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07-07-2014, 04:53 PM
  #117
Le CH
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
This is a ridiculous stance.

There is no amount to sign PK to that would make the team worse. If you claim otherwise you're clueless. Players like Subban are extremely rare. Even more so in Montreal where no one seems able to perform up to their potential. We finally have a player that has won a trophy for his position but.. you know.. he's not that good.. he doesn't deserve a prorated cap hit according to inflation like other players at the same position who haven't even won the award he has or produced in the playoffs like he has. What a load of crap.

In a world where we signed Prust to 2.5M, Bourque to 3M, Briere to 4M, etc. Signing Subban to 9M would be a bargain.

You guys will be shocked when the deal is signed or when the arbitrator makes his decision.
I'm not going to bother replying in the same disparaging tone but IMO, there is an amount that makes signing PK detrimental to the future success of this team. And don't interpret this as meaning he is "not that good"... its just that in a salary cap environment, you can't afford to overpay for an asset without hindering you potential of signing other important players in the future.

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07-07-2014, 04:56 PM
  #118
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Originally Posted by Blackhawkswincup View Post
Well in past there have been arbitration cases that got real ugly

You had Milbury reducing Tommy Salo to tears by his brutal attacks on Sallo's abilities (claimed he wasn't NHL caliber) and attacking his character/committment to get reduced arbitration ruling. It was real ugly and the Salo/Isles relationship never recovered

The Flyers and Leclair had ugly arbitration fight in early 00's that basically killed relationship between Leclair and front office
Two words:

1) Outliers
2) Milbury

There are many mundane and uneventful trips to arbitration and this should be a case of both the team and player agreeing he deserves a raise, the only difference being they are comparing the player to different all-stars/Norris winners.

If MB lets it get ugly, which I doubt greatly he will , then he deserves criticism.

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07-07-2014, 05:08 PM
  #119
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When we traded for Scott Gomez, he had an average cap hit of 7.3 when the total cap was 56.8 during 09-10 season. This represents 12.85% of the total cap for that year.

This year the cap is 69 millions. 12.85%*69 is about 8.867 millions/year. Imagine paying Scott Gomez salary for someone who actually is a star player.

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07-07-2014, 05:51 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by LeHab View Post
When we traded for Scott Gomez, he had an average cap hit of 7.3 when the total cap was 56.8 during 09-10 season. This represents 12.85% of the total cap for that year.

This year the cap is 69 millions. 12.85%*69 is about 8.867 millions/year. Imagine paying Scott Gomez salary for someone who actually is a star player.
But no, when it comes to Subban we must make sure he's not overpaid. Prust, Briere, Moen, we can overpay them by a million here and million there.. no biggie... but Subban... if he's overpaid by 1M it would be a tragedy.

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07-07-2014, 05:59 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by E = CH² View Post
But no, when it comes to Subban we must make sure he's not overpaid. Prust, Briere, Moen, we can overpay them by a million here and million there.. no biggie... but Subban... if he's overpaid by 1M it would be a tragedy.
Subban needs to learn his place.

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07-07-2014, 06:37 PM
  #122
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Subban needs to learn his place.
You forgot your


And you are beyond defensive. No one, on any of the Habs board, said anything close to that. You realize we are all fans of his, and want to see him winthe next 8-10 Norris trophies and Stanley Cups. We all want him signed long term too. And, like you, want him to take a contract that helps the team sign otherngreat players in the long run.

Prust and Moen, are gone in a coup,e seasons. Subban is here long term, and will be a leader and superstar with us. Teams that have those types under good contracts (Toews, Kane as examples) win more than most others.

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07-07-2014, 07:11 PM
  #123
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You forgot your


And you are beyond defensive. No one, on any of the Habs board, said anything close to that. You realize we are all fans of his, and want to see him winthe next 8-10 Norris trophies and Stanley Cups. We all want him signed long term too. And, like you, want him to take a contract that helps the team sign otherngreat players in the long run.

Prust and Moen, are gone in a coup,e seasons. Subban is here long term, and will be a leader and superstar with us. Teams that have those types under good contracts (Toews, Kane as examples) win more than most others.
Again, this is what bewilders me. I understand you're using hyperbole, but it's ridiculous to sit there and say "We'd love for you to play at a level that garners Norris attention and helps us legitimately compete for a Stanley Cup, but we'd like you to do at a bargain price, so we can throw the kind of money at other players that we denied you on your bridge contract, and are now asking you to give up again; I mean, you DO wanna win, right PK?!?!? Or are you just a selfish 'me-first' kinda guy?"

As other people have explained, the Habs had the chance to forge that kind of relationship with PK earlier, but chose to forgo it for a "this is business now prove your worth to us" bridge deal. It's ridiculous for you and others to blame PK for the Habs having to potentially reap what they themselves have sown.

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07-07-2014, 07:15 PM
  #124
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I've been really impressed with Bergevin but I don't know why he continues to be so tight fisted when it comes to Subban. It's a big commitment and alot of money but honestly if there was ever a player to sign long term it's PK.

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07-07-2014, 07:21 PM
  #125
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Again, this is what bewilders me. I understand you're using hyperbole, but it's ridiculous to sit there and say "We'd love for you to play at a level that garners Norris attention and helps us legitimately compete for a Stanley Cup, but we'd like you to do at a bargain price, so we can throw the kind of money at other players that we denied you on your bridge contract, and are now asking you to give up again; I mean, you DO wanna win, right PK?!?!? Or are you just a selfish 'me-first' kinda guy?"

As other people have explained, the Habs had the chance to forge that kind of relationship with PK earlier, but chose to forgo it for a "this is business now prove your worth to us" bridge deal. It's ridiculous for you and others to blame PK for the Habs having to potentially reap what they themselves have sown.
How would $8M/yr be a bargain price? That would make him the best paid D in the league...

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