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Old
07-11-2014, 12:20 PM
  #101
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Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
Jet and Holden:
Leaving aside your comments about Stuart's skill set, which I clearly value as complimentary to the rest of our D-men, I have a question for you guys about leadership.

You two have played a lot more hockey than me. In your experience, how important is the leadership of a guy like Stuart in helping to develop a young team? I'm not trying to make a point, just interested in your opinions.
Honestly, I think its super important. However I believe the Jets already have some really great leaders on the team. I don't think that what Stuart brings to the team (leadership, shot blocking) is worth what he takes away (cap space, spot for younger, more skilled player, puck handling, ability to drive possession).

You see Edmonton, who conversely seems to have a real void of those character guys. Those types of guys (Grier, Moreau, Horcoff, Smith, Smyth, Pisani) that got them within one game of the Stanley cup. The difference between the above players and Stuart, is those guys also could play the game.

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07-11-2014, 12:35 PM
  #102
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To me:

Stuart deal was fine if we didn't have Clitsome already signed and then signed Pardy.... His possession isn't great for 3rd pair D but it's not anything terribad like cement skates Murray or the ilk. Stu actually sits around 40th percentile of defensemen (so about 60% of 3rd pair d-men are better and 40% are worse). The only player he may be blocking is Morrissey and I don't think Morrissey will have trouble being blocked by Stuart IF he's ready (or at least I hope so). I am worried about term and not a fan on how a guy who is tagged as character and wants to be here was also essentially overpaid for because Chipman let it slip they wanted him badly (according to Chipman).

Thorburn deal is far worse for me. Jets have youth ready to come in (Klingberg, O`Dell, etc) AND have role players who can fill that area (Peluso) AND Thorburn is in bottom 20% of 4th line players for possession (so more than 80% of 4th line skaters are better and less than 20% are worse).


IE: I can understand giving a player bonus points and wanting him due to leadership, but there are other variables involved. As Holden and Jet pointed out, the Jets have a lot of good character pieces. Also, as they noted, there are times to bring in and to let go. Besides, what has our leadership done so far that allows the status quo? In addition we have some players already who can fill the non-leadership roles as well. I'm not a fan of either signing, but I still hold Thorburn one as more of an error.


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07-11-2014, 01:34 PM
  #103
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It's important. No one is denying that I don't think. You want to see what happens when you toss a bunch of kids to the fire take a look at what's happening (and is continuing to happen, IMO, they won't be any better this year) in Edmonton right now. There's a huge difference between the junior game and the pro game. You need guys that can show the guys how's it's done at this level.

There's a reason teams like the Kings signed Scott Thornton, Rob Blake, Kyle Calder, Brian Willsie, Michal Handzus while retaining Derek Armstrong, Alex Frolov, Jaroslav Modry. However that was while bringing along Dustin Brown, Anze Kopitar, Drew Doughty, Slava Voynov, Brayden Schenn, Jonathan Quick, Jonathan Bernier, Patrick O'Sullivan, etc. However once those guys started maturing the mantle was passed and the team MOVED ON.

It is also important to remember that you need to try to improve the team at the same time. Talent does win hockey games. The Jets are nowhere NEAR the START of a rebuild. They are supposed to have come out of it already (if your looking at every successful rebuild in the past 15 years). They don't need Chris Thorburns and Mark Stuarts of the world (ie barely NHL calibre character players) when they have what should be a real strong leadership core with Andrew Ladd, Bryan Little, Blake Wheeler, Dustin Byfuglien, Michael Frolik, Jim Slater, even Zach Bogosian at this point. And if at this point those guys are not good enough leaders that you need the leadership of people like Stuart and Thorburn to get you along the problem is so bad it needs to be a complete rebuild. You need to start moving on from these type of tweener hockey players at a certain point. If you ever want to get better. I mean sure LA still has Matt Greene (a bigger better version of Stuart) but you don't see them going to sign another bottom pairing D for the same money and say done deal we are good enough we'll just promote the player over his head and hope it all works out sometime in the next 5 years.
This is a good post.

However, I slightly disagree on a couple of premises. I believe that Mark Stuart is an NHL caliber player, think that your "barely" on him is a little harsh. I think Stuart is here long term precisely because the group bolded above are not high quality, elite leaders. This is my biggest beef with Chevy, is that he has not changed that core - and by definition - leadership group.

If you ever listen to closely Paul Maurice, there is not a player he gushes about more than Mark Stuart. He believes that his example as a pro is what they need to build their team off of. Again, I seem to be in miniscule minority that likes Mark Stuart on this team (and I would take Matt Greene also)...good people can disagree

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07-11-2014, 01:38 PM
  #104
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Originally Posted by Jet View Post
Honestly, I think its super important. However I believe the Jets already have some really great leaders on the team. I don't think that what Stuart brings to the team (leadership, shot blocking) is worth what he takes away (cap space, spot for younger, more skilled player, puck handling, ability to drive possession).

You see Edmonton, who conversely seems to have a real void of those character guys. Those types of guys (Grier, Moreau, Horcoff, Smith, Smyth, Pisani) that got them within one game of the Stanley cup. The difference between the above players and Stuart, is those guys also could play the game.
Agree with the important part...disagree we have great leaders. This is where I think Chevy has failed so far for me. If there were great leaders on this team, you would have never had to have the team work ethic, fitness level and/or commitment questioned (i.e. Buff, Pavs).

Now, I think he is trying to "bring in" leaders - Scheif, Lowry, Trouba, Morrissey, Kosmo - but I would have liked to seen a more impactful leadership change sooner

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07-11-2014, 02:43 PM
  #105
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Originally Posted by TCsmyth View Post
Agree with the important part...disagree we have great leaders. This is where I think Chevy has failed so far for me. If there were great leaders on this team, you would have never had to have the team work ethic, fitness level and/or commitment questioned (i.e. Buff, Pavs).

Now, I think he is trying to "bring in" leaders - Scheif, Lowry, Trouba, Morrissey, Kosmo - but I would have liked to seen a more impactful leadership change sooner
I agree that we could always use more leadership on this team. I find Buff suspect in this regard, and I think that Wheeler gets down on himself a little too much for my liking in a leader. My issue with Stuart isn't leadership. Where we disagree is I just don't think he's a very good hockey player. The greatest leaders lead, and lead by their play on the ice. I don't think for all the effort and grit Stuart brings, his game itself is composed or skillful enough to have this impact.

A guy like Jason Smith, now that was a leader. This guy wasn't the most highly skilled guy but he did not panic on the ice. He gutted out the right plays and was just skilled and smart enough to do everything defensively well.

I actually consider Stuart to be quite similar to Smith, but he falls short on execution time and again. He falls out of position. He doesn't manage the puck well at all. We are trapped in our zone more when he is on the ice than any other defender consistently. He blocks a LOT of shots, but he does because he doesn't push the play up the ice.

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07-11-2014, 02:56 PM
  #106
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Originally Posted by scelaton View Post
Thanks, Garrett.
I see this as the real punchline:

Given a bump of about 5M this season, and the new TV deal coming into play, a potential salary cap rise of 7-10M in 2015-16 doesn’t seem impossible.

I seem to recall calculating that there had been 10-15% salary inflation annually prior to the most recent CBA. Compounded, if that rate continues, that means the AAV on comparable 5-7 year contracts will have doubled by the time they expire. Conclusions:
1)Chevy was very wise to have locked his core players to LT contracts when he did, just after the lockout and prior to the expected rise.
2)All the fuss and bother about Thorburn and Stuart's contracts is just white noise. They are a very small part of a rising cap and, in Stuart's case, the price and term will make him very attractive to other teams if we ever decide to trade him.
This is why I think Chevy signed these guys to the term and salary that he did. Other teams want these guys too. Is this not true? We'll see, I guess. My guess is that as As our prospects that have so much leadership potential themselves grow into their new roles, they will displace Stuart and Thorburn. They will still have one to two years remaining on their contracts and rather than losing them as UFAs, we will be able to trade them. I think that is why we signed Perrault to a three year contract as well.

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07-11-2014, 03:00 PM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Jet Propulsion View Post
This is why I think Chevy signed these guys to the term and salary that he did. Other teams want these guys too. Is this not true? We'll see, I guess. My guess is that as As our prospects that have so much leadership potential themselves grow into their new roles, they will displace Stuart and Thorburn. They will still have one to two years remaining on their contracts and rather than losing them as UFAs, we will be able to trade them. I think that is why we signed Perrault to a three year contract as well.
Anaheim replaced Perrault with the same type of player in a trade and are only paying 1.8 million per year for him. I read the information yesterday but I didn't mark down the name of the player or exact player. Not signing Perrault seems to have been purely a cap move.

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07-11-2014, 03:06 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Jet Propulsion View Post
Anaheim replaced Perrault with the same type of player in a trade and are only paying 1.8 million per year for him. I read the information yesterday but I didn't mark down the name of the player or exact player. Not signing Perrault seems to have been purely a cap move.
I don't want to step into your conversation () but do you mean Nate Thomson?

I wouldn't put him at the same level as Perreault.

I do agree that it was probably cap related. The Ducks are at 59 million, and still need to sign Silfverberg, DSP, and Vatanen. I don't know what their internal cap is.

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07-11-2014, 03:19 PM
  #109
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Almost for sure cap related since Perreault said the Ducks did give him an offer, but below QO.

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07-11-2014, 03:31 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
I don't want to step into your conversation () but do you mean Nate Thomson?

I wouldn't put him at the same level as Perreault.

I do agree that it was probably cap related. The Ducks are at 59 million, and still need to sign Silfverberg, DSP, and Vatanen. I don't know what their internal cap is.
You're right. The two don't really compare except that Nate Thomson is apparently a good face-off guy as well. Anaheim currently has 6 centres listed on their roster. Nate appears to be a leadership guy of Stuart's type. He wore an A in Tampa Bay despite only putting up 16 pts. last season in 81 games. Anaheim gave up a 4th and 7th round draft pick in 2015 to get him. Hmmm . . .

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07-11-2014, 03:49 PM
  #111
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Originally Posted by Huffer View Post
I don't want to step into your conversation () but do you mean Nate Thomson?

I wouldn't put him at the same level as Perreault.

I do agree that it was probably cap related. The Ducks are at 59 million, and still need to sign Silfverberg, DSP, and Vatanen. I don't know what their internal cap is.
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Almost for sure cap related since Perreault said the Ducks did give him an offer, but below QO.
I wouldn't call it cap related. The Ducks have 21 signed and over 12 mil cap space remaining. Internal budget would be a more accurate description. The Ducks are certainly proof that a budget team can be a contender. They are paying big money to Perry and Getzlaf but after them, not so much. They are spending about the same as the Jets. Their defense corps is relatively cheap, topped by Cam Fowler @ 4mil.

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07-11-2014, 05:37 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Jet View Post
Honestly, I think its super important. However I believe the Jets already have some really great leaders on the team. I don't think that what Stuart brings to the team (leadership, shot blocking) is worth what he takes away (cap space, spot for younger, more skilled player, puck handling, ability to drive possession).

You see Edmonton, who conversely seems to have a real void of those character guys. Those types of guys (Grier, Moreau, Horcoff, Smith, Smyth, Pisani) that got them within one game of the Stanley cup. The difference between the above players and Stuart, is those guys also could play the game.
Oilers then captain Jason Smith was not a better/more skilled player then Stuart. Stuart fights more then Jason Smith did.

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07-11-2014, 05:48 PM
  #113
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This is a good post.

However, I slightly disagree on a couple of premises. I believe that Mark Stuart is an NHL caliber player, think that your "barely" on him is a little harsh. I think Stuart is here long term precisely because the group bolded above are not high quality, elite leaders. This is my biggest beef with Chevy, is that he has not changed that core - and by definition - leadership group.

If you ever listen to closely Paul Maurice, there is not a player he gushes about more than Mark Stuart. He believes that his example as a pro is what they need to build their team off of. Again, I seem to be in miniscule minority that likes Mark Stuart on this team (and I would take Matt Greene also)...good people can disagree
Not going to really disagree with you. Honestly if we were to dump Clitsome and Pardy and move Stuart back to his natural role as a #6/7 D by adding some better talent I would no problem with the Stuart. It's the combination of those 3 being our #2-3-4 LD that hurts us badly, not any one is particular.

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07-11-2014, 06:21 PM
  #114
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Oilers then captain Jason Smith was not a better/more skilled player then Stuart. Stuart fights more then Jason Smith did.
I couldn't disagree more with this. I watched every game of the Edmonton Oilers played from 2003 on.

Here are the things Jason Smith did better than Mark Stuart:

- Skated
- Hit
- Penalty killed
- Passed
- Cleared the puck
- Skated with the puck
- Made the correct play
- Shot

There isn't one single category that Mark Stuart is better than Jason Smith was. It's not even close.

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07-11-2014, 07:40 PM
  #115
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Not going to really disagree with you. Honestly if we were to dump Clitsome and Pardy and move Stuart back to his natural role as a #6/7 D by adding some better talent I would no problem with the Stuart. It's the combination of those 3 being our #2-3-4 LD that hurts us badly, not any one is particular.
Hey, if Morissey makes the team in the fall, who gets traded?

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07-11-2014, 08:01 PM
  #116
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Hey, if Morissey makes the team in the fall, who gets traded?
Pardy will be waived and go to St. John's (no claiming team).

Doubt that happens though. Unlike last year where the Jets had a non-waiver eligible Redmond that could head down for Trouba, this year the LD don't have that. Which is why I think no matter how good Morrissey is in camp he won't be on the roster for game one next year.

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07-11-2014, 08:23 PM
  #117
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Pardy will be waived and go to St. John's (no claiming team).

Doubt that happens though. Unlike last year where the Jets had a non-waiver eligible Redmond that could head down for Trouba, this year the LD don't have that. Which is why I think no matter how good Morrissey is in camp he won't be on the roster for game one next year.
Pardy was waived last year out of camp. No one claimed him. Its a good time to do it. Every team is concentrating on getting their roster down to size and under the cap. No way that happens again this year. Pardy had a pretty good season last year. I'm pretty sure some other GM noticed.

The logical move would be to trade Stu. But he is one of Chevy's boys so I don't know if that happens. The contract was apparently necessary because some other team(s) wanted him.

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07-11-2014, 08:39 PM
  #118
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Pardy was waived last year out of camp. No one claimed him. Its a good time to do it. Every team is concentrating on getting their roster down to size and under the cap. No way that happens again this year. Pardy had a pretty good season last year. I'm pretty sure some other GM noticed.

The logical move would be to trade Stu. But he is one of Chevy's boys so I don't know if that happens. The contract was apparently necessary because some other team(s) wanted him.
If we do trade one of our defencemen, let's say Stuart, just for fun, then it would be a good thing that Chevy gave him the contract that he did. I think there are team that would love to have this guy. Beats having him walk for nothing. This scenario won't necessarily happen in September, but again, I think this is why these guys have contracts that are a little longer.

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07-11-2014, 08:41 PM
  #119
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If Nate Thompson was worth a fourth and a seventh pick in the 2015 draft, what would Stuart be worth. Both are character leadership type guys.

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07-11-2014, 08:59 PM
  #120
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Pardy was waived last year out of camp. No one claimed him. Its a good time to do it. Every team is concentrating on getting their roster down to size and under the cap. No way that happens again this year. Pardy had a pretty good season last year. I'm pretty sure some other GM noticed.

The logical move would be to trade Stu. But he is one of Chevy's boys so I don't know if that happens. The contract was apparently necessary because some other team(s) wanted him.
I would deal Clitsome myself! He is fairly paid and I think there would be a decent market for him.

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07-11-2014, 09:59 PM
  #121
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Pardy was waived last year out of camp. No one claimed him. Its a good time to do it. Every team is concentrating on getting their roster down to size and under the cap. No way that happens again this year. Pardy had a pretty good season last year. I'm pretty sure some other GM noticed.

The logical move would be to trade Stu. But he is one of Chevy's boys so I don't know if that happens. The contract was apparently necessary because some other team(s) wanted him.
Other GMs will have noticed him being a meh #7/8 D? Ok sure. If they really want him take him. Nobody really cares. Pardy has become hugely overrated here. He is at best a #7/8 borderline NHL player. Nobody is lining up for guys like him.

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07-11-2014, 10:28 PM
  #122
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I agree that we could always use more leadership on this team. I find Buff suspect in this regard, and I think that Wheeler gets down on himself a little too much for my liking in a leader. My issue with Stuart isn't leadership. Where we disagree is I just don't think he's a very good hockey player. The greatest leaders lead, and lead by their play on the ice. I don't think for all the effort and grit Stuart brings, his game itself is composed or skillful enough to have this impact.

A guy like Jason Smith, now that was a leader. This guy wasn't the most highly skilled guy but he did not panic on the ice. He gutted out the right plays and was just skilled and smart enough to do everything defensively well.

I actually consider Stuart to be quite similar to Smith, but he falls short on execution time and again. He falls out of position. He doesn't manage the puck well at all. We are trapped in our zone more when he is on the ice than any other defender consistently. He blocks a LOT of shots, but he does because he doesn't push the play up the ice.
Jason Smith was a very good hockey player (I was in Alberta in those years). I think in general, there is a lot of agreement in here in the importance of peer leadership. It is the most effective group motivator and team performance enhancement that an organization can strive for in my opinion. Coaching at the NHL level is neutered by one-way deals, NTC's and athletes making millions more than the bosses. You need strong and mature leadership groups as you have seen in LA and Chicago and Boston most recently.

Again, my beef with Chevy is that he has not gotten that group in place quick enough for my liking. Buff should be a guy that "falls into line" on your team - not your key leader. I don't think we have the type of group to kick Buff's (or Pavs or anyone's) backside when it is required. Stu is not a great player, but from all I hear, he is revered by the org and the coaching staff on a team that has suffered from consistent professionalism and effort. My opinion, he is not the reason we are not in the playoffs...good debate

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07-11-2014, 10:30 PM
  #123
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Not going to really disagree with you. Honestly if we were to dump Clitsome and Pardy and move Stuart back to his natural role as a #6/7 D by adding some better talent I would no problem with the Stuart. It's the combination of those 3 being our #2-3-4 LD that hurts us badly, not any one is particular.
Well said...and I really agree with you on Matt Greene. He is an important guy in LA. One of my buddies played with him, and he said he is salt of the earth teammate - value far beyond what he brings on the ice.

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07-11-2014, 10:57 PM
  #124
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If we do trade one of our defencemen, let's say Stuart, just for fun, then it would be a good thing that Chevy gave him the contract that he did. I think there are team that would love to have this guy. Beats having him walk for nothing. This scenario won't necessarily happen in September, but again, I think this is why these guys have contracts that are a little longer.
No it's really not. What's more valuable between the maybe possibly mid round picks we'd get for Stuart and going out a actively pursuing and getting a legitimate top 4 defenseman? Easily the top 4 D. Without Stuart (or Clitsome) Chevy would have had so much more freedom to get a real defenseman for the top 4.

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07-11-2014, 11:13 PM
  #125
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No it's really not. What's more valuable between the maybe possibly mid round picks we'd get for Stuart and going out a actively pursuing and getting a legitimate top 4 defenseman? Easily the top 4 D. Without Stuart (or Clitsome) Chevy would have had so much more freedom to get a real defenseman for the top 4.
How are these two things connected? Theoretically Chevy could trade away Stuart, Clitsome or Pardy if one or two of them are not required. Then he could still make another trade to acquire the top 4 defenceman that you are talking about. No?

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