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National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

It's officially a debate: Ken Holland vs. Garth Snow

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Old
07-10-2014, 10:14 PM
  #51
Sidney the Kidney
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
I just want to point out the double standard the Islanders and anyone affiliated with the franchise has to deal with on a constant basis. Case in point, the highlighted players.... Long Island wasn't the last stop for almost all of those players (and every one that went on to another team, went to a pretty good organization)... but it's the Islanders that get flack for it.

I'd also like to point out, that while Snow made some questionable signings, he didn't overpay for them.... and quite a few were flipped for pieces that helped the rebuild (PMB became Jaro Halak, Comrie became Calvin de Haan)

I'm not here trying to say Snow is better than anyone.... but the constant double standard pisses me off and I find the need to point it out when it rear it's ugly head.... especially when it comes from a normally level headed poster like STK.
Jester, you misread my intent (or I wasn't clear on my meaning) behind that list of names Snow signed. It was in regards to the poster I quoted (either in that post or a previous one -- can't look back now that I'm already responding) talking about Holland signing guys like Cleary and Quincey, as a roundabout way of saying Holland's doing a bad job. I was just pointing out that Snow also has a list of players he's signed that were of the Cleary/Quincey variety as well. So it's not like Snow's got the edge over Holland in that regard (ie. avoiding signing bad players).

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Old
07-10-2014, 10:16 PM
  #52
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Our scouting and drafting has been good, and if Holland is in fact heavily involved in green-lighting those picks, he does deserve credit there.

Trading and signing free agents over the past few years has been another story.

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07-10-2014, 10:20 PM
  #53
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Can someone educate a simpleton like me why making decisions the fans aren't happy with, even though his team makes the playoffs, makes him a bad GM?

Shame on him for signing veterans who the young prospects will have to outplay during training camp to earn a spot.

Tell you what... if the prospects in the system aren't good enough to have a cup winning GM AND coach think twice about keeping over such crappy veterans, then maybe those prospects don't belong in the NHL anyway.

The Kings lost a "superstar prospect" Bud Holloway, who chose to sign in Sweden instead of competing with Ethan Moreau and Trent Hunter for a roster spot.

Maybe the youth you are all clamoring for doesn't belong in the NHL yet?

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07-10-2014, 10:45 PM
  #54
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Originally Posted by King'sPawn View Post
Can someone educate a simpleton like me why making decisions the fans aren't happy with, even though his team makes the playoffs, makes him a bad GM?

Shame on him for signing veterans who the young prospects will have to outplay during training camp to earn a spot.

Tell you what... if the prospects in the system aren't good enough to have a cup winning GM AND coach think twice about keeping over such crappy veterans, then maybe those prospects don't belong in the NHL anyway.

The Kings lost a "superstar prospect" Bud Holloway, who chose to sign in Sweden instead of competing with Ethan Moreau and Trent Hunter for a roster spot.

Maybe the youth you are all clamoring for doesn't belong in the NHL yet?
Because the prospects are outplaying the veterans and they still don't get to play.

Last season, Ken Holland admitted to icing an inferior hockey team by signing Dan Cleary.

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Old
07-10-2014, 10:46 PM
  #55
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Give me Snow, please.

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Old
07-10-2014, 10:53 PM
  #56
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All time it is not close. Based on the jobs each has done this summer, Snow has done a better job trying to position NYI to get back in the playoffs, even if it meant overpaying in salary. On paper, they are better than in 2014.

Holland meanwhile lost out on a bunch of free agents he went after. Even so, I think he should have turned things over to more young players (like what happened last season) than to re-up Kyle Quincey and Dan Cleary, who are no more than depth (Quincey) and roster bubble (Cleary) players.

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Old
07-10-2014, 11:11 PM
  #57
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Holland. There is no debate whatsoever.

The guys record speaks for itself.

The Wings might be declining now but that is what happens when you draft late for 2 decades and don't happen to find any new superstars late in the draft recently like they were able to pull off in the past.

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07-10-2014, 11:12 PM
  #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King'sPawn View Post
Can someone educate a simpleton like me why making decisions the fans aren't happy with, even though his team makes the playoffs, makes him a bad GM?
We made the playoffs despite Holland's insistence on playing broken down veterans like Cleary and Samuelsson. It was only when injuries forced his hand into calling up the young guns that we had the firepower to squeak into the playoffs, in large part due to an incredible run by Nyquist.

Quote:
Originally Posted by King'sPawn View Post
Shame on him for signing veterans who the young prospects will have to outplay during training camp to earn a spot.

Tell you what... if the prospects in the system aren't good enough to have a cup winning GM AND coach think twice about keeping over such crappy veterans, then maybe those prospects don't belong in the NHL anyway.
I'm not sure how closely you follow the Wings but we had the exact same problem with Nyquist, Tatar, and Sheahan and all have since proven capable of contributing at the NHL level. Now we've seen flashes of what Jurco can do, with a skill set that already surpasses Cleary's, and we're going to bury him back in Grand Rapids for the sake of "loyalty".

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Old
07-10-2014, 11:14 PM
  #59
GoAwayDanCleary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King'sPawn View Post
Can someone educate a simpleton like me why making decisions the fans aren't happy with, even though his team makes the playoffs, makes him a bad GM?

Shame on him for signing veterans who the young prospects will have to outplay during training camp to earn a spot.

Tell you what... if the prospects in the system aren't good enough to have a cup winning GM AND coach think twice about keeping over such crappy veterans, then maybe those prospects don't belong in the NHL anyway.

The Kings lost a "superstar prospect" Bud Holloway, who chose to sign in Sweden instead of competing with Ethan Moreau and Trent Hunter for a roster spot.

Maybe the youth you are all clamoring for doesn't belong in the NHL yet?
We heard this before last season. People saying how it wasn't a big deal that Cleary got Nyquist's roster spot because Gus isn't the savior, and how its no big deal that Tatar was a healthy scratch for the first dozen games. Look how that worked out?

I've seen enough of Tomas Jurco to assure you he's double the player Cleary is.

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Old
07-10-2014, 11:39 PM
  #60
Alexei Yashvalev
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Going forward Snow. Isles are 1 or 2 pieces from turning the corner in a big way. Holland seems committed to wasting whatever is left of Datsyuk, Zetterberg and Kronwall
The pieces that the Isles will never sign because Wang won't pay for them, I imagine.

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Old
07-10-2014, 11:49 PM
  #61
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
How, exactly, is it a debate?

One GM's team hasn't missed the playoffs in, what, 25 seasons? The other GM's team has made the playoffs once in, what, 5 or 6 seasons?

One GM has multiple Cup rings on his resume, the other has multiple top five picks on his resume.

One GM has a team that would turn heads if they missed the playoffs, while the other GM has a team that would turn heads if they actually made the playoffs.

I'm missing where the debate is.
one GM re-signed Dan Cleary

twice


the other did not


Snow wins by default

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Old
07-10-2014, 11:51 PM
  #62
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Very amusing.

I'm just glad Dallas nabbed one of the brains behind the Detroit juggernaut, Jim Nill.

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Old
07-10-2014, 11:53 PM
  #63
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Originally Posted by Brad Doty View Post
If you do anything in life for decades there are going to be ebbs and flows. Look at Lou and the Devils.

Hiring the right people is part of being a good GM, too. If you want to call that riding coattails, so be it.
That's actually a perfect example: Lou's been going downhill for a while now too.

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Old
07-11-2014, 12:03 AM
  #64
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Originally Posted by Mount Suribachi View Post
Nothing since 2005? Apart from WCF,champs, SCF for 3 straight years? With a team made up almost entirely of his draft picks, his trades, and his free agents. Change 2005 to 2010 and you have a point
and how many of the impact players on those teams were acquired after 2005? I would guess very few.

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Old
07-11-2014, 01:09 AM
  #65
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Originally Posted by Flowah View Post
I think you should compare post lockout only. Pre-lockout the Wings were backed by Illitch with no salary cap. It's completely different.

And one has to wonder how much of the team was built by Jim Nill. I suspect Stars fans are happy with him right now and would prefer Nill to a guy who is somehow still coasting on a reputation of being a good GM.

Holland started as a scout. I suspect that's why the team is so good at finding winners even while not getting high picks. But the other aspects of being a GM, like trades or UFA signings? He hasn't been good post lockout. It's just that simple. When you have big daddy Warbucks behind you with no cap, sure, he can land the deal. But since the rules changed?
The real issue IMO is that Ken Holland was the architect, but Jim Nill dealt with the people and the logistics of things. He negotiated contracts, talked to free agents, ran camp, and so on. Ryan Martin is proving to be another architect type, so there's nobody to really be that moderating/calming force in that front office right now. You've got Draper, but who knows what his style is or if he's even comfortable standing up to his boss quite yet. So what we've got is an organization that's trying to adapt on the fly, and it's rocky. They just now put Fischer fully in charge of development, and he's starting to do some great work. Hopefully that same process is happening in the front office, too, because it's mostly Holland and then some newer guys learning on the job.

I think historically the Wings' organization has done its best work with a braintrust composed of different but complementary types. When you start losing key parts of your braintrust to other teams, you end up having to change the way you run things. Right now we're seeing that Ken Holland isn't actually very good at running this thing by himself. I suspect that he doesn't actually like it this way. He needs a partner who complements him and moderates him. Who that's going to be is anyone's guess.

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Old
07-11-2014, 01:23 AM
  #66
Joffrey Baratheon
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Oh I get it.

What have you done for me lately?

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Old
07-11-2014, 02:00 AM
  #67
Mount Suribachi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
Holland. There is no debate whatsoever.

The guys record speaks for itself.

The Wings might be declining now but that is what happens when you draft late for 2 decades and don't happen to find any new superstars late in the draft recently like they were able to pull off in the past.
Actually, that's not the problem. In fact that has been the best part of his GM'ing the last 5 years and beyond. Both in Detroit, and in Grand Rapids, he has stockpiled good to very young players and prospects, without the benefit of those high draft picks. We're overflowing with prospects who even without Cleary and Quincey have nowhere to go. Re-signing those guys made it even worse. Last year we had Nyquist in the minors and Tatar on the bench at the start of the year, so Cleary, Bertuzzi and Samuelsson could show the whole world what happens when players who should retire continue to play in the NHL.
Again, that's not new. Holmstrom, Draper, Maltby and Chelios were all kept on 1-2 seasons too long out of "loyalty" when it was clear they were no longer effective at the NHL level.

The problem is his reluctance to make trades, and when he makes them, he overpays. Legwand for Jarnkrok and a 2nd? Legwand ended the season as a 4th line RW and is now a Senator. Kyle Quincey for a 1st? The last decent trade he made was for Brad Stuart. In 2008. SIX YEARS AGO!

As for free agency. Here's a list of his recent FA signings.


Jason Williams (2009) 44 Games, 6 Goals

Mike Modano (2010) 40 Games, 4 Goals

Mike Commodore (2011) 17 Games, 0 Goals, Traded

Ian White (2011) 32 points playing with Lidstrom. 4 points when Lidstrom retired.

Carlo Colaiacovo (2012) 6 Games, 1 Assist, Bought-Out despite being good when healthy, and a lack of depth on D, and especially guys who can move the puck.

Mikael Samuelsson (2012) 2 Years, 30 Games, 1 Goal. 6 million dollars.

Jordin Tootoo (2012) 53 Games, 9 Points, Sent to AHL. Bought out.

Daniel Cleary (2013) 52 Games, 4 Goals, Benched

Kyle Quincey (2014) Cost us a 1st rounder then given a raise.

Daniel Cleary (2014) $1.5m + $1m bonuses. No knees.

In 2009 he signed Hossa for 1 year (after Hossa rang him), and Alfie was realgud last year, can't deny those. But that's a long list of futility.

I've always been a Holland apologist but the last few years 80% of his moves have been terrible, and fans have called them terrible from the start. Right now it is only his drafting, and his patience with those draft picks, that is keeping us competitive. And I'm starting to wonder if its not patience, but the same kind of inertia and fear of change that cripples his trading and free agency, having an unintended positive benefit.

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Old
07-11-2014, 02:00 AM
  #68
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Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
Oh I get it.

What have you done for me lately?
Everyone on here always complains about this in the NHL the tip top of hockey totem,people expect the best and it should be provided... say player A isn't performing and player B is player b is obviously going to play, it's the nature of the business very cut and dry the best is going to stay around and others are not, it's the nature of pro sports and when this is ignored you end up with the Red Wings situation relying on the past performances to dictate the current product on the ice. Cleary isn't doing the best job he shouldn't be on the ice same with Quincey but they will be for now and holland should be held under the same circumstances even though it's not as easy to just change your gm so he should be held to and even higher standard for what's happening now. Furthermore the question even asks about right now It'd be a close call but there's a chance I choose snow right now not that he's done a better job but he's trying to make his team better complacency is not good at all


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Old
07-11-2014, 02:02 AM
  #69
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Originally Posted by Clamshells View Post
is it a coincidence that one has one of the best owners in the league while the other has one of the worst?
Wang being one of the worst is the reason why Snow is employed though. Never before has someone less qualified been a GM.

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Old
07-11-2014, 02:16 AM
  #70
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It's hard to compared Snow to most GM because it's like comparing Apples and oranges.

Snow's job basically is to find anyway possible to keep the payroll(not cap) as low as possible while fielding the most competitive team he can. Basically when you skimp out on stuff like players contract, coaching, etc chances of getting great results are going to be hard.

I think other then maybe Arizona, the Islanders are one of the only teams to out perform their operating budget every season for the last 7 years(mainly because the Islanders are always bottom 3 in operating budget if not last)


Last edited by boredmale: 07-11-2014 at 02:26 AM.
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Old
07-11-2014, 02:25 AM
  #71
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Come to think of it, Snow is an outstanding GM.

Multiple Stanley Cups, fantastic scouting and development. Even in relatively poor seasons they still make the playoffs.



Oh wait... I think Im confusing him with someone else.

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Old
07-11-2014, 03:15 AM
  #72
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Oh, and for all those saying "but Snow has to operate on a smaller budget", well telling Ken Holland that he has to trim the budget by $10M would actually be a blessing in disguise.

Buh-bye Stephen Weiss - 5 years, $25M
Buh-bye Jakob Kindl - 4 years, $9.6M
Buh-bye Kyle Quincey - 2 years $9M
Buh-bye Dan Cleary - 1 year $2.5M

$14M of cap space on those 4 players this season

Hello Jurco/Mantha/Marchenko/Oullet

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Old
07-11-2014, 03:20 AM
  #73
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Snow has a tough job. An owner that doesn't want to spend much on a team playing in a very old arena makes it hard to attract players.

Snow certainly has his fair share of mistakes, but at least he's trying to attract players to his team and if he didn't he'd get blamed for that.

The Vanek and Niederreiter messes were bad though.

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Old
07-11-2014, 04:20 AM
  #74
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Very amusing.

I'm just glad Dallas nabbed one of the brains behind the Detroit juggernaut, Jim Nill.
Beware though, Nill just signed Patty Eaves. Meaning there's a good chance he's got a Hollandized inner that will show up more and more as the years go by. Kenny started off by giving a two-way contract to Maltby, now he's turned to heavier stuff like trading 1st round picks for Quincey and signing Cleary(period).

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07-11-2014, 04:24 AM
  #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
How, exactly, is it a debate?

One GM's team hasn't missed the playoffs in, what, 25 seasons? The other GM's team has made the playoffs once in, what, 5 or 6 seasons?

One GM has multiple Cup rings on his resume, the other has multiple top five picks on his resume.

One GM has a team that would turn heads if they missed the playoffs, while the other GM has a team that would turn heads if they actually made the playoffs.

I'm missing where the debate is.
23 straight seasons in the Playoffs, but QFT. People need to stop whining about this offseason for the Red Wings. It's not always going to be perfect.

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