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National Hockey League Talk Discuss NHL players, teams, games, and the Stanley Cup Playoffs.

It's officially a debate: Ken Holland vs. Garth Snow

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Old
07-11-2014, 10:50 AM
  #101
King'sPawn
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I would sympathize with Red Wings fans more if, you know, they actually ENDURED a hockey season as bad as a season Isles, Panthers, or Oilers fans have had to endure, never mind the many years of futility.

It's sad people think this is a debate.

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07-11-2014, 10:51 AM
  #102
danyhabsfan
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What about Rutherford?

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07-11-2014, 10:52 AM
  #103
HockeyBuddha
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Since nill left, holland has signed cleary twice, trading a top 5 prospect and a 2nd rounder for a rental who wasn't very good, and gave a $4.25 mill contract to a dman who would've gotten $ 2 mill tops from any other team.

Nill turned his center duo of ribiero and ott into seguin and spezza.

Detroit fans have every reason to disrespect holland now.

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07-11-2014, 10:53 AM
  #104
Cursed Lemon
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MatthewBarnabysTears View Post
This was Holland's explanation:



Maybe I'm stupid, but that sounds like a good way to run a healthy organization. If it fails, which this probably will, what was really the risk? Cleary can be waived if he still sucks (and then given some other position with the organization). If people in the organization really respect Cleary so much, then there's a lot of value in not treating him like garbage on his way out the door.
Because it turns what should be a competitive environment into an old-boys-club where the running theme is not winning, but nepotism.

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07-11-2014, 10:57 AM
  #105
Mit Yarrum
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Snow is the worst GM in this league by a good green country mile.

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Old
07-11-2014, 11:00 AM
  #106
MatthewBarnabysTears
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbuffalo313 View Post
Just check the Vanek trade it was horrible. He also traded a pick for Boyle and then didn't even deal him. Those are two trades made this season that he basically got nothing out of
I'm fine with gambling and (sometimes) losing. The Boyle deal was a good faith effort to convince a free agent to come to the Islanders who might not have even considered them otherwise. Obviously he tried to trade him for another pick; the market just wasn't there closer to free agency.

Vanek is a similar deal. It was an acceptable gamble at the time it was made. It's a catastrophe now because Vanek's market collapsed following (1) the olympics and (2) the glut of forwards on the trade market on deadline day. It sucks that that's what happened, but it's not necessarily entirely Snow's fault and even if it is, I don't necessarily want him to overcompensate and become gunshy.

Trust me, Snow is not a great GM. There's tons of examples (he failed to acquire a goalie upgrade last offseason. he grossly mismanaged nino neiderreiter. he drafted only d-men one year!). i just don't think vanek and boyle are as big deals as they're made out to be

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07-11-2014, 11:02 AM
  #107
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I'm as furious at Holland as anyone, but the reality is that he is merely an ineffective GM rather than a horrible one.

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07-11-2014, 11:23 AM
  #108
TheStroker
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This is one of the worst threads I've ever seen started on this website.

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07-11-2014, 11:32 AM
  #109
Chardo
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To be fair, Garth has also locked up the following recent contracts:

John Tavares, 6 years @ $5.5M AAV
Frans Nielsen, 4 years @ 2.75M
Kyle Okposo, 5 years @ $2.8M
Travis Hamonic, 7 years @ $3.85M
Michael Grabner, 5 years @ $3M
Jaroslav Halak, 4 years @ $4.5M

Considering the insane contracts handed out by other teams recently, Garth has done a commendable job working within his budget constraints.

As for the celebrity death match, Garth's a pretty big dude. My money is on him.

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07-11-2014, 11:35 AM
  #110
MatthewBarnabysTears
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chardo View Post
To be fair, Garth has also locked up the following recent contracts:

John Tavares, 6 years @ $5.5M AAV
Frans Nielsen, 4 years @ 2.75M
Kyle Okposo, 5 years @ $2.8M
Travis Hamonic, 7 years @ $3.85M
Michael Grabner, 5 years @ $3M
Jaroslav Halak, 4 years @ $4.5M

Considering the insane contracts handed out by other teams recently, Garth has done a commendable job working within his budget constraints.

As for the celebrity death match, Garth's a pretty big dude. My money is on him.
i forgot the terms of that Hamonic deal. incredible. he could have probably gotten the same term and an extra million per year if he just waited until he was one season closer to UFA status.

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Old
07-11-2014, 12:35 PM
  #111
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I'd bet money that grand rapids could have beaten the islanders the last few years.

So there's that

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Old
07-11-2014, 12:39 PM
  #112
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Quote:
Originally Posted by King'sPawn View Post
I would sympathize with Red Wings fans more if, you know, they actually ENDURED a hockey season as bad as a season Isles, Panthers, or Oilers fans have had to endure, never mind the many years of futility.

It's sad people think this is a debate.

They were the dead wings for like 30 years lol, i mean most wings fans probably dont remember that but ye

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Old
07-11-2014, 12:41 PM
  #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
I think the Detroit fanbase would have gone full Jonestown if they had to deal with the roller coaster ride that is a Paul Holmgren GM tenure
Holmgren is at the complete opposite end of the spectrum to Holland. Holmgren likes to make a change if he wakes up and the grass is still green and the sky is still blue. Holland has become the most conservative, risk averse GM in the league. There is a sensible middle ground where you give your youngsters time to grow, where you don't blow the team up after every playoff exit - but likewise you prune the deadwood, and you are prepared to make changes that will make your team better.

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The entitlement is sickening. Holland is in the running for GOAT GMs. He has too long of a resume to come into discussions like this.
Entitlement? That "entitlement" was created by Ilitch and Bowman and Holland and Babcock. For years and years they created a culture where the only acceptable end to a season was the Stanley Cup. Our playoff streak is nice, but its not enough. Its not enough for Babcock, or Zetterberg, or Datsyuk who have all publicly complained in the last few years that our repeated playoff exits are not good enough and that the team has to be better. Becoming the Arsenal of the NHL is not good enough for an owner and a coach who believe in only one thing - winning.

As for his resume - I already said on a previous page, he's a sure fire HOFer, but post 2010 he has done nothing of note. He has allowed an aging roster to stagnate, and has held back, and continues to hold back all the great youngsters that he loves to talk about. The signing of Cleary gives us 14 forwards and all but guarantees that Jurco and Mantha will both start the season in the AHL, no matter how much better they are than any vet. The kids that came in and saved our season last year where only played because Holland absolutely had to. But he hasn't learnt that lesson. Instead he signs Dan Cleary, whose body is so broken down that many Wings fans doubt he could even compete in the AHL, and continues to block the youngsters that are better than him.

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Old
07-11-2014, 12:52 PM
  #114
Trottier
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Originally Posted by TheStroker View Post
This is one of the worst threads I've ever seen started on this website.
Agreed. It's painful to read, really.

The frustration of Wings fans is understandable. They have experienced a level of competitiveness unequaled by all other teams over the last several decades. So, another mere playoff appearance and a quiet postseason brings a critical eye toward their GM. A bit harsh, but understandable, and they know their team better than anyone else.

However....

When you go from that to comparing him to a GM yet to notch a single meaningful accomplishment in eight years at the helm....oy. And worse, a couple of posters genuinely give the nod to Snow!

Why stop there? It's officially a debate: Pavel Datsyuk vs. Casey Cizikas (4th line C on NYI).


Last edited by Trottier: 07-11-2014 at 06:12 PM.
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Old
07-11-2014, 01:06 PM
  #115
TehDoak
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No its not.

Holland has been the architect of 2 cup teams and has won 3.

Garth Snow...well hasn't done any of that.

The team he's built have made the playoffs once in a shortened season.

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Old
07-11-2014, 01:24 PM
  #116
billybudd
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Originally Posted by Beef Invictus View Post
Yes, everyone knows that signing Clearly for 1 year makes your whole career moot. Obviously. No overreaction here in the slightest, this is obviously a well-reasoned thread.
It's more than that. The whole idea of letting your prospects over-ripen is of dubious wisdom in recent years. It's backfired on both Holland and another practictioner, Ray Shero, who was fired, in part, because of his preference to sign expensive, crap veterans for roles he already had guys who could do more cheaply and capably (Lovejoy, Muzzin > Orpik, Scuderi). Holland paralleled this practice with signing Weiss when he already had Nyquist knocking on the door.

Holland has kept Bertuzzi and Cleary in big-minute roles for medium price tags long past their expiration dates. This can be argued to have cost them younger, better players like Filppulla (sp?) and Hudler, while pointlessly blocking other younger, better players like Nyquist, Tatar and Jurco.

As far as Garth Snow is concerned, that Moulson/Vanek situation was bad. Bad, bad, bad.

But what people don't realize is that Holland did something equally foolish with Quincey. Waived him then, ultimately, traded a first round pick to get him back. Quincey's worth a 3rd rounder. At best.

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07-11-2014, 02:37 PM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Sidney the Kidney View Post
Jester, you misread my intent (or I wasn't clear on my meaning) behind that list of names Snow signed. It was in regards to the poster I quoted (either in that post or a previous one -- can't look back now that I'm already responding) talking about Holland signing guys like Cleary and Quincey, as a roundabout way of saying Holland's doing a bad job. I was just pointing out that Snow also has a list of players he's signed that were of the Cleary/Quincey variety as well. So it's not like Snow's got the edge over Holland in that regard (ie. avoiding signing bad players).
Fair enough

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Originally Posted by Fish on The Sand View Post
Wang being one of the worst is the reason why Snow is employed though. Never before has someone less qualified been a GM.
Here's another example of the double standard the Islanders have to deal with.

Snow is somehow an idiot, apparently because he was a former player?

Yzerman? Sakic? Hextall? Loved

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07-11-2014, 02:46 PM
  #118
Jester9881
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Originally Posted by ronnyweed View Post
I'd bet money that grand rapids could have beaten the islanders the last few years.

So there's that
They might have actually fared better, you're right.... the Wings couldn't have been much worse against the Islanders in that time span.

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07-11-2014, 02:48 PM
  #119
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Admittedly the original comparison to Garth was mostly in jest; however I do think it deserves a real comparison since the 2009 season and especially since Lidstrom's retirement.

Both GM's have essentially been given the pen to write their own ticket out of town, and despite the very obvious contrast in the states of these franchises I would argue that since 2009 Holland has not been any better than Snow.

Obviously before that their resumes speak for themselves, but generally speaking I think the islanders are perceived to be on the upswing, whereas the wings are barely treading water.

Look at the state of the Calgary flames-- they dwindled on the borderline of making the playoffs for years. They never put the pieces together and they were forced to let Iginla go and watch their Goalie retire. Now despite the fact that they're a hard working team they aren't serious contenders.

The Wings are well on their way to drowning in flames themselves, especially with Datsyuk and Zetterberg hitting their twilight years. Sure the wings are a better team than the Islanders, but given Holland's recent track record if he were the GM of the Islanders I'm not sure he would be doing better than Garth.

What have you done for me lately?

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Old
07-11-2014, 02:52 PM
  #120
Fedorov
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There is enough talent to still press for the playoffs but I think people are only just now starting to realize how far the team has fallen. Its not as if they don't have young talent, its the talent they sign to play instead of the younger players that is the real head scratcher.

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07-11-2014, 02:57 PM
  #121
Jester9881
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Two GM's in two completely different situations. I don't see how or why anyone would compare the two.

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07-11-2014, 03:21 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
Two GM's in two completely different situations. I don't see how or why anyone would compare the two.
Totally right. Much harder to keep a winning core around some aging players than it is to collect a bunch of high draft picks and have the salary floor force you to make some signings.

NYI fans who remember the mid-late 80's, OTOH, have more of an idea what DET fans are going through. As a conference rival, here's hoping that Nyquist is the Red Wing's Mikko Makela.

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07-11-2014, 03:26 PM
  #123
LuG61
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Really? Someone went a little overboard. Shows how spoiled wings fans have been when threads like this get made.

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07-11-2014, 03:32 PM
  #124
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Originally Posted by gretskidoo View Post
1st for Quincey!

Hey! That's Kyle Quincey, a player worth $4.5M per year! Obviously if he gets a contract like that, he must have been worth the first round pick!

BTW, I actually think Snow deserves a better reputation than he has. He's been amazing at re-signing players in a market where free agents won't easily come, and has managed to slowly put together a pretty good roster in the worst possible conditions in terms of free agent reputation and resources made available by management.

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07-11-2014, 03:36 PM
  #125
MatthewBarnabysTears
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jester9881 View Post
Fair enough



Here's another example of the double standard the Islanders have to deal with.

Snow is somehow an idiot, apparently because he was a former player?

Yzerman? Sakic? Hextall? Loved
At least some of those guys (hextall at least) did gain front office experience in between playing and being a GM. And none of these former players was plucked from the active roster pre-retirement. I'll defend Snow from some of the criticism he gets from non-Isles fans that mostly belongs on Charles Wang, but the circumstances of Snow's hire was a ****-show that is still without precedent.

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