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Old
07-06-2014, 04:15 PM
  #26
thebus2288
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Originally Posted by davidbklyn View Post
Y'all are just saying "he's bad" without fleshing it out.
He's a liability!! He, he uhhh...cant do anything!!

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07-06-2014, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by davidbklyn View Post
I don't know anybody and couldn't care less who you know, but if you have information then that's pertinent.

I think you're really making a cartoon character out of the guy. My thoughts are that he's good at keeping the puck in the zone and wearing down the other team in a way small guys can't. There's a place for a forward who doesn't score but can help to establish possession, isn't there? Am I way off thinking that could describe Boll?
it just seems like you have started a thread with little intent to discuss, there have been many good posts that have detailed why he isn't or shouldn't be in the lineup. Many that you have glanced over and/or not responded to. IMO, no there isn't any viable reason to put him on the ice unless we're playing a team that its felt needed that we have a fighter for. If he doesn't play defense fairly well, nor does he score, then what is the perceived role for him? There just isn't one.

I have no idea how Gibbons or D'Amigo will fit in, but it seems they bring more speed and more skill to the lineup (which JD and JK advocated for), add in Tropp and there just isn't any reason for Boll to be in the lineup, which stems back to my thoughts that we are paying him this contract as a thank you for all you've done for this franchise. Yes, I realize how dumb that sounds, but that is my perception.

This doesn't even get into whether Dano fights (excuse the metaphor) hisway onto the team in some aspect.

They all do far more than Boll does for the team.

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07-06-2014, 04:16 PM
  #28
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Originally Posted by thebus2288 View Post
He's a liability!! He, he uhhh...cant do anything!!
is there any actual back up you have to your stance of "you're wrong, I'm right"?

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07-06-2014, 04:23 PM
  #29
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Ok you got 4 or 5 guys on the ice. Only 3 can be credited with a point if you score a goal. So the 1 or 2 guys that are not credited with a point had nothing to do with the goal?

How many goals do you think the Red Wings scored that Holmstrom was mainly responsible for that he didn't receive any credit for on the scoresheet? You better believe he got credit in the locker room. The same credit you better believe Boll gets for doing what he does on the ice. There's a reason the 'A' is put where it's put.
Yep, he creates so many goals. That's why he plays so many minutes. Oh, wait.

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07-06-2014, 04:25 PM
  #30
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it just seems like you have started a thread with little intent to discuss, there have been many good posts that have detailed why he isn't or shouldn't be in the lineup. Many that you have glanced over and/or not responded to. IMO, no there isn't any viable reason to put him on the ice unless we're playing a team that its felt needed that we have a fighter for. If he doesn't play defense fairly well, nor does he score, then what is the perceived role for him? There just isn't one.

I have no idea how Gibbons or D'Amigo will fit in, but it seems they bring more speed and more skill to the lineup (which JD and JK advocated for), add in Tropp and there just isn't any reason for Boll to be in the lineup, which stems back to my thoughts that we are paying him this contract as a thank you for all you've done for this franchise. Yes, I realize how dumb that sounds, but that is my perception.

This doesn't even get into whether Dano fights (excuse the metaphor) hisway onto the team in some aspect.

They all do far more than Boll does for the team.
If that's how I'm coming off, it's not my intent. I was hoping for some discussion. I don't really feel there have been very many good posts or good points, there's just been statements that he isn't one of the best forwards on the team, and end of story. I was hoping for some detail. There have also been challenges about what Boll brings which I feel I've replied to, to little effect.

As far as the contract, maybe it will just go down as a big question mark. I have thought that it was a smokescreen by JK, a way of ingratiating himself so he could lowball RFA contracts, but that's pretty absurd too.

But when you say Gibbons and D'Amigo bring more speed and skill to the lineup, I'm not disagreeing. However, I feel that for the fourth line those qualities (well, skill) aren't a priority. Gibbons played on Pitt's first line some during the playoffs, in fact (and they squandered a 3-1 series lead in the second round). You've asked a couple of times about his perceived role and quickly concluded there isn't one; but I've said it's his ability to wear down other teams with his size. I'm really, really not talking about fighting. Smaller guys are easier to play against, physically, wouldn't you say? I guess if you don't feel he has that ability, or that he does but it isn't important, then at least we're understanding where we aren't agreeing and not talking past each other.

No argument with your point about JD and JK advocating for qualities that Boll doesn't possess, that's a good point.

Maybe we just understand the 4th line differently.

edit: which is not to say you need Boll to have a good fourth line, or a guy who plays like he does, because we saw last year that you don't- although Comeau had the highest CORSI on the team (I don't even know what that stands for, but isn't the stat re: possession?) But until Gibbons and D'Amigo and maybe Hjarlmaarson show they can establish the puck in the oponent's zone, I like our chances with Boll (or until he shows that he can't anymore)


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07-06-2014, 04:27 PM
  #31
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Originally Posted by thebus2288 View Post
Ok you got 4 or 5 guys on the ice. Only 3 can be credited with a point if you score a goal. So the 1 or 2 guys that are not credited with a point had nothing to do with the goal?

How many goals do you think the Red Wings scored that Holmstrom was mainly responsible for that he didn't receive any credit for on the scoresheet? You better believe he got credit in the locker room. The same credit you better believe Boll gets for doing what he does on the ice. There's a reason the 'A' is put where it's put.
Holmstrom also contributed in a tangible way. If Boll was any kind of threat in front of the net, don't you think the coaches would have figured it out by now?

Side note - do you have any stats that show how many goals Boll was responsible for over the past 3 seasons? I'm genuinely curious. He's averaged about 4 points over those seasons, so I'm guessing the answer will be "not many".

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07-06-2014, 04:30 PM
  #32
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is there any actual back up you have to your stance of "you're wrong, I'm right"?
Nope. Just as much as you bud. I just disagree with things that make no sense. Me and Dave have typed positive things about Boll's role on this team that are just as relevant as the things you type.

You just named 3 guys that have never played for us and said that they do more for the team than Boll does. How can you possibly even come up with that? Its possible they have a bigger impact, it also POSSIBLE that they don't. This is real life, real people and a real hockey team being built, not NHL 14. And if there's anybody who doesn't belong on the team its Tropp. You lose even more cred points to me by bringing him up.

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07-06-2014, 04:36 PM
  #33
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Originally Posted by thebus2288 View Post
Jesus



Christ


Too many years of Rimer I believe. Sure, it's being phased out with all the concussion experts out there, like our own here. But as of now he/they(tough guys) are still necessary in our sport. Just look at all the dirty plays/suspensions that are still happening and will continue to happen. I know for a fact all you guys would be on here *****ing like crazy if 1 of our guys takes a really nasty hit and is out for a while.

Also you guys saying he has no positive impact in the offensive zone are just wrong. It's on par with any 4th liner we could have in there. Its just a different presence. He's probably our best guy as of now to be used in front as a screen and I could definitely see him used on the PP OUT FRONT(not on the point). Remember how some of you claimed how good Umberger was out front on the PP and that's how he brought value? It's actually true in Boll's case..
How about trying to make your point without insulting or demeaning everyone who holds a different opinion? That would be refreshing.

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07-06-2014, 04:38 PM
  #34
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Nope. Just as much as you bud. I just disagree with things that make no sense. Me and Dave have typed positive things about Boll's role on this team that are just as relevant as the things you type.
don't remind me

Quote:
You just named 3 guys that have never played for us and said that they do more for the team than Boll does. How can you possibly even come up with that? Its possible they have a bigger impact, it also POSSIBLE that they don't. This is real life, real people and a real hockey team being built, not NHL 14. And if there's anybody who doesn't belong on the team its Tropp. You lose even more cred points to me by bringing him up.
Corey Tropp: 6' 0", 183 lbs
Jared Boll: 6' 2", 219 lbs

That's my main point. That's 2 inches and about 40 lbs. You'll get a sweet goal out of Tropp a couple of times a year, but it's like a player who hits for average hitting a home run. Not what's needed on that line.

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07-06-2014, 04:38 PM
  #35
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Originally Posted by thebus2288 View Post
Nope. Just as much as you bud. I just disagree with things that make no sense. Me and Dave have typed positive things about Boll's role on this team that are just as relevant as the things you type.

You just named 3 guys that have never played for us and said that they do more for the team than Boll does. How can you possibly even come up with that? Its possible they have a bigger impact, it also POSSIBLE that they don't. This is real life, real people and a real hockey team being built, not NHL 14. And if there's anybody who doesn't belong on the team its Tropp. You lose even more cred points to me by bringing him up.
please re-read my post... i never said they do more...there is ZERO absolute to my post

Quote:
I have no idea how Gibbons or D'Amigo will fit in, but it seems they bring more speed and more skill to the lineup
Tropp scored some skilled goals last year (rewatch the Pittsburgh goal) so you are 0 for 2 on that...

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07-06-2014, 04:46 PM
  #36
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Originally Posted by davidbklyn View Post
If that's how I'm coming off, it's not my intent. I was hoping for some discussion. I don't really feel there have been very many good posts or good points, there's just been statements that he isn't one of the best forwards on the team, and end of story. I was hoping for some detail. There have also been challenges about what Boll brings which I feel I've replied to, to little effect.
fair enough, sorry i misread intent...

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07-06-2014, 04:48 PM
  #37
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Originally Posted by DJAnimosity View Post
Holmstrom also contributed in a tangible way. If Boll was any kind of threat in front of the net, don't you think the coaches would have figured it out by now?

Side note - do you have any stats that show how many goals Boll was responsible for over the past 3 seasons? I'm genuinely curious. He's averaged about 4 points over those seasons, so I'm guessing the answer will be "not many".
#1: We don't pay him to put up points. #2: My whole point, which you seemed to miss, is that your not always credited statistically for things you've had a hand in. So the answer IS probably "not many". But there is literally no "numbers" to prove anyone right or wrong. And I guess I'll ask, given his role, TOI and salary what amount would be "many" or "not many"?

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07-06-2014, 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by thebus2288 View Post
#1: We don't pay him to put up points. #2: My whole point, which you seemed to miss, is that your not always credited statistically for things you've had a hand in. So the answer IS probably "not many". But there is literally no "numbers" to prove anyone right or wrong. And I guess I'll ask, given his role, TOI and salary what amount would be "many" or "not many"?
And I will ask again....what is his "role"? What DOES he do that he's "not statistically credited for"? And I will say again - it's obviously not enough, or important enough, to the team that the coaches don't want him doing whatever it is, for more than 5 to 8 minutes per game.

If he really was contributing in these important, but unseen and uncredited ways, I'd sure as hell want him out there more often if I were an NHL head coach. The team also had a far worse record in games he played in than games he didn't - so I'm not sure what positive effect he's having.

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07-06-2014, 05:01 PM
  #39
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How about trying to make your point without insulting or demeaning everyone who holds a different opinion? That would be refreshing.
Well I really don't know what's so insulting. Its called honesty. Someone making claims that they think Boll's brain and overall mental health is damaged is pretty insulting to me. This same person brought up Jared Boll playing the point on the PP...

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07-06-2014, 05:01 PM
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And I will ask again....what is his "role"? What DOES he do that he's "not statistically credited for"? And I will say again - it's obviously not enough, or important enough, to the team that the coaches don't want him doing whatever it is, for more than 5 to 8 minutes per game.

If he really was contributing in these important, but unseen and uncredited ways, I'd sure as hell want him out there more often if I were an NHL head coach. The team also had a far worse record in games he played in than games he didn't - so I'm not sure what positive effect he's having.
I would answer (again): wearing down the other team with his size in a way that Letestu, Tropp, and presumably Gibbons and D'Amigo can't (although D'Amigo isn't a whole lot smaller than Boll). Keeping the puck in our possession. And yes, probably as a deterrent in some ways, but that's not really where I find his value.

I'd chalk up his low minutes to not being a special teams player, although that remains a mark against him.

Maybe he'll end up as the 13th forward more often than I'd anticipate. But again, it seems clear that in fact management sure as hell does want him around.

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07-06-2014, 05:05 PM
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please re-read my post... i never said they do more...there is ZERO absolute to my post

You said "They all do far more than Boll does for the team." Right?!?


And Tropp sucks.

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07-06-2014, 05:11 PM
  #42
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Originally Posted by davidbklyn View Post
I would answer (again): wearing down the other team with his size in a way that Letestu, Tropp, and presumably Gibbons and D'Amigo can't (although D'Amigo isn't a whole lot smaller than Boll). Keeping the puck in our possession. And yes, probably as a deterrent in some ways, but that's not really where I find his value.

I'd chalk up his low minutes to not being a special teams player, although that remains a mark against him.

Maybe he'll end up as the 13th forward more often than I'd anticipate. But again, it seems clear that in fact management sure as hell does want him around.
Then, why did we do better when he didn't play?

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07-06-2014, 05:16 PM
  #43
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Originally Posted by davidbklyn View Post
I would answer (again): wearing down the other team with his size in a way that Letestu, Tropp, and presumably Gibbons and D'Amigo can't (although D'Amigo isn't a whole lot smaller than Boll). Keeping the puck in our possession. And yes, probably as a deterrent in some ways, but that's not really where I find his value.

I'd chalk up his low minutes to not being a special teams player, although that remains a mark against him.

Maybe he'll end up as the 13th forward more often than I'd anticipate. But again, it seems clear that in fact management sure as hell does want him around.
the point here, is he's not been that good overall possessively...so i'd rather Letestu and what i've seen from Gibbons in that role. and it'll be interesting in an above post as I've said, Dano is a real wildcard...having already played the role in a men's league and not juniors...what comes out of there may have an impact on that line...there's probably a good reason Tropp hasn't been signed yet...

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07-06-2014, 05:17 PM
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Originally Posted by RDriesenUD View Post
Then, why did we do better when he didn't play?
I mean, how many different dynamics are there that go into a game? Do you think it's all on Boll? My admittedly addled memory has him being injured during our phenomenal run 2 seasons ago, and for much of last year. I'm sure you don't think it was his injury that caused those stretches of strong play.

I do know that our nice streak of games that we won when entering the third period ahead (39 games? 42?) snapped shortly after he was injured, and that we had trouble holding leads last year. I don't think the streak was caused by him, but I don't think it's immaterial, either. He can help holds leads late in the game.


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07-06-2014, 05:25 PM
  #45
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the point here, is he's not been that good overall possessively...so i'd rather Letestu and what i've seen from Gibbons in that role. and it'll be interesting in an above post as I've said, Dano is a real wildcard...having already played the role in a men's league and not juniors...what comes out of there may have an impact on that line...there's probably a good reason Tropp hasn't been signed yet...
Sure, I'm just saying those aren't big guys. And anyway, you can put Boll out there with Letestu and Gibbons.

You're right about Dano, although he's also pretty small and I'm not sure I'd want him and Gibbons flanking Letestu on a fourth line.

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07-06-2014, 05:28 PM
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but if they're better (I'll repeat IF, for those that spot read) wouldn't you rather those guys on the ice in those situations? When I see boll on the ice, i fear turnovers are gonna happen...

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07-06-2014, 05:32 PM
  #47
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Tropp:

Regular Season = 27-13-4 (58pts out of a possible 88pts = 66%)
44gp, 2g, 8a, 10pts, +11

Postseason = 1-1
2gp, 0g, 0a, 0pts, +0


Boll:

Regular Season = 11-13-4 (26pts out of a possible 56pts = 46%)
28gp, 1g, 1a, 2pts, -6

Postseason = 0-2
2gp, 0g, 0a, 0pts, +0

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07-06-2014, 05:35 PM
  #48
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Originally Posted by davidbklyn View Post
No argument with your point about JD and JK advocating for qualities that Boll doesn't possess, that's a good point.

Maybe we just understand the 4th line differently.
Here's where I think the issue lies.

By advocating for qualities that Boll doesn't possess - and he was a strong if not speedy skater - the FO seems to be saying it understands the 4th line differently. Which is to say, we want our roster to have a fourth line that skates hard and fast, is feisty and relentless on the forecheck and can chip in with some offense if we're going to give them 8-10 minutes of ice time a game.

As to the idea that the FO wants Boll around because they gave him the contract. That may well be. The FO hasn't said anything on the matter, and the contract exists. He's been a legit (depth/role-playing) NHL player for several years. Perhaps they trust Jared in a depth role in the even of injuries, or against teams that he matches up against well. Perhaps they value his off-ice presence in the team. Perhape Jarmo plans to instruct HCTR to get him more ice time. I could be convinced of the first couple explanations. And hey, while there's no way to know about the last, I guess it could happen.

I am open to the possibility that Jared forces his way into the "regular" lineup. I don't do predictions, but if I did, I'd predict it won't happen.

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07-06-2014, 05:36 PM
  #49
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I mean, how many different dynamics are there that go into a game?
If Boll was so good, we wouldn't be better without him than we are with him. It is that simple. He clearly doesn't impact the game the way some of you think he does. Otherwise, again, why are we better without him? Sure, there are other factors, but this isn't a small sample size. Why do I think we are better? I think we are better, because we have more skill and talent on the 4th line when he doesn't play.

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07-06-2014, 05:39 PM
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Stats don't lie. Statistically he's one of the worst players in the league every year. Last year the great Boll statistically was credited with 1 takeaway and less hits than Mackenzie, oh and a whopping 19 shots in 43 games. Everything quantitative says that Jared Boll sucks badly. You "guys" keep bring Mackenzie up as well for some reason when Mackenzie brought a lot more to this team than Jared Boll has ever come close to providing including almost doubling Boll's PPG average over their careers. We should just wait for thebus2288 and davidbklyn to actually provide cold hard facts to backup their claims rather than just because they said so. If we did that though, this thread would never have another post in it.

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