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Vezina fraud?? (2004 voting)

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Old
07-12-2014, 09:29 AM
  #101
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Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
How did you manage to circle back around to this, after the mountain of data that I provided up above?

Please stop posting claims that have been proven to be false.
last 6 vezina winners had league high save % and 70-80% of the last 20 years winners had league high save %.

that means the save % is the biggest indicator when picking the next vezina winner.

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07-12-2014, 09:34 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by Pegi90 View Post
last 6 vezina winners had league high save %
What cutoff are you using to determine your highest save percentage?

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07-12-2014, 09:51 AM
  #103
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Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
What cutoff are you using to determine your highest save percentage?
realistic chances to win vezina, id say playing 50 games atleast.

last 24 years, starting from the 90s.

2014 - rask
2013 - bobrovsky
2012- lundqvist
2011- thomas
2010- miller
2009- thomas
2008- brodeur - didn't have highest save %.
2007- brodeur
2006- kiprusoff
2005- lockout
2004- brodeur - didnt have highest save %
2003- brodeur - didnt have highest save %
2002- theodore
2001- hasek - didn't have highest save %
2000- kolzig - didnt have highest save %
1999- hasek
1998- hasek
1997- hasek
1996- carey - didn't have highest save %
1995- hasek
1994- hasek
1993- belfour - didnt have highest save %
1992- roy
1991- belfour
1990- roy


so that's last 24 years and only 7 winners who didn't have highest save % during those years they won. that makes it 71% of the winners past 24 years, starting from the 90s have had league high save %. last 10 years its 8/10, 80%.

so its pretty clear that it doesn't even need to argue that save % plays the biggest role when picking the next vezina winner and when it comes down to save %, guys who facing alot of shots having the clear advatange there.

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07-12-2014, 09:54 AM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pegi90 View Post
when it comes down to save %, guys who facing alot of shots having the clear advatange there.
"Clear" advantage? No.

I'm not even going to provide data this time, because it's been done multiple times including in this thread.

I'm sure that you'll CTRL-C/CTRL-V your well-worn "argument" from days of yore however.

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07-12-2014, 10:00 AM
  #105
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5/24 of the vezina winners led league in Wins.

11/24 of the vezina winners led league in GGA.

17/24 of the vezina winners led league in save %.


so it ain't save %?

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07-12-2014, 10:07 AM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pegi90 View Post
5/24 of the vezina winners led league in Wins.

11/24 of the vezina winners led league in GGA.

17/24 of the vezina winners led league in save %.


so it ain't save %?
You're still one topic behind.

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07-12-2014, 10:14 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
"Clear" advantage? No.

I'm not even going to provide data this time, because it's been done multiple times including in this thread.

I'm sure that you'll CTRL-C/CTRL-V your well-worn "argument" from days of yore however.
find me a goaltender who were in top 5 in save %, facing 25 shots a game and played full season, lets say 55-60 games.

for example last year top 5 in save % faced avg 30 shots a game

2012-2013, top faced 5 about 28 shots a game

2011-2012, top 5 faced about 29 shots a game.

2010-2011, top faced about 30-31 shots a game.

i really don't even wanna go further from that, it's too clearly.

you ain't gonna fight for vezina or being top 5 in save % if you face something like 24-26 shots a game and that's a proven fact for how many times now.

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07-12-2014, 10:17 AM
  #108
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Originally Posted by Pegi90 View Post
find me a goaltender who were in top 5 in save %, facing 25 shots a game and played full season, lets say 55-60 games.
Where did this magical "25 shots a game" threshold come from?

As I've already pointed out, in the Vezina voting era, 7% of goaltenders have faced 25 shots/game or less.

Why would you expect a huge amount of Vezina trophy winners with that criterion?

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07-12-2014, 10:18 AM
  #109
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now i would like to know how jonathan quick are going to be in top 5 in save % and having even realistic chance to fight for vezina by facing only 24-25 shots a game.

won't happen until league realizes it and gives that vezina based on something else than save % as it happened with brodeur.

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07-12-2014, 10:19 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Pegi90 View Post
won't happen until league realizes it and gives that vezina based on something else than save % as it happened with brodeur.
The league gives the Vezina on voting, not on save percentage. Surely you realize this.

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07-12-2014, 10:27 AM
  #111
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
You've picked an exceptionally small threshold.

Since the start of Vezina voting in 1981-82, only 7% of goaltenders (weighted by minutes played) have faced fewer than 25 shots/game over the course of a season.

One would therefore assume that, among Vezina winners, only about 7% would have faced fewer than 25 shots/game over the course of their season.

Because of this, it's no wonder that you're not seeing the results that you're hoping for. It sure as heck doesn't prove that goaltenders facing more shots have an easier time posting high save percentages.
I looked at the Vezina winners going back to 1991. (Why 1991? That's all the data I have quick access to on this computer - if someone wants to investigate previous years, go for it).

Of the 23 most recent Vezina trophy winners, 3 of them faced fewer than 25.0 shots per game (Carey in 1996, Brodeur in 2003, and Brodeur in 2004).

This means that 13% of the most recent Vezina winners faced fewer than 25 shots per game, despite the fact that only 7% of goalies do so. This doesn't seem to indicate bias against goalies who face fewer shots (I won't say there's bias in favour of them as we're dealing with such small sample sizes though).

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07-12-2014, 10:38 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
Where did this magical "25 shots a game" threshold come from?

As I've already pointed out, in the Vezina voting era, 7% of goaltenders have faced 25 shots/game or less.

Why would you expect a huge amount of Vezina trophy winners with that criterion?
lundqvist's career low save % came in 2007-2008 when he faced his career low in shots, coincidence? i don't think so.

jonathan quick's career low save % came when he faced his career low in shots, coincidence? i don't think so.

dominik hasek's career low save % came from when he faced his career low in shots, coincidence, i don't think so.

ryan miller's career low in save % came from when he faced his career low in shots, coincidence, i don't think so.

roberto luongo's career low in save % came when he faced his career low in shots, coincidence, i don't think so.

martin brodeur's career low in save % came when he faced his career low in shots, coincidence, i don't think so.

cory schneider's career low in save % came when he faced his career low in shots. coincidence, i don't think so.

i think that's enough past, present and the future in goalies.

their best season's came with the season where they faced most shots, 28-34.

coincidence? i don't think so.

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07-12-2014, 10:40 AM
  #113
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Brodeur does not seem to get enough credit for having been by far the best third defence men in the game. That, even more than his rebound control, has reduced his shots on goal.

To paraphrase Gretzky... "You save 100% of the saves you don't have to make"

But they don't show up in save percentage

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07-12-2014, 10:53 AM
  #114
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosbyfan View Post
To paraphrase Gretzky... "You save 100% of the saves you don't have to make".
Yep. Playing the angles forcing shots wide. Rebound control. Playing the puck eliminating opportunity before anything can even get started. Was once the name of the game when you were in the crease. Forward thinking. Critical thought. Much more involved of course but at its essence or core, the ideal is exactly what Gretzky's saying there. Old axiom.

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07-12-2014, 10:56 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by Crosbyfan View Post
Brodeur does not seem to get enough credit for having been by far the best third defence men in the game. That, even more than his rebound control, has reduced his shots on goal.

To paraphrase Gretzky... "You save 100% of the saves you don't have to make"

But they don't show up in save percentage
this is very true + our old arena discounted those shots at every home game so he would have more "free" shots saved to be added on his totals.

his puckhandling ability made trap possible, it made our organization 2nd most succesful in the past 20 years and that 20 years is excatly the same amount of years brodeur been our starting goaltender.

it doesn't show up on his save % but it shows up on his records and those banners hanging on the rafters of prudential center.

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07-12-2014, 10:59 AM
  #116
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How did Kris Draper get a vote for the Hart

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07-12-2014, 11:59 AM
  #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Crosbyfan View Post
Brodeur does not seem to get enough credit for having been by far the best third defence men in the game. That, even more than his rebound control, has reduced his shots on goal.

To paraphrase Gretzky... "You save 100% of the saves you don't have to make"

But they don't show up in save percentage
I'd say he gets plenty of credit for it, as evidenced by the two Hart nominations in 2003 and 2004 and the accompanying Vezinas. Marty Turco seems to have gotten far less credit for his puckhandling while recording a high save percentage in spite of it.

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07-12-2014, 12:17 PM
  #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pegi90 View Post
5/24 of the vezina winners led league in Wins.

11/24 of the vezina winners led league in GGA.

17/24 of the vezina winners led league in save %.


so it ain't save %?
Wouldn't this just establish that the voters went out of their way to award Brodeur when it runs contradictory to their typical voting pattern? Does this not support the assertion that the voters were more concerned with Brodeur's trophy case than they were with selecting the best goaltender?

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07-12-2014, 03:00 PM
  #119
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
Wouldn't this just establish that the voters went out of their way to award Brodeur when it runs contradictory to their typical voting pattern? Does this not support the assertion that the voters were more concerned with Brodeur's trophy case than they were with selecting the best goaltender?
brodeur is almost the only goaltender who managed to broke that code(%) when it comes to vezina.

they should learn from those years when marty won and award the trophy for best goaltender instead of looking just the save %.

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07-12-2014, 04:03 PM
  #120
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Originally Posted by Pegi90 View Post
lundqvist's career low save % came in 2007-2008 when he faced his career low in shots, coincidence? i don't think so.
Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera...

Why did you switch from "shots per game" to "shots" over the entire season? Was it because your claims would largely be false using shots/game as the criterion?

Although even using shots over a season, your claim is largely false, even for goalies that you hand picked.

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07-12-2014, 04:12 PM
  #121
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Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera...

Why did you switch from "shots per game" to "shots" over the entire season? Was it because your claims would largely be false using shots/game as the criterion?

Although even using shots over a season, your claim is largely false, even for goalies that you hand picked.
prove me wrong instead of assuming things.

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07-12-2014, 04:22 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Pegi90 View Post
prove me wrong instead of assuming things.
I've proven you wrong plenty of times, and you never let it bother you. You don't even bother moving the goalposts, you just repeat the same thing that's already been proven wrong.

Why should I persist? You won't even answer the question that I just asked.

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07-12-2014, 04:36 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by Chalupa Batman View Post
I've proven you wrong plenty of times, and you never let it bother you. You don't even bother moving the goalposts, you just repeat the same thing that's already been proven wrong.

Why should I persist? You won't even answer the question that I just asked.
you haven't proved me wrong even a single time.

all i have said is literally from the goalie statistics, starting from the 90s, how come you have proved me wrong when those ARE FACTS?

only thing you could prove wrong is the theory of facing more shots increases your save % but even there, iv given you these great goalies from the past and their worst seasons came when they faced their career low in shots and best seasons when they faced career high, even that's a FACT.


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07-12-2014, 04:39 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by Pegi90 View Post
you haven't proved me wrong even a single time.

all i have said is literally from the goalie statistics, starting from the 90s, how come you have proved me wrong when those ARE FACTS?

only thing you could prove wrong is the theory of facing more shots increases your save % but even there, iv given you these great goalies from the past and their worst seasons came when they faced their career low in shots and best seasons when they faced career high, even that's a FACT.

What's your cutoff criteria for shots faced in a season?

Because if you don't have one, then it's clearly false (Hasek).

My guess is that you've picked one that's convenient for whatever you're trying to exhibit.

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07-12-2014, 05:09 PM
  #125
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Chalupa is killing it in this thread.

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